John de Swynford's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
John de Swynford's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy
Dear Newsgroup ~
The ancient petition cited below is dated c.1324. It was written by a
certain John de Swynford [or Swyforth] to King Edward II of England.
The petition is written is French. Modern transcripts of this document
can be accessed at two different websites:
1. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp, and
2.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... ine.asp?...)
According to the modern transcripts, the petition allegedly refers to
John de Swynford's "kinsman," John Darcy. Also, the modern editor has
abstracted the petitioner's name as "John de Swyforth."
I examined the original petition today online at the following weblink
(click on download):
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... 0msn%2Ecom
In the original petition, the petitioner is called John de Swyforth.
However, there appears to be an apostrophe after the letter "y" which
may indicate that Swyforth is a contracted form of Swynforth. That the
correct name of the petitioner was John de Swynford (or Swynforth), the
reader may wish to consult a related document presented in Calendar of
Close Rolls, 1330-1331 (1898), pg. 151.
As for John Darcy, the petitioner's alleged kinsman, I checked the
document looking for any reference to John Darcy. The only reference I
can find in the document is to "John Darcy son Unkle" (that is, "John
Darcy his Uncle"). Thus, it would appear that John Darcy was actually
John de Swynford's uncle, not his kinsman as stated in the modern
online transcripts.
Elsewhere, I find that John de Swynford had letters of protection in
1324 for one year, he staying with "John Darcy, Justiciary of Ireland."
[Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1324-1327 (1904): 89]. The John
Darcy in question was Sir John Darcy (died 1355), 1st Lord Darcy of
Knaith, Justiciar of Ireland, for whom see Complete Peerage, 4 (1916):
54-58 (sub Darcy). Presumably John de Swynford's uncle, John Darcy,
is the same person as Sir John Darcy, Justiciar of Ireland.
Perhaps the ever helpful Judy Perry has some information on John de
Swynford which she can share with the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
Petition from John de Swynford to King Edward II of England.
Source: National Archives Catalogue
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)
SC 8/15/741
Scope and content
Petitioners: John de Swyforth.
Addressees: King and council
Places mentioned: Kelham, [Nottinghamshire]; Nicol (Lincoln),
[Lincolnshire]
Other people mentioned: Lord Mowbray; Hugh le Despenser, [Earl of
Lincoln], the father; Hugh le Despenser, the son; Robert de Kelm
(Kelham); [Thomas], Earl of Lancaster; Thomas de Sibthorp; Mayor and
bailiffs of Lincoln; John Darcy, kinsman of the petitioner.
Nature of request: Swyforth shows that he was in the company of the
Lord Mowbray in the time that the Despensers were exiled, and after the
death of the earl of Lancaster Robert de Kelm came and demanded that
Swyforth should give him his land in Kelham. Because he did not wish to
do so, and because Kelm coveted the land he made an allegation that
Swyforth had been an adherent of Mowbray in court and sued a writ and
had letters of Despenser to the mayor and bailiffs of Lincoln and
Swyforth was taken and imprisoned. Following this Kelm entered his
houses, chased his men away and took his goods. He also prevented
Swyforth from being delivered or mainprised by false allegations and
writs despite Swyforth being acquitted by an inquisition. Kelm
threatened him with death or perpetual imprisonment if he would not
give up his lands. Swyforth requests grace and restitution of these
duresses and of his land.
Endorsement: At the common law.
Covering dates [c. 1324]
Note: This petition presumably dates to the period 1323-7 as it seems
to be unreserved in its details about the Despenser exile, the death of
Lancaster, and also concerns the allegation that Swyforth was an
adherent of Mowbray. It is not clear though precisely what date this is
as the petitioner was in prison for a length of time, and a writ was
issued to the sheriff of Lincoln to release Swyforth on 26 September
1323, though still noting his links with Mowbray, at which time he
still had to answer the king (CCR 1323-7, p.23). As Kelm was in debt to
Swyforth by an acknowledgement of 6 February 1327 the matter had
perhaps been settled by that date (CCR 1327-30, p.90). A date of c.
1324 is suggested.
The ancient petition cited below is dated c.1324. It was written by a
certain John de Swynford [or Swyforth] to King Edward II of England.
The petition is written is French. Modern transcripts of this document
can be accessed at two different websites:
1. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp, and
2.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... ine.asp?...)
According to the modern transcripts, the petition allegedly refers to
John de Swynford's "kinsman," John Darcy. Also, the modern editor has
abstracted the petitioner's name as "John de Swyforth."
I examined the original petition today online at the following weblink
(click on download):
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... 0msn%2Ecom
In the original petition, the petitioner is called John de Swyforth.
However, there appears to be an apostrophe after the letter "y" which
may indicate that Swyforth is a contracted form of Swynforth. That the
correct name of the petitioner was John de Swynford (or Swynforth), the
reader may wish to consult a related document presented in Calendar of
Close Rolls, 1330-1331 (1898), pg. 151.
As for John Darcy, the petitioner's alleged kinsman, I checked the
document looking for any reference to John Darcy. The only reference I
can find in the document is to "John Darcy son Unkle" (that is, "John
Darcy his Uncle"). Thus, it would appear that John Darcy was actually
John de Swynford's uncle, not his kinsman as stated in the modern
online transcripts.
Elsewhere, I find that John de Swynford had letters of protection in
1324 for one year, he staying with "John Darcy, Justiciary of Ireland."
[Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1324-1327 (1904): 89]. The John
Darcy in question was Sir John Darcy (died 1355), 1st Lord Darcy of
Knaith, Justiciar of Ireland, for whom see Complete Peerage, 4 (1916):
54-58 (sub Darcy). Presumably John de Swynford's uncle, John Darcy,
is the same person as Sir John Darcy, Justiciar of Ireland.
Perhaps the ever helpful Judy Perry has some information on John de
Swynford which she can share with the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
Petition from John de Swynford to King Edward II of England.
Source: National Archives Catalogue
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)
SC 8/15/741
Scope and content
Petitioners: John de Swyforth.
Addressees: King and council
Places mentioned: Kelham, [Nottinghamshire]; Nicol (Lincoln),
[Lincolnshire]
Other people mentioned: Lord Mowbray; Hugh le Despenser, [Earl of
Lincoln], the father; Hugh le Despenser, the son; Robert de Kelm
(Kelham); [Thomas], Earl of Lancaster; Thomas de Sibthorp; Mayor and
bailiffs of Lincoln; John Darcy, kinsman of the petitioner.
Nature of request: Swyforth shows that he was in the company of the
Lord Mowbray in the time that the Despensers were exiled, and after the
death of the earl of Lancaster Robert de Kelm came and demanded that
Swyforth should give him his land in Kelham. Because he did not wish to
do so, and because Kelm coveted the land he made an allegation that
Swyforth had been an adherent of Mowbray in court and sued a writ and
had letters of Despenser to the mayor and bailiffs of Lincoln and
Swyforth was taken and imprisoned. Following this Kelm entered his
houses, chased his men away and took his goods. He also prevented
Swyforth from being delivered or mainprised by false allegations and
writs despite Swyforth being acquitted by an inquisition. Kelm
threatened him with death or perpetual imprisonment if he would not
give up his lands. Swyforth requests grace and restitution of these
duresses and of his land.
Endorsement: At the common law.
Covering dates [c. 1324]
Note: This petition presumably dates to the period 1323-7 as it seems
to be unreserved in its details about the Despenser exile, the death of
Lancaster, and also concerns the allegation that Swyforth was an
adherent of Mowbray. It is not clear though precisely what date this is
as the petitioner was in prison for a length of time, and a writ was
issued to the sheriff of Lincoln to release Swyforth on 26 September
1323, though still noting his links with Mowbray, at which time he
still had to answer the king (CCR 1323-7, p.23). As Kelm was in debt to
Swyforth by an acknowledgement of 6 February 1327 the matter had
perhaps been settled by that date (CCR 1327-30, p.90). A date of c.
1324 is suggested.
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Alina
Re: John de Swynford's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy
Unfortunately I have no knowledge on this document. However, I just
wanted to say, this is a very cool post!
Thanks!
wanted to say, this is a very cool post!
Thanks!
-
alden@mindspring.com
Re: John de Swynford's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy
Douglas Richardson wrote:
snip
A date of c. 1324 is suggested. I have a chronological question.
My understanding is that the Sir John Darcy of Knaith, who d. 5 mar
1355/6 was born about 1305. John Darcy was born shortly after his
parent's marriage so there are no elder sisters to help out here (as
far as I know).
How can someone writing in 1324 (and of age to submit a petition) be
his nephew? I agree son is "his" en francaise. But it still doesn't
make sense to me. Must be too much turkey.
Doug Smith
snip
A date of c. 1324 is suggested. I have a chronological question.
My understanding is that the Sir John Darcy of Knaith, who d. 5 mar
1355/6 was born about 1305. John Darcy was born shortly after his
parent's marriage so there are no elder sisters to help out here (as
far as I know).
How can someone writing in 1324 (and of age to submit a petition) be
his nephew? I agree son is "his" en francaise. But it still doesn't
make sense to me. Must be too much turkey.
Doug Smith
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: John de Swynford's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy
Dear Doug ~
Sir John Darcy, 1st Lord Darcy of Knaith, Justiciar of Ireland, was
born say 1280. He was still a minor in 1292, when he claimed his lands
at Oldcotes, Nottinghamshire by a guardian. He died in 1347. I erred
in stating he died in 1355.
As far as I can tell, there is ample time for him to have had a nephew,
John de Swynford, who was an adult in 1324. Sir John Darcy, 1st Lord
Darcy of Knaith, often occurs in records as John Darcy le cousin.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
alden@mindspring.com wrote:
< A date of c. 1324 is suggested. I have a chronological question.
<
< My understanding is that the Sir John Darcy of Knaith, who d. 5 mar
< 1355/6 was born about 1305. John Darcy was born shortly after his
< parent's marriage so there are no elder sisters to help out here (as
< far as I know).
<
< How can someone writing in 1324 (and of age to submit a petition) be
< his nephew? I agree son is "his" en francaise. But it still doesn't
< make sense to me. Must be too much turkey.
<
< Doug Smith
Sir John Darcy, 1st Lord Darcy of Knaith, Justiciar of Ireland, was
born say 1280. He was still a minor in 1292, when he claimed his lands
at Oldcotes, Nottinghamshire by a guardian. He died in 1347. I erred
in stating he died in 1355.
As far as I can tell, there is ample time for him to have had a nephew,
John de Swynford, who was an adult in 1324. Sir John Darcy, 1st Lord
Darcy of Knaith, often occurs in records as John Darcy le cousin.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
alden@mindspring.com wrote:
< A date of c. 1324 is suggested. I have a chronological question.
<
< My understanding is that the Sir John Darcy of Knaith, who d. 5 mar
< 1355/6 was born about 1305. John Darcy was born shortly after his
< parent's marriage so there are no elder sisters to help out here (as
< far as I know).
<
< How can someone writing in 1324 (and of age to submit a petition) be
< his nephew? I agree son is "his" en francaise. But it still doesn't
< make sense to me. Must be too much turkey.
<
< Doug Smith
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Douglas Richardson
Re: John de Swynford's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy
Dear Newsgroup ~
In my post earlier today, I inadvertedly stated that Sir John Darcy,
1st Lord Darcy of Knaith, died in 1355. The correct death date is
1347. Mea culpa.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
In my post earlier today, I inadvertedly stated that Sir John Darcy,
1st Lord Darcy of Knaith, died in 1355. The correct death date is
1347. Mea culpa.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
alden@mindspring.com
Re: John de Swynford's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy
On Dec 28, 1:59 am, "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Thanks Douglas
Now it makes sense.
Doug
Dear Newsgroup ~
In my post earlier today, I inadvertedly stated that Sir John Darcy,
1st Lord Darcy of Knaith, died in 1355. The correct death date is
1347. Mea culpa.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Thanks Douglas
Now it makes sense.
Doug
-
Gjest
Re: John de Swynford's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy
Dear Douglas,
Wish I could!
I know I have the odd John Swynford here and there, but that
information in computerized form is on my other, truly ailing laptop,
and I've been busy grading student papers for grades submission this
morning and thus haven't gotten around yet to transferring the
information over. I'll try to get to it shortly.
However, it is interesting to note that there is a John Swynford of
Spratton, Northants., who died ca. 1371/2; the Church of St. Andrew,
Spratton, received some money (presumably?) from the government to fix
up his tomb (it's reportedly the earliest extant to exhibit the
Lancastrian collar of SS's), and I contacted them for information on
the tomb's inhabitant. They didn't know, and VCH for Northants.
doesn't have very much information on him, either (I think it has him
leaving a sole daughter as heir, and his becoming Lord of Spratton in
right of his wife, a Joan or Anne Arderne). The painted heraldry on
the tomb's shields is all but obliterated; VCH doesn't describe them
other to say that they existed, and Roger Joy of the Katherine Swynford
Society has photographed what remains and even he cannot state with
much confidence on what the arms may have contained (anyone interested
can see them; they are in the Photos section of either
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KatherineSwynford or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Swynford_Research).
Also, as you may know, Sir Thomas Swynford, son of Hugh & Katherine
Swynford, married as his second wife Margareta Grey, formerly wife of
Sir Philip Darcy (d. 1411).
I don't know if this helps, but it's what I can offer off the top of my
tired head
Best regards,
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Wish I could!
I know I have the odd John Swynford here and there, but that
information in computerized form is on my other, truly ailing laptop,
and I've been busy grading student papers for grades submission this
morning and thus haven't gotten around yet to transferring the
information over. I'll try to get to it shortly.
However, it is interesting to note that there is a John Swynford of
Spratton, Northants., who died ca. 1371/2; the Church of St. Andrew,
Spratton, received some money (presumably?) from the government to fix
up his tomb (it's reportedly the earliest extant to exhibit the
Lancastrian collar of SS's), and I contacted them for information on
the tomb's inhabitant. They didn't know, and VCH for Northants.
doesn't have very much information on him, either (I think it has him
leaving a sole daughter as heir, and his becoming Lord of Spratton in
right of his wife, a Joan or Anne Arderne). The painted heraldry on
the tomb's shields is all but obliterated; VCH doesn't describe them
other to say that they existed, and Roger Joy of the Katherine Swynford
Society has photographed what remains and even he cannot state with
much confidence on what the arms may have contained (anyone interested
can see them; they are in the Photos section of either
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KatherineSwynford or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Swynford_Research).
Also, as you may know, Sir Thomas Swynford, son of Hugh & Katherine
Swynford, married as his second wife Margareta Grey, formerly wife of
Sir Philip Darcy (d. 1411).
I don't know if this helps, but it's what I can offer off the top of my
tired head
Best regards,
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
The ancient petition cited below is dated c.1324. It was written by a
certain John de Swynford [or Swyforth] to King Edward II of England.
The petition is written is French. Modern transcripts of this document
can be accessed at two different websites:
1. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp, and
2.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... ine.asp?...)
According to the modern transcripts, the petition allegedly refers to
John de Swynford's "kinsman," John Darcy. Also, the modern editor has
abstracted the petitioner's name as "John de Swyforth."
snip
Perhaps the ever helpful Judy Perry has some information on John de
Swynford which she can share with the newsgroup.
-
Gjest
Re: John de Swynford's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy
Douglas,
Very interesting Post the other day I came across a some Swynford
information. It stated that John son of John son of John Swynford heirs
were Margaret dau of Sir William Swynford wife of William Bilesby. As
soon as I find it again I will post it.
Sincerely Yours
Michael Welch.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Very interesting Post the other day I came across a some Swynford
information. It stated that John son of John son of John Swynford heirs
were Margaret dau of Sir William Swynford wife of William Bilesby. As
soon as I find it again I will post it.
Sincerely Yours
Michael Welch.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
In my post earlier today, I inadvertedly stated that Sir John Darcy,
1st Lord Darcy of Knaith, died in 1355. The correct death date is
1347. Mea culpa.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Gjest
Re: John de Swynford's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy
Michael,
I should be much interested in this as well, as I have looked in vain
for some definitive information on the Swynforde-Belesby (sp?) linkage,
especially as it appears (I think!) on the Luttrell brass.
There appears to have been some Swynford intermarriage with both
Belesby as well as Thimbleby, but the particulars have eluded me.
In anticipation of your information!
Kindest thanks and regards,
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com
mwelch8442@yahoo.com wrote:
I should be much interested in this as well, as I have looked in vain
for some definitive information on the Swynforde-Belesby (sp?) linkage,
especially as it appears (I think!) on the Luttrell brass.
There appears to have been some Swynford intermarriage with both
Belesby as well as Thimbleby, but the particulars have eluded me.
In anticipation of your information!
Kindest thanks and regards,
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com
mwelch8442@yahoo.com wrote:
Douglas,
Very interesting Post the other day I came across a some Swynford
information. It stated that John son of John son of John Swynford heirs
were Margaret dau of Sir William Swynford wife of William Bilesby. As
soon as I find it again I will post it.
Sincerely Yours
Michael Welch.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
In my post earlier today, I inadvertedly stated that Sir John Darcy,
1st Lord Darcy of Knaith, died in 1355. The correct death date is
1347. Mea culpa.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah