More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Countess

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Douglas Richardson

More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Countess

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 18 des 2006 18:21:34

Dear Newsgroup ~

The abstracts of the online Ancient Petitions on the National Archives
website are proving to be a veritable goldmine of helpful new
information for medieval families. I've copied below an abstract of a
petition to the king from a certain "H. de Thoart" dated c. 1220-1222
on behalf of his kinswoman, Alice, Countess of Eu. Alice, Countess of
Eu, is perhaps better known to newsgroup members as the mother of Maud
of Eu, wife of Humphrey de Bohun (died 1275), Earl of Hereford,
hereditary Constable of England.

"H. de Thoart" is not identified in the petition itself, but I feel
reasonably certain that he is the same person as the contemporary
Hugues de Thouars, seigneur of Montaigu, who died c. 1229/30. Hugues
de Thouars was near related to the then King Henry III of England, as
Hugues' grandmother, Agnes of Poitou, was a great-aunt to King Henry's
grandmother, Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine. Also, Hugues de Thouars was
brother of Guy de Thouars, the third husband of Constance, Duchess of
Brittany. Even though with such prominent ancestry, I'm unable to
explain how Hugues de Thouars is near related to Alice, Countess of Eu.

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + +
COPY OF ANCIENT PETITION

Source: http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp

SC 8/270/13494

Scope and content

Petitioners: H. de Thoart.

Addressees: King and council.

Places mentioned: Tickhill, [West Riding of Yorkshire].

Other people mentioned: Henry III, King of England; [Alice], Countess
of Eu; Ralph, son of the Countess of Eu; [Robert] de Veteri Ponte
(Vespont).

Nature of request: Thoart makes a request on behalf of his kinswoman,
the Countess of Eu, in her business with Robert de Veteri Ponte
concerning the castle of Tickhill, asking the King to order his
bailiffs that she is not to be harassed or injured by de Veteri Ponte,
and that she and Ralph her son are not to be disinherited.

Endorsement: [None].

Covering dates [1220-1222]

Note: Despite the bewildering range of dates with evidence given in the
guard note on the dorse of this petition ranging from c. 1219 to before
1244, it seems very likely that this petition actually dates to the
period 1220-1222 as it is noted in the Complete Peerage that Alice,
Countess of Eu was impleaded for the castle and vill of Tickhill by
Robert de Vespont and Idoin his wife in 1220, and that they released
their claim by fine in the octave of the Purification in 1222 (Complete
Peerage, vol. V, pp.163-4).

Leo van de Pas

Re: More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Coun

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 18 des 2006 21:28:20

Hugues and Alice are at least fifth cousins.
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:21 AM
Subject: More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Countess of Eu


Dear Newsgroup ~

The abstracts of the online Ancient Petitions on the National Archives
website are proving to be a veritable goldmine of helpful new
information for medieval families. I've copied below an abstract of a
petition to the king from a certain "H. de Thoart" dated c. 1220-1222
on behalf of his kinswoman, Alice, Countess of Eu. Alice, Countess of
Eu, is perhaps better known to newsgroup members as the mother of Maud
of Eu, wife of Humphrey de Bohun (died 1275), Earl of Hereford,
hereditary Constable of England.

"H. de Thoart" is not identified in the petition itself, but I feel
reasonably certain that he is the same person as the contemporary
Hugues de Thouars, seigneur of Montaigu, who died c. 1229/30. Hugues
de Thouars was near related to the then King Henry III of England, as
Hugues' grandmother, Agnes of Poitou, was a great-aunt to King Henry's
grandmother, Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine. Also, Hugues de Thouars was
brother of Guy de Thouars, the third husband of Constance, Duchess of
Brittany. Even though with such prominent ancestry, I'm unable to
explain how Hugues de Thouars is near related to Alice, Countess of Eu.

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + +
COPY OF ANCIENT PETITION

Source: http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp

SC 8/270/13494

Scope and content

Petitioners: H. de Thoart.

Addressees: King and council.

Places mentioned: Tickhill, [West Riding of Yorkshire].

Other people mentioned: Henry III, King of England; [Alice], Countess
of Eu; Ralph, son of the Countess of Eu; [Robert] de Veteri Ponte
(Vespont).

Nature of request: Thoart makes a request on behalf of his kinswoman,
the Countess of Eu, in her business with Robert de Veteri Ponte
concerning the castle of Tickhill, asking the King to order his
bailiffs that she is not to be harassed or injured by de Veteri Ponte,
and that she and Ralph her son are not to be disinherited.

Endorsement: [None].

Covering dates [1220-1222]

Note: Despite the bewildering range of dates with evidence given in the
guard note on the dorse of this petition ranging from c. 1219 to before
1244, it seems very likely that this petition actually dates to the
period 1220-1222 as it is noted in the Complete Peerage that Alice,
Countess of Eu was impleaded for the castle and vill of Tickhill by
Robert de Vespont and Idoin his wife in 1220, and that they released
their claim by fine in the octave of the Purification in 1222 (Complete
Peerage, vol. V, pp.163-4).


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Gjest

Re: More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Coun

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2006 06:23:51

I have them as 4th cousins in at least two lines of descent:

<First> 4th cousins once removed
-----------------------------------------------
Hugues I Vicomte de Thouars b c1155 d 1229
Geoffrey V Vicomte de Thouars b 1125 d c1173
Agnès de Poitou b c1103 d 1136
Guillaume IX Duke of Aquitaine b abt 22 Oct 1071 d 10 Feb 1127
Audéarde de Bourgogne b c1050 d after 1104
Ermengarde d' Anjou b c1010 d 21 Mar 1076

Alice d' Eu b c1190 d abt 15 May 1246
Maud de Warenne b c1169 d before 1228
Hamelin Vicomte de Touraine, 5th Earl of Surrey b c1140 d 7 May 1202
Geoffrey V Comte d' Anjou et Maine b 24 Nov 1113 d 7 Sep 1151
Foulques V Comte d' Anjou b before 1092 d 13 Nov 1143
Foulques IV Comte d' Anjou b 1043 d 14 Apr 1109
Ermengarde d' Anjou b c1010 d 21 Mar 1076


<Second> 4th cousins twice removed
---------------------------------------------------
Hugues I Vicomte de Thouars b c1155 d 1229
Geoffrey V Vicomte de Thouars b 1125 d c1173
Agnès de Poitou b c1103 d 1136
Guillaume IX Duke of Aquitaine b abt 22 Oct 1071 d 10 Feb 1127
Audéarde de Bourgogne b c1050 d after 1104
Robert I Duke de Bourgogne b c1011 d 21 Mar 1076

Alice d' Eu b c1190 d abt 15 May 1246
Maud de Warenne b c1169 d before 1228
Isabel de Warenne Countess of Surrey b c1140 d abt 12 Jul 1203
Ela Talvas de Ponthieu d 4 Oct 1174
Hélie de Bourgogne b 1080 d 28 Feb 1142
Eudes I Borel Duke de Bourgogne b 1060 d 23 Mar 1102
Henri de Bourgogne b 1035 d abt 27 Jan 1074
Robert I Duke de Bourgogne b c1011 d 21 Mar 1076


Bruce Hallowell

On Dec 18, 1:28 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Hugues and Alice are at least fifth cousins.
Leo van de Pas



----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:21 AM
Subject: More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Countess of Eu

Dear Newsgroup ~

The abstracts of the online Ancient Petitions on the National Archives
website are proving to be a veritable goldmine of helpful new
information for medieval families. I've copied below an abstract of a
petition to the king from a certain "H. de Thoart" dated c. 1220-1222
on behalf of his kinswoman, Alice, Countess of Eu. Alice, Countess of
Eu, is perhaps better known to newsgroup members as the mother of Maud
of Eu, wife of Humphrey de Bohun (died 1275), Earl of Hereford,
hereditary Constable of England.

"H. de Thoart" is not identified in the petition itself, but I feel
reasonably certain that he is the same person as the contemporary
Hugues de Thouars, seigneur of Montaigu, who died c. 1229/30. Hugues
de Thouars was near related to the then King Henry III of England, as
Hugues' grandmother, Agnes of Poitou, was a great-aunt to King Henry's
grandmother, Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine. Also, Hugues de Thouars was
brother of Guy de Thouars, the third husband of Constance, Duchess of
Brittany. Even though with such prominent ancestry, I'm unable to
explain how Hugues de Thouars is near related to Alice, Countess of Eu.

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + +
COPY OF ANCIENT PETITION

Source:http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp

SC 8/270/13494

Scope and content

Petitioners: H. de Thoart.

Addressees: King and council.

Places mentioned: Tickhill, [West Riding of Yorkshire].

Other people mentioned: Henry III, King of England; [Alice], Countess
of Eu; Ralph, son of the Countess of Eu; [Robert] de Veteri Ponte
(Vespont).

Nature of request: Thoart makes a request on behalf of his kinswoman,
the Countess of Eu, in her business with Robert de Veteri Ponte
concerning the castle of Tickhill, asking the King to order his
bailiffs that she is not to be harassed or injured by de Veteri Ponte,
and that she and Ralph her son are not to be disinherited.

Endorsement: [None].

Covering dates [1220-1222]

Note: Despite the bewildering range of dates with evidence given in the
guard note on the dorse of this petition ranging from c. 1219 to before
1244, it seems very likely that this petition actually dates to the
period 1220-1222 as it is noted in the Complete Peerage that Alice,
Countess of Eu was impleaded for the castle and vill of Tickhill by
Robert de Vespont and Idoin his wife in 1220, and that they released
their claim by fine in the octave of the Purification in 1222 (Complete
Peerage, vol. V, pp.163-4).

-------------------------------
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Douglas Richardson

Re: More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Coun

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 19 des 2006 07:21:45

Dear Bruce, Leo, etc.

Thank you both for your comments.

Yes, there appears to be at least two ways that Hugues de Thouars and
Alice, Countess of Eu, were related as 4th cousins, once being 4th
cousins once remove, the other being 4th cousins twice removed.

However, inasmuch as the petition in question is dated c. 1220-1222, I
would guess that the two parties were more closely related than 4th
cousins, conceivably through another avenue.

Does anyone have any particulars regarding Hugues de Thouars' mother?
One reliable source I checked lists her as unknown. Obviously is she
was closely related to Countess Alice, it would explain the near
kinship between Hugues de Thouars and Countess Alice. If this was the
case, does anyone have any thoughts about how Hugues' mother might fit
into Countess Alice's family tree?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Gjest

Re: More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Coun

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2006 15:13:43

Douglas,

There is a web-page on the family of Thouars _Les Vicomtes de
Thouars_ at http://www.francebalade.com/poitou/ctthouars.htm which
has significant detail, but as you might expect, not a lot of sources
referenced. They give Hugues de Thouars father (wife of Geoffrey de
Thouars) as Amie de Lusignan, daughter of Hugues VIII de Lusignan and
Bourgogne de Rancon. Leo's site only lists the sons of this marriage,
and I had not been able to verify this yet. If confirmed, this might
open up many new possibilities for relationships.

Bruce Hallowell

On Dec 18, 11:21 pm, "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com>
wrote:
Dear Bruce, Leo, etc.

Thank you both for your comments.

Yes, there appears to be at least two ways that Hugues de Thouars and
Alice, Countess of Eu, were related as 4th cousins, once being 4th
cousins once remove, the other being 4th cousins twice removed.

However, inasmuch as the petition in question is dated c. 1220-1222, I
would guess that the two parties were more closely related than 4th
cousins, conceivably through another avenue.

Does anyone have any particulars regarding Hugues de Thouars' mother?
One reliable source I checked lists her as unknown. Obviously is she
was closely related to Countess Alice, it would explain the near
kinship between Hugues de Thouars and Countess Alice. If this was the
case, does anyone have any thoughts about how Hugues' mother might fit
into Countess Alice's family tree?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

taf

Re: More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Coun

Legg inn av taf » 19 des 2006 20:29:43

hallowellb@aol.com wrote:
Douglas,

There is a web-page on the family of Thouars _Les Vicomtes de
Thouars_ at http://www.francebalade.com/poitou/ctthouars.htm which
has significant detail, but as you might expect, not a lot of sources
referenced. They give Hugues de Thouars father (wife of Geoffrey de
Thouars) as Amie de Lusignan, daughter of Hugues VIII de Lusignan and
Bourgogne de Rancon. Leo's site only lists the sons of this marriage,
and I had not been able to verify this yet. If confirmed, this might
open up many new possibilities for relationships.

Given that Alice d'Eu, the other side of this relationship, was wife of
Ralph de Lusignan, grandson of Hugues and Bourgogne, and hence first
cousin of Hugues (assuming that this Lusignan/Thouars marriage is
authentic), it certainly suggests one possibility.

This would make the second of these instances (remember Blanche and
Hank?) where a close relationship could only be found through marriage,
not through blood. How many does it take?

taf

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