Translation of Latin
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Translation of Latin
The hard part of medieval Latin is the common uses of abbreviations.
"Commissa fuit Admi:' bonorum at Callorum' / Marie Hopkins nuper de
Hursley vid' defunctae/
Roberto Lye vir gard de hursly et/ Thome Syms vir supravisor per
pauper'/ {--} {--} de par[--] duran' minor'/
Constance, Elizebeth et Egidij liberor'/dicti deft' duodecimo die maij/
Anno Dni' 1613 de bene &c personalir' iur' &c/ salve iure cuiuscumq'
salvaq' potesate &c'"
The words I'm having problems with are Callorum' and gard. Otherwise I
understand the gist of this document.
"Commissa fuit Admi:' bonorum at Callorum' / Marie Hopkins nuper de
Hursley vid' defunctae/
Roberto Lye vir gard de hursly et/ Thome Syms vir supravisor per
pauper'/ {--} {--} de par[--] duran' minor'/
Constance, Elizebeth et Egidij liberor'/dicti deft' duodecimo die maij/
Anno Dni' 1613 de bene &c personalir' iur' &c/ salve iure cuiuscumq'
salvaq' potesate &c'"
The words I'm having problems with are Callorum' and gard. Otherwise I
understand the gist of this document.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Translation of Latin
Dear Martin ~
If the date of this administration is 1613, this isn't medieval Latin.
I believe the time period is Early Modern.
DR
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
If the date of this administration is 1613, this isn't medieval Latin.
I believe the time period is Early Modern.
DR
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
The hard part of medieval Latin is the common uses of abbreviations.
"Commissa fuit Admi:' bonorum at Callorum' / Marie Hopkins nuper de
Hursley vid' defunctae/
Roberto Lye vir gard de hursly et/ Thome Syms vir supravisor per
pauper'/ {--} {--} de par[--] duran' minor'/
Constance, Elizebeth et Egidij liberor'/dicti deft' duodecimo die maij/
Anno Dni' 1613 de bene &c personalir' iur' &c/ salve iure cuiuscumq'
salvaq' potesate &c'"
The words I'm having problems with are Callorum' and gard. Otherwise I
understand the gist of this document.
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Translation of Latin (admon for Mary Hopkins)
In article <1168306491.103741.5940@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
Fascinating. This is the administration clause for the estate of Mary,
first wife of Stephen Hopkins of _Mayflower_. Is this a new find? Why
was she called a widow?
"Callorum'" is not a word fitting here. The formula here is ordinarily:
"Commissa fuit administratio bonorum iurium et creditorum..." ("the
administration of the goods, debts [is this not a post-medieval
transference of meaning of 'ius' to 'judgments' and hence to
'obligations' or debts generally?] and credits of N has been
commissioned..."
'Gard' for 'guardian I suspect but cannot correct without the image. Is
it that Robert Lye is appointed guardian, and Thomas Syms supervisor of
the minor children, who are of course Constance, Elizabeth and Giles?
I have been working on lots of sixteenth- and early seventeenth-century
wills & probate documents and can go over this with you closely offline
if you like.
PS right now I'm typesetting corrections for the third printing of your
book...
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
The hard part of medieval Latin is the common uses of abbreviations.
"Commissa fuit Admi:' bonorum at Callorum' / Marie Hopkins nuper de
Hursley vid' defunctae/
Roberto Lye vir gard de hursly et/ Thome Syms vir supravisor per
pauper'/ {--} {--} de par[--] duran' minor'/
Constance, Elizebeth et Egidij liberor'/dicti deft' duodecimo die maij/
Anno Dni' 1613 de bene &c personalir' iur' &c/ salve iure cuiuscumq'
salvaq' potesate &c'"
The words I'm having problems with are Callorum' and gard. Otherwise I
understand the gist of this document.
Fascinating. This is the administration clause for the estate of Mary,
first wife of Stephen Hopkins of _Mayflower_. Is this a new find? Why
was she called a widow?
"Callorum'" is not a word fitting here. The formula here is ordinarily:
"Commissa fuit administratio bonorum iurium et creditorum..." ("the
administration of the goods, debts [is this not a post-medieval
transference of meaning of 'ius' to 'judgments' and hence to
'obligations' or debts generally?] and credits of N has been
commissioned..."
'Gard' for 'guardian I suspect but cannot correct without the image. Is
it that Robert Lye is appointed guardian, and Thomas Syms supervisor of
the minor children, who are of course Constance, Elizabeth and Giles?
I have been working on lots of sixteenth- and early seventeenth-century
wills & probate documents and can go over this with you closely offline
if you like.
PS right now I'm typesetting corrections for the third printing of your
book...
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
-
Gjest
Re: Translation of Latin (admon for Mary Hopkins)
No this was already known and cited in an article, but in English.
Scott Bartley now has the original and we wanted a good translation.
Hopkins was bound for Virginia in 1608 when he was shipwrecked on
Bermuda for a year. He then went to Jamestown for a while. He was
presumed dead in this document. He comes back to England to claim the
chidlren and remarry Elizabeth Fisher.
On Jan 8, 9:38 pm, Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltay...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Scott Bartley now has the original and we wanted a good translation.
Hopkins was bound for Virginia in 1608 when he was shipwrecked on
Bermuda for a year. He then went to Jamestown for a while. He was
presumed dead in this document. He comes back to England to claim the
chidlren and remarry Elizabeth Fisher.
On Jan 8, 9:38 pm, Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltay...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
In article <1168306491.103741.5...@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
mholl...@mac.com wrote:
The hard part of medieval Latin is the common uses of abbreviations.
"Commissa fuit Admi:' bonorum at Callorum' / Marie Hopkins nuper de
Hursley vid' defunctae/
Roberto Lye vir gard de hursly et/ Thome Syms vir supravisor per
pauper'/ {--} {--} de par[--] duran' minor'/
Constance, Elizebeth et Egidij liberor'/dicti deft' duodecimo die maij/
Anno Dni' 1613 de bene &c personalir' iur' &c/ salve iure cuiuscumq'
salvaq' potesate &c'"
The words I'm having problems with are Callorum' and gard. Otherwise I
understand the gist of this document.Fascinating. This is the administration clause for the estate of Mary,
first wife of Stephen Hopkins of _Mayflower_. Is this a new find? Why
was she called a widow?
"Callorum'" is not a word fitting here. The formula here is ordinarily:
"Commissa fuit administratio bonorum iurium et creditorum..." ("the
administration of the goods, debts [is this not a post-medieval
transference of meaning of 'ius' to 'judgments' and hence to
'obligations' or debts generally?] and credits of N has been
commissioned..."
'Gard' for 'guardian I suspect but cannot correct without the image. Is
it that Robert Lye is appointed guardian, and Thomas Syms supervisor of
the minor children, who are of course Constance, Elizabeth and Giles?
I have been working on lots of sixteenth- and early seventeenth-century
wills & probate documents and can go over this with you closely offline
if you like.
PS right now I'm typesetting corrections for the third printing of your
book...
Nat Taylorhttp://www.nltaylor.net
-
Gjest
Re: Translation of Latin
You're right. I was just distinguishing the Latin usage since I live
with a classical Latin scholar who isn't being much help with the
translation!! So, it's legal, British Latin of the early modern period
and Catullus is not helping.
On Jan 8, 9:28 pm, "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
with a classical Latin scholar who isn't being much help with the
translation!! So, it's legal, British Latin of the early modern period
and Catullus is not helping.
On Jan 8, 9:28 pm, "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Martin ~
If the date of this administration is 1613, this isn't medieval Latin.
I believe the time period is Early Modern.
DR
mholl...@mac.com wrote:
The hard part of medieval Latin is the common uses of abbreviations.
"Commissa fuit Admi:' bonorum at Callorum' / Marie Hopkins nuper de
Hursley vid' defunctae/
Roberto Lye vir gard de hursly et/ Thome Syms vir supravisor per
pauper'/ {--} {--} de par[--] duran' minor'/
Constance, Elizebeth et Egidij liberor'/dicti deft' duodecimo die maij/
Anno Dni' 1613 de bene &c personalir' iur' &c/ salve iure cuiuscumq'
salvaq' potesate &c'"
The words I'm having problems with are Callorum' and gard. Otherwise I
understand the gist of this document.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Translation of Latin
Dear Martin ~
I believe you have misread the word "creditorum" as "Callorum." You
want to check the original again and get back to us?
DR
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
I believe you have misread the word "creditorum" as "Callorum." You
want to check the original again and get back to us?
DR
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
The hard part of medieval Latin is the common uses of abbreviations.
"Commissa fuit Admi:' bonorum at Callorum' / Marie Hopkins nuper de
Hursley vid' defunctae/
Roberto Lye vir gard de hursly et/ Thome Syms vir supravisor per
pauper'/ {--} {--} de par[--] duran' minor'/
Constance, Elizebeth et Egidij liberor'/dicti deft' duodecimo die maij/
Anno Dni' 1613 de bene &c personalir' iur' &c/ salve iure cuiuscumq'
salvaq' potesate &c'"
The words I'm having problems with are Callorum' and gard. Otherwise I
understand the gist of this document.
-
Matt Tompkins
Re: Translation of Latin
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
A phrase commonly seen in grants of probate and other testamentary
records of this period is 'bonorum et catallorum' = goods and chattels.
Matt Tompkins
"Commissa fuit Admi:' bonorum at Callorum' / Marie Hopkins nuper de
Hursley vid' defunctae/
A phrase commonly seen in grants of probate and other testamentary
records of this period is 'bonorum et catallorum' = goods and chattels.
Matt Tompkins
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Translation of Latin
In article <1168339169.917292.101800@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,
"Matt Tompkins" <mllt1@le.ac.uk> wrote:
Yes, I would bet that's what it is here.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
"Matt Tompkins" <mllt1@le.ac.uk> wrote:
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
"Commissa fuit Admi:' bonorum at Callorum' / Marie Hopkins nuper de
Hursley vid' defunctae/
... 'bonorum et catallorum' ...
Yes, I would bet that's what it is here.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
-
Gjest
Re: Translation of Latin
Many thanks Matt, Doug, and Nat. You've solved that.
Martin
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
Martin
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
In article <1168339169.917292.101800@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,
"Matt Tompkins" <mllt1@le.ac.uk> wrote:
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
"Commissa fuit Admi:' bonorum at Callorum' / Marie Hopkins nuper de
Hursley vid' defunctae/
... 'bonorum et catallorum' ...
Yes, I would bet that's what it is here.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
-
mep33
Re: Translation of Latin
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
I am a descendant of Stephen HOPKINS through his daughter Constance.
Is it possible for you to show the complete record and the translation
,-or tell us where this record was found?
Thank you
M Perry
> > http://www.nltaylor.net
Many thanks Matt, Doug, and Nat. You've solved that.
Martin
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
In article <1168339169.917292.101800@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,
"Matt Tompkins" <mllt1@le.ac.uk> wrote:
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
"Commissa fuit Admi:' bonorum at Callorum' / Marie Hopkins nuper de
Hursley vid' defunctae/
... 'bonorum et catallorum' ...
Yes, I would bet that's what it is here.
Nat Taylor
I am a descendant of Stephen HOPKINS through his daughter Constance.
Is it possible for you to show the complete record and the translation
,-or tell us where this record was found?
Thank you
M Perry
> > http://www.nltaylor.net
-
Chris Pitt Lewis
Re: Translation of Latin
In message <1168353200.930732.257610@s80g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
mhollick@mac.com writes
The other difficulty was with "Roberto Lye vir gard de hursly et/ Thome
Syms vir supravisor per pauper'/ {--} {--} de par[--]".
Under the Poor Law Act of 1601 the churchwardens and "four, three or two
substantial householders" were to be nominated by every parish each year
as Overseers of the Poor.
I imagine therefore that "gard" is an abbreviation of "gardianus" and
"vir gard de Hursly" should be translated as "(church)warden of
Hursley". "Vir supravisor per pauper' " is clearly "overseer of the
poor". I don't know what the missing words following might be, but could
"de par {---}" be "de par[ochia] eadem" - "of the same parish"?
This implies that the responsibility for maintaining the (supposedly)
orphaned children had been assumed by the parish, and that Lye and Syms
were acting on behalf of all the Overseers in obtaining letters of
administration, so that the mother's estate could be used for the
purpose.
It would be worth checking whether there are any surviving churchwardens
or overseers accounts for Hursley from this early period (probably
unlikely) or (in case there was a dispute between the Overseers and
Stephen Hopkins when he returned) whether there are any surviving
Quarter sessions records for Hampshire for the 1613-1620 period.
--
Chris Pitt Lewis
mhollick@mac.com writes
Many thanks Matt, Doug, and Nat. You've solved that.
Martin
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
In article <1168339169.917292.101800@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,
"Matt Tompkins" <mllt1@le.ac.uk> wrote:
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
"Commissa fuit Admi:' bonorum at Callorum' / Marie Hopkins nuper de
Hursley vid' defunctae/
... 'bonorum et catallorum' ...
Yes, I would bet that's what it is here.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
The other difficulty was with "Roberto Lye vir gard de hursly et/ Thome
Syms vir supravisor per pauper'/ {--} {--} de par[--]".
Under the Poor Law Act of 1601 the churchwardens and "four, three or two
substantial householders" were to be nominated by every parish each year
as Overseers of the Poor.
I imagine therefore that "gard" is an abbreviation of "gardianus" and
"vir gard de Hursly" should be translated as "(church)warden of
Hursley". "Vir supravisor per pauper' " is clearly "overseer of the
poor". I don't know what the missing words following might be, but could
"de par {---}" be "de par[ochia] eadem" - "of the same parish"?
This implies that the responsibility for maintaining the (supposedly)
orphaned children had been assumed by the parish, and that Lye and Syms
were acting on behalf of all the Overseers in obtaining letters of
administration, so that the mother's estate could be used for the
purpose.
It would be worth checking whether there are any surviving churchwardens
or overseers accounts for Hursley from this early period (probably
unlikely) or (in case there was a dispute between the Overseers and
Stephen Hopkins when he returned) whether there are any surviving
Quarter sessions records for Hampshire for the 1613-1620 period.
--
Chris Pitt Lewis