Use of Double S Symbol

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Rex Hotchkiss

Use of Double S Symbol

Legg inn av Rex Hotchkiss » 09 des 2006 22:29:29

As many of you know, older English writing makes use of a special
symbol for a double "s". If I recall, it often looks something like a
backward "P", although I haven't gone back to look. I have an idea,
which I was wondering if could be true. I've researched the
Hotchkiss family quite a bit and dealt with reading older English
writing. I've also looked at the possible origins of the name more
than a little. My question is, could the symbol used in old English
(well after 1066) for a double "s" have originated from a need to
pronounce the consonant on the end of a name using French when it is
used for "son of" or as a possessive? Since Hotchkiss is often
thought of as being derived from Rogers this would help a lot in
understanding the name.

Rex Hotchkiss

Re: Use of Double S Symbol

Legg inn av Rex Hotchkiss » 11 des 2006 06:36:16

I'm really hoping somebody on this forum knows enough about this symbol
to write a little bit about when it was used, and why, and perhaps
speak a little bit about it's use at the end of words, and whether it
was used by the Normans in their early reign in England.

TNewcomb

Re: Use of Double S Symbol

Legg inn av TNewcomb » 13 des 2006 00:15:26

Rex Hotchkiss wrote:
I'm really hoping somebody on this forum knows enough about this symbol
to write a little bit about when it was used, and why, and perhaps
speak a little bit about it's use at the end of words, and whether it
was used by the Normans in their early reign in England.

It's my understanding that the double s is of German origin. The
symbol as it is used in German today looks more like a capital B with a
smaller loop on the top (ß). I have an old Newcomb diary in which
the double s looks more like a capital P and is used both at the end as
well as in the middle of words.

Tim Newcomb

ScottyFLL

Re: Use of Double S Symbol

Legg inn av ScottyFLL » 13 des 2006 01:19:58

TNewcomb wrote:
Rex Hotchkiss wrote:
I'm really hoping somebody on this forum knows enough about this symbol
to write a little bit about when it was used, and why, and perhaps
speak a little bit about it's use at the end of words, and whether it
was used by the Normans in their early reign in England.

It's my understanding that the double s is of German origin. The
symbol as it is used in German today looks more like a capital B with a
smaller loop on the top (ß). I have an old Newcomb diary in which
the double s looks more like a capital P and is used both at the end as
well as in the middle of words.

ß and its uses in German at Wikpedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F

In English: One of the most dramatic changes in letters has the Letter
"s". Over 100 years ago the "s" was often written like a
backward "f". It was often used in place of a "double s"
http://www.pineconeandtassle.com/monthlyarticles.htm

Hope this helps.

Rex Hotchkiss

Re: Use of Double S Symbol

Legg inn av Rex Hotchkiss » 13 des 2006 11:31:42

Thank you Tim and Scotty. The reference was similar to some I have
seen, so it is good to have one here online with the question. I think
the symbol also sometimes looked like a large backward "f" without the
crossbar. The reference to a German origin is interesting, and I'd
like to hear more about it. One thing I'm really interested in is when
was the symbol first used, and when did it come to England? Was it
there in very old writing (like old Latin) or did it appear from the
Germans, French, or Vikings? Was it common in the rest of Europe? Are
there other references that discuss it's use, particularly on the end
of words and/or in Medeval England?

Clive West

Re: Use of Double S Symbol

Legg inn av Clive West » 14 des 2006 12:12:16

It is not really true to say that in old handwriting there was a separate
symbol for double s. In the style of handwriting generally used up to the
end of the 17th century (the secretary hand) a single s at the beginning or
in the middle of a word nearly always took the long form. ( like an f
without the crossing ). A double s was written with two of these long forms
close together, the second one higher than the first and looking like an
elongated p. It was not a separate symbol but a contraction used for speed.

The long s was used I believe throughout Europe but I don't know its origin.
In any case, in the secretary hand nearly all the letters had a different
form than today. The German symbol which looks rather like a b is used for
double s only after long vowels, dipthongs and at the end of a word. It has
nothing to do with the double s in the secretary hand.

I hope this helps.

Clive West


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rex Hotchkiss" <rexjhotchkiss@comcast.net>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: Use of Double S Symbol


Thank you Tim and Scotty. The reference was similar to some I have
seen, so it is good to have one here online with the question. I think
the symbol also sometimes looked like a large backward "f" without the
crossbar. The reference to a German origin is interesting, and I'd
like to hear more about it. One thing I'm really interested in is when
was the symbol first used, and when did it come to England? Was it
there in very old writing (like old Latin) or did it appear from the
Germans, French, or Vikings? Was it common in the rest of Europe? Are
there other references that discuss it's use, particularly on the end
of words and/or in Medeval England?



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