Otgiva of Luxemburg - Revisited

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Steve Barnhoorn

Otgiva of Luxemburg - Revisited

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 05 jan 2007 17:17:10

From: Peter Stewart - view profile
Date: Tues, May 14 2002 11:36 pm
Email: "Peter Stewart" <peter.stew...@crsrehab.gov.au>
Groups: soc.genealogy.medieval


I'm not sure which of the following primary sources you have already
consulted, but the first reference in conjunction with the later ones
may be useful - GE Cokayne in *The Seize Quartiers of the Kings and
Queens of England* First Series, in _The Genealogist_ New Series 9
(1893), in a note on the parentage of Baldwin V, count of Flanders,
quoted:

"Ego Balduinis Flandrorum Comes, Balduini Barbati et Ogivae
Lussemburgensis Comitissae filius, notum....(Cartul. of the Abbey of
Marchiennes--Carpentier, Cambresis, preuves, p. 6)"

Peter: ....(Cartul. of the Abbey of Marchiennes--Carpentier,
Cambresis, preuves, p. 6); do you have the full title on this source?
Can't seem to locate this in any library.

Thanks.

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg - Revisited

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 05 jan 2007 18:34:41

On 5 Jan 2007 08:17:10 -0800, "Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com>
wrote:

Peter: ....(Cartul. of the Abbey of Marchiennes--Carpentier,
Cambresis, preuves, p. 6); do you have the full title on this source?
Can't seem to locate this in any library.

This citation might be somewhat misleading. The author seems to be
saying that the quote comes from the cartulary of Marchiennes, and
that it was taken from page 6 of the "preuves" section of Carpentier's
work. In that case, searches including the word "Marchiennes" would
probably turn up empty, and it would then probably be the book
published in 1664, a copy of which is currently being offered for
$5000+ at Abebooks from the following link:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... resis&x=49

While most of us do not have $5000 in pocket change sitting around to
buy a book on a whim, the bibliographical information at that link
might prove useful in locating a library copy.

Stewart Baldwin

gryphon801@aol.com

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg - Revisited

Legg inn av gryphon801@aol.com » 05 jan 2007 21:30:42

This book is in the Family History Library. If the original poster
would like to have a copy of the page, just e-mail your postal address
to gryphon801@aol.com and I'll be glad to send the page. The reference
to Ogive as mother of Count Baldwin is accurate.
Willem Nabuurs wrote:
A quick search in the Dutch library guide shows that this book is available
for local research in the university libraries of 5 dutch universities
(Amsterdam, Groningen, Leiden, Tilburg, Utrecht).

Willem Nabuurs

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] Namens Stewart Baldwin
Verzonden: vrijdag 5 januari 2007 18:35
Aan: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Onderwerp: Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg - Revisited

On 5 Jan 2007 08:17:10 -0800, "Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com
wrote:

Peter: ....(Cartul. of the Abbey of Marchiennes--Carpentier,
Cambresis, preuves, p. 6); do you have the full title on this source?
Can't seem to locate this in any library.

This citation might be somewhat misleading. The author seems to be
saying that the quote comes from the cartulary of Marchiennes, and
that it was taken from page 6 of the "preuves" section of Carpentier's
work. In that case, searches including the word "Marchiennes" would
probably turn up empty, and it would then probably be the book
published in 1664, a copy of which is currently being offered for
$5000+ at Abebooks from the following link:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... y=17&tn=ca
mbresis&x=49

While most of us do not have $5000 in pocket change sitting around to
buy a book on a whim, the bibliographical information at that link
might prove useful in locating a library copy.

Stewart Baldwin


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

gryphon801@aol.com

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg - Revisited

Legg inn av gryphon801@aol.com » 05 jan 2007 21:32:37

Oops - that is of course gryphon801@aol.com.
gryphon801@aol.com wrote:
This book is in the Family History Library. If the original poster
would like to have a copy of the page, just e-mail your postal address
to gryphon801@aol.com and I'll be glad to send the page. The reference
to Ogive as mother of Count Baldwin is accurate.
Willem Nabuurs wrote:
A quick search in the Dutch library guide shows that this book is available
for local research in the university libraries of 5 dutch universities
(Amsterdam, Groningen, Leiden, Tilburg, Utrecht).

Willem Nabuurs

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] Namens Stewart Baldwin
Verzonden: vrijdag 5 januari 2007 18:35
Aan: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Onderwerp: Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg - Revisited

On 5 Jan 2007 08:17:10 -0800, "Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com
wrote:

Peter: ....(Cartul. of the Abbey of Marchiennes--Carpentier,
Cambresis, preuves, p. 6); do you have the full title on this source?
Can't seem to locate this in any library.

This citation might be somewhat misleading. The author seems to be
saying that the quote comes from the cartulary of Marchiennes, and
that it was taken from page 6 of the "preuves" section of Carpentier's
work. In that case, searches including the word "Marchiennes" would
probably turn up empty, and it would then probably be the book
published in 1664, a copy of which is currently being offered for
$5000+ at Abebooks from the following link:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... y=17&tn=ca
mbresis&x=49

While most of us do not have $5000 in pocket change sitting around to
buy a book on a whim, the bibliographical information at that link
might prove useful in locating a library copy.

Stewart Baldwin


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

gryphon801@aol.com

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg - Revisited

Legg inn av gryphon801@aol.com » 05 jan 2007 21:53:23

Try again: gryphon801@aol.com will reach me any time.
gryphon801@aol.com wrote:
Oops - that is of course gryphon801@aol.com.
gryphon801@aol.com wrote:
This book is in the Family History Library. If the original poster
would like to have a copy of the page, just e-mail your postal address
to gryphon801@aol.com and I'll be glad to send the page. The reference
to Ogive as mother of Count Baldwin is accurate.
Willem Nabuurs wrote:
A quick search in the Dutch library guide shows that this book is available
for local research in the university libraries of 5 dutch universities
(Amsterdam, Groningen, Leiden, Tilburg, Utrecht).

Willem Nabuurs

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] Namens Stewart Baldwin
Verzonden: vrijdag 5 januari 2007 18:35
Aan: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Onderwerp: Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg - Revisited

On 5 Jan 2007 08:17:10 -0800, "Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com
wrote:

Peter: ....(Cartul. of the Abbey of Marchiennes--Carpentier,
Cambresis, preuves, p. 6); do you have the full title on this source?
Can't seem to locate this in any library.

This citation might be somewhat misleading. The author seems to be
saying that the quote comes from the cartulary of Marchiennes, and
that it was taken from page 6 of the "preuves" section of Carpentier's
work. In that case, searches including the word "Marchiennes" would
probably turn up empty, and it would then probably be the book
published in 1664, a copy of which is currently being offered for
$5000+ at Abebooks from the following link:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... y=17&tn=ca
mbresis&x=49

While most of us do not have $5000 in pocket change sitting around to
buy a book on a whim, the bibliographical information at that link
might prove useful in locating a library copy.

Stewart Baldwin


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Peter Stewart

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg - Revisited

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 06 jan 2007 00:10:43

"Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1168013830.439513.232260@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com...
From: Peter Stewart - view profile
Date: Tues, May 14 2002 11:36 pm
Email: "Peter Stewart" <peter.stew...@crsrehab.gov.au
Groups: soc.genealogy.medieval


I'm not sure which of the following primary sources you have already
consulted, but the first reference in conjunction with the later ones
may be useful - GE Cokayne in *The Seize Quartiers of the Kings and
Queens of England* First Series, in _The Genealogist_ New Series 9
(1893), in a note on the parentage of Baldwin V, count of Flanders,
quoted:

"Ego Balduinis Flandrorum Comes, Balduini Barbati et Ogivae
Lussemburgensis Comitissae filius, notum....(Cartul. of the Abbey of
Marchiennes--Carpentier, Cambresis, preuves, p. 6)"

Peter: ....(Cartul. of the Abbey of Marchiennes--Carpentier,
Cambresis, preuves, p. 6); do you have the full title on this source?
Can't seem to locate this in any library.

Please be more careful with the text included in your posts - I don't know
why "From: Peter Stewart" should appear at the top, as nothing written by me
was even quoted, and this can only be misleading to anyone trying to follow
a thread.

The cartulary of Marchiennes is an early 16th century production, famous for
its artwork, and the details that are conveniently but most unusually given
for the parents of Balduin V in the citation suggest that this was a
retrospective gloss, interpolated by the compiler & very probably not
contemporary with the charter itself, assuming this was basically genuine in
the first place.

Balduin V of Flanders had the reputation for an especially grand ancestry,
with a notoriously unverifiable Byzantine element claimed early on, as well
as bogus offspring ascribed to him in later sources, and there were
certainly both reliable & unreliable sources for information about Otgiva's
background that could have been available at Marchiennes by the 1500s.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg - Revisited

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 06 jan 2007 06:32:07

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:TVAnh.2019$A8.492@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1168013830.439513.232260@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com...
From: Peter Stewart - view profile
Date: Tues, May 14 2002 11:36 pm
Email: "Peter Stewart" <peter.stew...@crsrehab.gov.au
Groups: soc.genealogy.medieval


I'm not sure which of the following primary sources you have already
consulted, but the first reference in conjunction with the later ones
may be useful - GE Cokayne in *The Seize Quartiers of the Kings and
Queens of England* First Series, in _The Genealogist_ New Series 9
(1893), in a note on the parentage of Baldwin V, count of Flanders,
quoted:

"Ego Balduinis Flandrorum Comes, Balduini Barbati et Ogivae
Lussemburgensis Comitissae filius, notum....(Cartul. of the Abbey of
Marchiennes--Carpentier, Cambresis, preuves, p. 6)"

Peter: ....(Cartul. of the Abbey of Marchiennes--Carpentier,
Cambresis, preuves, p. 6); do you have the full title on this source?
Can't seem to locate this in any library.

Please be more careful with the text included in your posts - I don't know
why "From: Peter Stewart" should appear at the top, as nothing written by
me was even quoted, and this can only be misleading to anyone trying to
follow a thread.

The cartulary of Marchiennes is an early 16th century production, famous
for its artwork, and the details that are conveniently but most unusually
given for the parents of Balduin V in the citation suggest that this was a
retrospective gloss, interpolated by the compiler & very probably not
contemporary with the charter itself, assuming this was basically genuine
in the first place.

I am told that an edition of the charters of Marchiennes is currently being
prepared: this includes documents from a surviving 12th-century cartulary as
well as original documents from the 13th and 14th centuries.

However, I still very much doubt that the quotation above is from a text
contemporary with Balduin V.

First, his mother was said to be a sister of two counts of Luxemburg, but
this of course would not make her a countess of Luxemburg in her own right.
The style "Ogiva Lussemburgensis Comitissa", even allowing for the clearly
later orthography, might mean either "Ogive, countess of Luxemburg" (a
nonsense in this case since she was only countess of Flanders, by marriage)
or Countess Ogive of Luxemburg (an anachronistic form, uncustomarily
retaining her family origin as if this was a territorial designation that
stuck with her through life).

Secondly, it was not common for counts to name their parents in this way,
but if doing so the expected formula would surely include a title for the
father as well as for the mother, for instance "filius Balduini comitis
[marchionis] et Otgivae comitissae". Merely calling himself "son of Balduin
the Bearded and Countess Ogive of Luxemburg" is not at all plausible.

Also, the title "Flandrorum Comes" for Balduin himself appears bogus. The
usual forms in 11th-century charters were "comes" [or "marchio"]
"Flandrensium", "Flandrensis" or "Flandriae" - I can't recall an instance of
"Flandrorum" in original charters from this time. They did not call
themselves counts "of the Flemings" in the same way aas counts of Anjou, for
example, often designated themselves "of the Angevins" (Andegavorum).

Peter Stewart

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