Italian Savoy muddle in ES

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Leo van de Pas

Italian Savoy muddle in ES

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 14 des 2006 02:04:14

ES Volume II Tafel 191

Here is shown Philippe in right of his first wife Prince of Achaia and Morea
he married (1) 2February 1301 Isabelle de Villehardouin, Princess of Achaia and Morea, she was born about 1263 and died 23 January 1312
he married (2) after 7 May 1312 Catherine de La Tour du Pin

by his first wife are given the following children
1.a daughter who marries in 1306 -------------aged five!!
2.Maria born in 1301------------------------------does this mean Maria and child 1 were twins?
3.Margareta born in 1303
4.Isabella
5.Alice-----married in 1325
6.Jacques/Jacob born 6/16 January 1315---------------born three years after his mother died
7.Amadeus Bishop of Lausanne

by the second wife there are several children.

If child 5. Alice was born about 1307 she was about 18 when she married.

To me it looks as though child 6 and 7 are both by the second wife. Can anyone confirm this?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Akrogiali

Re: Italian Savoy muddle in ES

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 14 des 2006 05:35:50

He was married twice, but he also had children from his mistress Serena
Della Perosa.

He had Maria (Dec 1301), Marguerite (29 Jan 1303) and Alice (After 1305)
from the first Wife, Isabella
Isabella (the mother was born 1267 and died 23 Jan 1311

Nine from the second (Caterina de La Tour-Du-Pin; married 1312); Beatrice,
Eleonora, Giacomo, Giovanna, Amedeo, Thomas, Isabella, Agness and Aimon.

Five Illegitimate with his mistress (Serena Della Peosa). Rinaldo, Antonio,
Beatrice, Anselmo and Enrichetta.

His first daughter Maria (b.1301) never married.



"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.433.1166058263.6313.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
ES Volume II Tafel 191

Here is shown Philippe in right of his first wife Prince of Achaia and Morea
he married (1) 2February 1301 Isabelle de Villehardouin, Princess of Achaia
and Morea, she was born about 1263 and died 23 January 1312
he married (2) after 7 May 1312 Catherine de La Tour du Pin

by his first wife are given the following children
1.a daughter who marries in 1306 -------------aged five!!
2.Maria born in 1301------------------------------does this mean Maria and
child 1 were twins?
3.Margareta born in 1303
4.Isabella
5.Alice-----married in 1325
6.Jacques/Jacob born 6/16 January 1315---------------born three years after
his mother died
7.Amadeus Bishop of Lausanne

by the second wife there are several children.

If child 5. Alice was born about 1307 she was about 18 when she married.

To me it looks as though child 6 and 7 are both by the second wife. Can
anyone confirm this?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Leo van de Pas

Re: Italian Savoy muddle in ES

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 14 des 2006 05:57:42

But where does Jacques/Jakob fit in according to you? ES also gives the
illegitimate children, but Jacques was legitimate and heir to his father.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Akrogiali" <akrogiali@westnet.com.au>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: Italian Savoy muddle in ES


He was married twice, but he also had children from his mistress Serena
Della Perosa.

He had Maria (Dec 1301), Marguerite (29 Jan 1303) and Alice (After 1305)
from the first Wife, Isabella
Isabella (the mother was born 1267 and died 23 Jan 1311

Nine from the second (Caterina de La Tour-Du-Pin; married 1312); Beatrice,
Eleonora, Giacomo, Giovanna, Amedeo, Thomas, Isabella, Agness and Aimon.

Five Illegitimate with his mistress (Serena Della Peosa). Rinaldo,
Antonio, Beatrice, Anselmo and Enrichetta.

His first daughter Maria (b.1301) never married.



"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.433.1166058263.6313.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
ES Volume II Tafel 191

Here is shown Philippe in right of his first wife Prince of Achaia and
Morea
he married (1) 2February 1301 Isabelle de Villehardouin, Princess of
Achaia and Morea, she was born about 1263 and died 23 January 1312
he married (2) after 7 May 1312 Catherine de La Tour du Pin

by his first wife are given the following children
1.a daughter who marries in 1306 -------------aged five!!
2.Maria born in 1301------------------------------does this mean Maria and
child 1 were twins?
3.Margareta born in 1303
4.Isabella
5.Alice-----married in 1325
6.Jacques/Jacob born 6/16 January 1315---------------born three years
after his mother died
7.Amadeus Bishop of Lausanne

by the second wife there are several children.

If child 5. Alice was born about 1307 she was about 18 when she married.

To me it looks as though child 6 and 7 are both by the second wife. Can
anyone confirm this?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia




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Gjest

Re: Italian Savoy muddle in ES

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 des 2006 10:45:03

Charles Cawley's Medlands give him 3 daughters by 1st marriage:
Maria, Marguerite and Alice
10 children by 2nd marriage:
Jacques, Eleonore, Jeanne, Amedée, Béatrice, Agnes, Isabelle, Thomas,
Edouard and Aimon
4 illegitimate:
Béatrice, Francesca, Antonio and Antelmo.

Jacques is Giacomo
"JACQUES de Savoie ([6/16] Jan 1315-Pinerolo 14 May 1367). The
testament of "Filippo di Savoia Primogenito del fu Tomaso de Savoia,
Signore nelle parti del Piemonte" dated 9 Jun 1330 names as his main
heir "Giacomo di Lui figlio P.o Genito"[401]. He succeeded his father
in 1334 as JACQUES titular Prince of Achaia, Signore [Sovereign Lord]
del Piemonte.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAVOY.htm#_Toc121886784

Best regards,
Francisco





Leo van de Pas escreveu:
But where does Jacques/Jakob fit in according to you? ES also gives the
illegitimate children, but Jacques was legitimate and heir to his father.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Akrogiali" <akrogiali@westnet.com.au
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: Italian Savoy muddle in ES


He was married twice, but he also had children from his mistress Serena
Della Perosa.

He had Maria (Dec 1301), Marguerite (29 Jan 1303) and Alice (After 1305)
from the first Wife, Isabella
Isabella (the mother was born 1267 and died 23 Jan 1311

Nine from the second (Caterina de La Tour-Du-Pin; married 1312); Beatrice,
Eleonora, Giacomo, Giovanna, Amedeo, Thomas, Isabella, Agness and Aimon.

Five Illegitimate with his mistress (Serena Della Peosa). Rinaldo,
Antonio, Beatrice, Anselmo and Enrichetta.

His first daughter Maria (b.1301) never married.



"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.433.1166058263.6313.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
ES Volume II Tafel 191

Here is shown Philippe in right of his first wife Prince of Achaia and
Morea
he married (1) 2February 1301 Isabelle de Villehardouin, Princess of
Achaia and Morea, she was born about 1263 and died 23 January 1312
he married (2) after 7 May 1312 Catherine de La Tour du Pin

by his first wife are given the following children
1.a daughter who marries in 1306 -------------aged five!!
2.Maria born in 1301------------------------------does this mean Maria and
child 1 were twins?
3.Margareta born in 1303
4.Isabella
5.Alice-----married in 1325
6.Jacques/Jacob born 6/16 January 1315---------------born three years
after his mother died
7.Amadeus Bishop of Lausanne

by the second wife there are several children.

If child 5. Alice was born about 1307 she was about 18 when she married.

To me it looks as though child 6 and 7 are both by the second wife. Can
anyone confirm this?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia




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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Peter Stewart

Re: Italian Savoy muddle in ES

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 15 des 2006 07:28:02

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.433.1166058263.6313.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
ES Volume II Tafel 191

Here is shown Philippe in right of his first wife Prince of Achaia
and Morea
he married (1) 2 February 1301 Isabelle de Villehardouin,
Princess of Achaia and Morea, she was born about 1263 and died
23 January 1312
he married (2) after 7 May 1312 Catherine de La Tour du Pin

by his first wife are given the following children
1.a daughter who marries in 1306 -------------aged five!!

The bridegroom was aged 10.

2.Maria born in 1301------------------------------does this mean Maria
and child 1 were twins?

I don't know the basis for placing the unnamed daughter's birth in 1301, or
whether she may have been the same as Maria who was born in November or
December of that year, following her parents' marriage at the beginning of
February.

3.Margareta born in 1303
4.Isabella
5.Alice-----married in 1325

Not necessarily _in_ 1325, we only know that she was married by14 December
of that year.

6.Jacques/Jacob born 6/16 January 1315---------------born three years
after his mother died

No, this is apparently a misprint for 6/16 January 1305. He was certainly
son of Isabelled de Viullehardouin, becoming prince of Achaia and passing on
this title to three of his sons in turn.

7.Amadeus Bishop of Lausanne

He was a younger (most probably second) son of the second marriage.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Italian Savoy muddle in ES

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 des 2006 00:46:02

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:dmrgh.8487$HU.1139@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.433.1166058263.6313.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
ES Volume II Tafel 191

Here is shown Philippe in right of his first wife Prince of Achaia
and Morea
he married (1) 2 February 1301 Isabelle de Villehardouin,
Princess of Achaia and Morea, she was born about 1263 and died
23 January 1312
he married (2) after 7 May 1312 Catherine de La Tour du Pin

by his first wife are given the following children
1.a daughter who marries in 1306 -------------aged five!!

The bridegroom was aged 10.

2.Maria born in 1301------------------------------does this mean Maria
and child 1 were twins?

I don't know the basis for placing the unnamed daughter's birth in 1301,
or whether she may have been the same as Maria who was born in November or
December of that year, following her parents' marriage at the beginning of
February.

3.Margareta born in 1303
4.Isabella
5.Alice-----married in 1325

Not necessarily _in_ 1325, we only know that she was married by14 December
of that year.

6.Jacques/Jacob born 6/16 January 1315---------------born three years
after his mother died

No, this is apparently a misprint for 6/16 January 1305. He was certainly
son of Isabelled de Viullehardouin, becoming prince of Achaia and passing
on this title to three of his sons in turn.

My apologies to Leo and others, I was wrong about this and 1315 is the
correct year. Although Giacomo of Savoy's title as prince of Achaia was
acknowledged to come from his mother, she was his father's second wife
Catherine de la Tour du Pin of Vienne, not the first wife Isabelle (Zampea)
of Villehardouin.

In a complicated fix, the title of princess of Achaia was trasnferred by
Philibert of Savoy to his second wife - this failed to settle the matter, of
course, and the title was assumed also by Isabelle's daughter from a
previous marriage, Mathilde d'Avesnes of Hainaut.

7.Amadeus Bishop of Lausanne

He was a younger (most probably second) son of the second marriage.

So Amadeus was probably the third, not second, son of the second marriage.

Peter Stewart

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