Eudes de Roncherolles, kinsman of Jeanne de Dammartin, Count

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Douglas Richardson

Eudes de Roncherolles, kinsman of Jeanne de Dammartin, Count

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 08 jan 2007 15:05:53

Dear Newsgroup ~

Some years ago, John Carmi Parsons enquired about a certain Eudes de
Roncherolles, who he noted was styled "kinsman" [consanguineus] in
records by Jeanne de Dammartin, Countess of Ponthieu, in 1256. Mr.
Parsons believed that this kinship might help identity the family of
the wife of Count Aubrey I of Dammartin (he died c.1181/82). Jeanne de
Dammartin is better known to most newsgroup members as the mother of
Queen Eleanor of Castile, wife of King Edward I of England. Count
Aubrey I of Dammartin was the great-grandfather of Countess Jeanne.
His wife's identity is unknown.

Interestingly, I recently found a reference to an earlier Eudes de
Roncherolles who witnessed a charter in 1174 for Raoul I, Count of
Clermont-en-Beauvaisis, Constable of France [Reference: Eugène de
Lépinois, Recherches historiques et critiques sur l'ancien comté et
les comtes de Clermont en Beauvoisis (1877): 339]. Count Raoul I was
the brother of Mahaut de Clermont, wife of Aubrey II, Count of
Dammartin, which Mahaut was the paternal grandmother of Jeanne de
Dammartin, Countess of Ponthieu. The same Eudes de Roncherolles
likewise witnessed a charter in 1177 with Count Aubrey I of Dammartin
for Eudes' own niece, Hersende, wife of Anselme dit le Veau, and
daughter of Dreux, seigneur of Cressonsacq, by his wife, Émeline de
Roncherolles [Reference: Eugène de Lépinois, Recherches historiques
et critiques sur l'ancien comté et les comtes de Clermont en
Beauvoisis (1877): 434-435, citing Cartulaire d'Ourscamps, pg. 191].

If any event, does anyone know the source which Mr. Parsons used to
identify Eudes de Roncherolles as the kinsman of Jeanne de Dammartin?
Any further information or thoughts on this line would be appreciated.

Best always, Douglas RIchardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + +
COPY OF ORIGINAL POST BY JOHN CARMI PARSONS

I wonder if anyone has any information on what may be a significant
link of kinship between the 13th-century Dammartins and the
Roncherolles family. I say "significant" because it may help us to
identify the family of the wife of Count Aubrey I of Dammartin (d.c.
1181/82).

In a document of 1256, Aubrey I's great-granddaughter Jeanne, countess
of Ponthieu and dowager queen of Castile, refers to one Eudes de
Roncherolles as her *consanguineus* when she attorned him in her place
regarding a legal dispute she had with the mayor and echevins of
Montreuil. Subsequently, again calling him *consanguineus*, she
granted him a yearly pension that
he was still receiving after Jeanne died in 1279.

I have been unable to verify any relationship between the Dammartin and
Roncherolles families through the well-attested marriage of Jeanne's
parents Marie Talvas, countess of Ponthieu (d.1251), to Simon (d.
1239), younger son of Count Aubrey II of Dammartin (d. 1200), nor
through Aubrey II's equally well-attested marriage to Mathilde of
Clermont-en-Beauvaisis (fl. 1218).

The link might however have come through Aubrey II's mother. The
marriages of Aubrey I are, like his parentage, obscure but it seems
plausible that the mother of Aubrey II was the Maud with whom Aubrey
attested in 1147. The mother certainly cannot have been Aubrey's later
wife Joan Basset of Piddington, and probably was not Amicia, dowager
countess of Leicester (if he did marry her).

Unfortunately none of the published Roncherolles genealogies I've been
able to consult include this Eudes, who may have passed most of his
adult life in Ponthieu serving Jeanne and her family, and hence
disappeared from the local records his family generated. Consequently
it's difficult to pin down any descents exactly but there are some
possibilities, none of which I've so far been able to authenticate:

Obviously the first is that Aubrey I married a lady of the Roncherolles
family. Tempting, but no proof.

Marriages indicated in the Roncherolles family in the generations just
before Eudes' time include that of Roger de Roncherolles III (fl.
1206-07) to Jeanne Clement du Mez. The name Aubrey occurs in that
family, and this might explain its appearance in the Dammartin family,
though of course it is known that the Dammartins were also related to
the lords of Mello, and the name Aubrey appears
in that line too. It's not possible that the name Aubrey migrated into
the Clement family through the Dammartin marriage, though; there was an
Aubrey in the Clement family very early in the 12th century, well
before Aubrey I of Dammartin could have married.

William de Roncherolles II (fl. 1220) is said in the original (1770)
edition of Aubert de la Chenaye des Bois to have married a Crequy,
though her name and paternity are not indicated. If Eudes de
Roncherolles were a son of that marriage, then Aubrey I of Dammartin
might have married a Crequy. The Crequy descent in the Badier edition
of Aubert does not, however, mention the wife of
William de Roncherolles II, nor does it indicate a Crequy-Dammartin
marriage.

Any further information or thoughts on this line would be appreciated.
Jeanne de Dammartin was, of course, the mother of Edward I's wife
Eleanor of Castile (yeah, her), so we are dealing here with possible
ancestral lines for many of us.

John P.

Peter Stewart

Re: Eudes de Roncherolles, kinsman of Jeanne de Dammartin, C

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 jan 2007 12:04:27

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1168265153.086216.128650@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~

Some years ago, John Carmi Parsons enquired about a certain Eudes
de Roncherolles, who he noted was styled "kinsman" [consanguineus]
in records by Jeanne de Dammartin, Countess of Ponthieu, in 1256.

<snip>

If any event, does anyone know the source which Mr. Parsons used to
identify Eudes de Roncherolles as the kinsman of Jeanne de Dammartin?

There are two such documents, both printed in _Recueil des actes des comtes
de Pontieu (1026-1279)_, edited by Clovis Brunel (Paris, 1930).

The one of 1256 is dated 23 August ("Johanna, Dei gratia regina Castelle et
Legionis, Pontivi et Monsteroli comitissa...dilectum consanguineum nostrum
dominum Odonem de Ronquereles, militem", no. 400 pp. 551-552); and the other
is dated April 1257 ("Johanna, Dei gracia Castelle et Legionis regina,
Pontivi et Moustreoli comitissa...dedimus et concessimus dilecto et fideli
consanguineo nostro domino Odoni de Ranqueroles, militi, pro serviciis que
nobis et terre nostre fideliter impendebat, villam de Torto Monte...", no.
402 pp. 553-554).

Peter Stewart

Douglas Richardson

Re: Eudes de Roncherolles, kinsman of Jeanne de Dammartin, C

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 09 jan 2007 15:11:46

Dear Peter ~

Thank you for providing the exact citations from Brunel regarding
Jeanne de Dammartin's kinsman, Sir Eudes de Roncherolles. Much
appreciated.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Peter Stewart wrote:
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1168265153.086216.128650@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~

Some years ago, John Carmi Parsons enquired about a certain Eudes
de Roncherolles, who he noted was styled "kinsman" [consanguineus]
in records by Jeanne de Dammartin, Countess of Ponthieu, in 1256.

snip

If any event, does anyone know the source which Mr. Parsons used to
identify Eudes de Roncherolles as the kinsman of Jeanne de Dammartin?

There are two such documents, both printed in _Recueil des actes des comtes
de Pontieu (1026-1279)_, edited by Clovis Brunel (Paris, 1930).

The one of 1256 is dated 23 August ("Johanna, Dei gratia regina Castelle et
Legionis, Pontivi et Monsteroli comitissa...dilectum consanguineum nostrum
dominum Odonem de Ronquereles, militem", no. 400 pp. 551-552); and the other
is dated April 1257 ("Johanna, Dei gracia Castelle et Legionis regina,
Pontivi et Moustreoli comitissa...dedimus et concessimus dilecto et fideli
consanguineo nostro domino Odoni de Ranqueroles, militi, pro serviciis que
nobis et terre nostre fideliter impendebat, villam de Torto Monte...", no.
402 pp. 553-554).

Peter Stewart

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