Dear Newsgroup ~
The National Archives catalogue includes over 14,000 abstracts of an
archival collection known to us as "Ancient Petitions." This important
collection can be accessed either through the main National Archives
catalogue or through a subsidiary web page at the following two
weblinks:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... ueryType=1
I recommend using the first weblink above, as I have encountered
problems with the search engine on the second weblink.
Included among the abstracts of Ancient Petitions is one written by a
certain Edmund [allegedly Edmund of Langley] to King Edward III in
1354. I've copied below the actual catalogue abstract of this
document.
The modern abstract refers to Edmund [of Langley], [John de Warenne],
Earl of Warenne; Norman de Swyneford; Countess of Warenne and wife of
Norman de Swyneford; John Brewes, late husband of the Countess of
Warenne.
I've reviewed the oroginal petition online and find that it differs
significantly from the modern abstract below. The document is written
in French. The petition mentions Edmund [no surname], the Earl of
Warenne; his wife the Countess of Warenne; Sir Norman de Swyneford;
and, finally, the wife of Norman de Swyneford, who was late the wife of
John de Brewes. It does not in any way identify either Norman de
Swyneford or John de Brewes as the husband of the Countess of Warenne
as suggested by the modern abstract.
In point of fact, Joan de Bar, Countess of Warenne, survived the death
of her husband the earl in 1347. She died 31 August 1361 as his widow,
having never remarried, and was buried abroad in the collegial church
of St. Maxe in Bar. Elsewhere, Sir Norman de Swynford is known to have
married Margaret de Trehampton (died 1354) [see Cal. I.P.M. vol. 10,
no. 211], widow of Sir John de Brewes (died 1342) [see Early Yorkshire
Charters, vol. 5, pg. 242]. For a brief history of Sir Norman de
Swynford, see Bentley, Excerpta Historica (1833): 157, footnote 2
(available through google book search).
Lastly, although some genealogists are fond of spelling the surname
Braose, the name "de Brewes" as it appears in this document was the
typical spelling of this family's name in this time period.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives catalogue
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)
SC 8/246/12284
Scope and content
Petitioners: Edmund [of Langley].
Addressees: King.
Places mentioned: Sowerbyshire, [West Riding of Yorkshire]; Holmfirth,
[West Riding of Yorkshire].
Other people mentioned: [John de Warenne], earl of Warenne; Norman de
Swyneford; Countess of Warenne and wife of Norman de Swyneford; John de
Brewes, late husband of the countess of Warenne.
Nature of request: Langley requests that the council are ordered not to
allow any assize to pass against him or the countess at the suit of
Swyneford who by deceit has attempted to recover the countess's dower,
and he further requests that if anything has begun in attaint that it
be hastily repealed.
Endorsement: [None].
Covering dates [1354]
Note: The petition is dated to 1354 on the basis of the date '27 Edw.
3' stamped on the guard of the warrant, the warrant bearing the date 16
January (C 81/1333/69).
Ancient Petition Corrections: The false husbands of Joan de
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: Ancient Petition Corrections: The false husbands of Joan
Greetings, Douglas, et al!
I really should stop trying to read these things after midnight...
But, if you check R E G Cole's "Manor and Rectory of Kettlethorpe", I
think you will find the answer to your conundrum below.
Apparently Norman (or his father) is supposed to have married off a
sister/other female relative to Braose (and they had offspring), but
due to the male de Braose's supposed "idiocy", Norman and his heirs
were left to enjoy the Braose inheritance. Later, it is found that
Braose was NOT an idiot, and Norman and his heirs were ordered to make
recompense.
I think you are right (via a private email) that the shared wife
(between the elder Braose and Norman Swynford) was Margaret Trehampton,
whose family I believe financed Lincolnshire commemorative stained
glass.
When pressed, at the right (non-after midnight hour) hour, I could
probably dig up appropriate references.
Sleepily yours,
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com
Douglas Richardson wrote:
I really should stop trying to read these things after midnight...
But, if you check R E G Cole's "Manor and Rectory of Kettlethorpe", I
think you will find the answer to your conundrum below.
Apparently Norman (or his father) is supposed to have married off a
sister/other female relative to Braose (and they had offspring), but
due to the male de Braose's supposed "idiocy", Norman and his heirs
were left to enjoy the Braose inheritance. Later, it is found that
Braose was NOT an idiot, and Norman and his heirs were ordered to make
recompense.
I think you are right (via a private email) that the shared wife
(between the elder Braose and Norman Swynford) was Margaret Trehampton,
whose family I believe financed Lincolnshire commemorative stained
glass.
When pressed, at the right (non-after midnight hour) hour, I could
probably dig up appropriate references.
Sleepily yours,
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
The National Archives catalogue includes over 14,000 abstracts of an
archival collection known to us as "Ancient Petitions." This important
collection can be accessed either through the main National Archives
catalogue or through a subsidiary web page at the following two
weblinks:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... ueryType=1
I recommend using the first weblink above, as I have encountered
problems with the search engine on the second weblink.
Included among the abstracts of Ancient Petitions is one written by a
certain Edmund [allegedly Edmund of Langley] to King Edward III in
1354. I've copied below the actual catalogue abstract of this
document.
The modern abstract refers to Edmund [of Langley], [John de Warenne],
Earl of Warenne; Norman de Swyneford; Countess of Warenne and wife of
Norman de Swyneford; John Brewes, late husband of the Countess of
Warenne.
I've reviewed the oroginal petition online and find that it differs
significantly from the modern abstract below. The document is written
in French. The petition mentions Edmund [no surname], the Earl of
Warenne; his wife the Countess of Warenne; Sir Norman de Swyneford;
and, finally, the wife of Norman de Swyneford, who was late the wife of
John de Brewes. It does not in any way identify either Norman de
Swyneford or John de Brewes as the husband of the Countess of Warenne
as suggested by the modern abstract.
In point of fact, Joan de Bar, Countess of Warenne, survived the death
of her husband the earl in 1347. She died 31 August 1361 as his widow,
having never remarried, and was buried abroad in the collegial church
of St. Maxe in Bar. Elsewhere, Sir Norman de Swynford is known to have
married Margaret de Trehampton (died 1354) [see Cal. I.P.M. vol. 10,
no. 211], widow of Sir John de Brewes (died 1342) [see Early Yorkshire
Charters, vol. 5, pg. 242]. For a brief history of Sir Norman de
Swynford, see Bentley, Excerpta Historica (1833): 157, footnote 2
(available through google book search).
Lastly, although some genealogists are fond of spelling the surname
Braose, the name "de Brewes" as it appears in this document was the
typical spelling of this family's name in this time period.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives catalogue
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)
SC 8/246/12284
Scope and content
Petitioners: Edmund [of Langley].
Addressees: King.
Places mentioned: Sowerbyshire, [West Riding of Yorkshire]; Holmfirth,
[West Riding of Yorkshire].
Other people mentioned: [John de Warenne], earl of Warenne; Norman de
Swyneford; Countess of Warenne and wife of Norman de Swyneford; John de
Brewes, late husband of the countess of Warenne.
Nature of request: Langley requests that the council are ordered not to
allow any assize to pass against him or the countess at the suit of
Swyneford who by deceit has attempted to recover the countess's dower,
and he further requests that if anything has begun in attaint that it
be hastily repealed.
Endorsement: [None].
Covering dates [1354]
Note: The petition is dated to 1354 on the basis of the date '27 Edw.
3' stamped on the guard of the warrant, the warrant bearing the date 16
January (C 81/1333/69).