Adalbero I of Metz's "fratres ex matre"
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Stewart Baldwin
Adalbero I of Metz's "fratres ex matre"
The main point of this posting is the following passage from the life
of abbot John of Gorze, which I have mentioned briefly before. The
passage has a reference to several unnamed brothers through the mother
("fratres ex matre") of Adalbero I, bishop of Metz (son of Wigeric and
Cunégonde).
"Causa vero erat quod in his difficilis videbatur, quod fratres ei
plures ex matre erant, et eis usque ad id temporis parum consulere
potuerat, pluribus res episcopi retinentibus, quos privare nec
consilium erat - tanto robore ex superioribus episcoporum rebus
fractis nitebantur - et ideo hac vel qualibet occasione ipsis germanis
quo quid largiretur expectabat." (Translation: Indeed, the reason
that it seemed difficult was that there were several "fratres" of his
[i.e., of bishop Adalbero] "ex matre", and he had been able to look
after them very little up to this time, being detained by many
episcopal affairs, and there was no plan to deprive them - so much did
the weak depend for strength on the greater wealth of the bishops -
and thus in this way or anyhow by opportunity he hoped for that which
he might bestow on the said "germani".) [from "Vita Iohannis
Gorziensis", chapter 110, MGH SS 4: 368]. (This is not easy material
to translate, so comments on my translation are welcome.)
The only discussion I have seen of this passage is in the 1998 article
by René Klein, "Wer waren die Eltern des Grafen Sigfrid?", Association
Luxembourgeoise de Généalogie et d'Héraldique (Luxemburgische
Gesellschaft für Genealogie und Heraldik) 1998, 9-27. I do not accept
Klein's main thesis that Sigefroid of Luxemburg and his two siblings
Frédéric (duke of Upper Lorraine) and Giselbert were sons of an
otherwise unknown third marriage of Cunégonde with duke Giselbert of
Lorraine (supposedly married to Cunégonde before his known marriage to
Gerberge). However, I do wonder why this reference has been so widely
ignored. Klein states that Renn (p. 18, note 76, which I have not
seen) only mentions this in a footnote, and I do not recall the matter
being discussed in the remaining literature which I have seen.
One thing about the context of the passage can be added which Klein
failed to mention. Chapter 110 begins with the death of the bishop's
count palatine Hamadeus, and the question of the disposal of some land
which had been held by Hamadeus. Since Hamadeus was still alive in
945 (apparently having died soon after this), these events occurred
after the death of Adalbero's brother Gozlin (dead by 943), so that
the "fratres ex matre" of this passage would not include Gozlin
(called a "germanus" of Adalbero in an earlier chapter).
For a while, I was toying with the theory that all of Cunégonde's
children other than than Adalbero and Liutgarde (both definitely
children of Wigeric), including Gozlin, were by her second husband
Ricuin of Verdun. There are a number of things that were attractive
about this theory (especially if it is combined with the theory that
has occasionally been advanced that Ricuin was closely related to
Giselbert of Lorraine). However, the main problem with this theory is
that it would make the chronology of Gozlin improbably tight.
(Wigeric lived at least until 916, and Gozlin was dead by 943 with at
least four children.)
Thus, if the words "fratres ex matre" can be interpreted in the
obvious way, Adalbero had several ("plures") brothers by the same
mother, but not by the same father, suggesting that Frédéric,
Giselbert, and Sigefroid were sons of Cunégonde either by Ricuin or by
an otherwise unknown third marriage. The main reason for doubting
that Ricuin was the father is that if Gozlin was Wigeric's son (as
seems likely), the fact that Gozlin's descendants were counts of
Verdun suggests that Ricuin did not leave descendants to inherit
Verdun. Other factors which have been mentioned are the apparent ill
will between Adalbero and Ricuin, and the desirability of later
birthdates for Frédéric and Sigefroid, neither of whom appears to have
married before the 950's. Against these indications, there is the
lack of any direct evidence for a third husband of Cunégonde.
I would be interested in knowing about any discussion of this passage
about Adalbero's "fratres ex matre" which has appeared in the
literature. In particular, does Hlawitschka's article arguing against
Klein's theory (which I have not yet seen) discuss this point in any
detail?
Stewart Baldwin
of abbot John of Gorze, which I have mentioned briefly before. The
passage has a reference to several unnamed brothers through the mother
("fratres ex matre") of Adalbero I, bishop of Metz (son of Wigeric and
Cunégonde).
"Causa vero erat quod in his difficilis videbatur, quod fratres ei
plures ex matre erant, et eis usque ad id temporis parum consulere
potuerat, pluribus res episcopi retinentibus, quos privare nec
consilium erat - tanto robore ex superioribus episcoporum rebus
fractis nitebantur - et ideo hac vel qualibet occasione ipsis germanis
quo quid largiretur expectabat." (Translation: Indeed, the reason
that it seemed difficult was that there were several "fratres" of his
[i.e., of bishop Adalbero] "ex matre", and he had been able to look
after them very little up to this time, being detained by many
episcopal affairs, and there was no plan to deprive them - so much did
the weak depend for strength on the greater wealth of the bishops -
and thus in this way or anyhow by opportunity he hoped for that which
he might bestow on the said "germani".) [from "Vita Iohannis
Gorziensis", chapter 110, MGH SS 4: 368]. (This is not easy material
to translate, so comments on my translation are welcome.)
The only discussion I have seen of this passage is in the 1998 article
by René Klein, "Wer waren die Eltern des Grafen Sigfrid?", Association
Luxembourgeoise de Généalogie et d'Héraldique (Luxemburgische
Gesellschaft für Genealogie und Heraldik) 1998, 9-27. I do not accept
Klein's main thesis that Sigefroid of Luxemburg and his two siblings
Frédéric (duke of Upper Lorraine) and Giselbert were sons of an
otherwise unknown third marriage of Cunégonde with duke Giselbert of
Lorraine (supposedly married to Cunégonde before his known marriage to
Gerberge). However, I do wonder why this reference has been so widely
ignored. Klein states that Renn (p. 18, note 76, which I have not
seen) only mentions this in a footnote, and I do not recall the matter
being discussed in the remaining literature which I have seen.
One thing about the context of the passage can be added which Klein
failed to mention. Chapter 110 begins with the death of the bishop's
count palatine Hamadeus, and the question of the disposal of some land
which had been held by Hamadeus. Since Hamadeus was still alive in
945 (apparently having died soon after this), these events occurred
after the death of Adalbero's brother Gozlin (dead by 943), so that
the "fratres ex matre" of this passage would not include Gozlin
(called a "germanus" of Adalbero in an earlier chapter).
For a while, I was toying with the theory that all of Cunégonde's
children other than than Adalbero and Liutgarde (both definitely
children of Wigeric), including Gozlin, were by her second husband
Ricuin of Verdun. There are a number of things that were attractive
about this theory (especially if it is combined with the theory that
has occasionally been advanced that Ricuin was closely related to
Giselbert of Lorraine). However, the main problem with this theory is
that it would make the chronology of Gozlin improbably tight.
(Wigeric lived at least until 916, and Gozlin was dead by 943 with at
least four children.)
Thus, if the words "fratres ex matre" can be interpreted in the
obvious way, Adalbero had several ("plures") brothers by the same
mother, but not by the same father, suggesting that Frédéric,
Giselbert, and Sigefroid were sons of Cunégonde either by Ricuin or by
an otherwise unknown third marriage. The main reason for doubting
that Ricuin was the father is that if Gozlin was Wigeric's son (as
seems likely), the fact that Gozlin's descendants were counts of
Verdun suggests that Ricuin did not leave descendants to inherit
Verdun. Other factors which have been mentioned are the apparent ill
will between Adalbero and Ricuin, and the desirability of later
birthdates for Frédéric and Sigefroid, neither of whom appears to have
married before the 950's. Against these indications, there is the
lack of any direct evidence for a third husband of Cunégonde.
I would be interested in knowing about any discussion of this passage
about Adalbero's "fratres ex matre" which has appeared in the
literature. In particular, does Hlawitschka's article arguing against
Klein's theory (which I have not yet seen) discuss this point in any
detail?
Stewart Baldwin
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Adalbero I of Metz's "fratres ex matre"
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:4aren21e0ii2d67pnlmkokv619bvjnkab9@4ax.com...
I should have added before that Renn thought Cunégonde was the half-sister
of Giselbert, making a marriage between them preposterous: Klein ought to
have made this clear in the course of his speculations.
Whether or not she had the same father as Giselbert, the most plausible
reconstruction of Cunégonde's family seems to me that Adalbero, Gozlin,
Frederic and Sigfrid (i.e. all her sons apart from Giselbert, with
"Sigebert" being a later copyist's error for "Sigefred") were probably by
Wigeric, and that Giselbert was probably by Ricuin.
The placement of Giselbert before "Sigebert" in the later copy of their
sister-in-law Uda's 943 charter, the original being lost, is not a reliable
indication of their order of birth.
Very little is known about Giselbert, but if we had only the evidence that
did not connect a man of this name in the appropriate time & place to a set
of brothers we would surely speculate anyway that he was connected to Ricuin
of Verdun. As a younger half-brother of both Adalbero, bishop of Metz (on
his mother's side) and Otto, count of Verdun & duke of Lorraine (on his
father's side), he would have been notable enough to distinguish from the
group of Adalbero's "germani" in the Vita quoted earlier, and by implication
also in Otto I's diploma of June 960 naming Frederic as "germanus" to
Adalbero.
Peter Stewart
news:4aren21e0ii2d67pnlmkokv619bvjnkab9@4ax.com...
The main point of this posting is the following passage from the life
of abbot John of Gorze, which I have mentioned briefly before. The
passage has a reference to several unnamed brothers through the mother
("fratres ex matre") of Adalbero I, bishop of Metz (son of Wigeric and
Cunégonde).
"Causa vero erat quod in his difficilis videbatur, quod fratres ei
plures ex matre erant, et eis usque ad id temporis parum consulere
potuerat, pluribus res episcopi retinentibus, quos privare nec
consilium erat - tanto robore ex superioribus episcoporum rebus
fractis nitebantur - et ideo hac vel qualibet occasione ipsis germanis
quo quid largiretur expectabat." (Translation: Indeed, the reason
that it seemed difficult was that there were several "fratres" of his
[i.e., of bishop Adalbero] "ex matre", and he had been able to look
after them very little up to this time, being detained by many
episcopal affairs, and there was no plan to deprive them - so much did
the weak depend for strength on the greater wealth of the bishops -
and thus in this way or anyhow by opportunity he hoped for that which
he might bestow on the said "germani".) [from "Vita Iohannis
Gorziensis", chapter 110, MGH SS 4: 368]. (This is not easy material
to translate, so comments on my translation are welcome.)
The only discussion I have seen of this passage is in the 1998 article
by René Klein, "Wer waren die Eltern des Grafen Sigfrid?", Association
Luxembourgeoise de Généalogie et d'Héraldique (Luxemburgische
Gesellschaft für Genealogie und Heraldik) 1998, 9-27. I do not accept
Klein's main thesis that Sigefroid of Luxemburg and his two siblings
Frédéric (duke of Upper Lorraine) and Giselbert were sons of an
otherwise unknown third marriage of Cunégonde with duke Giselbert of
Lorraine (supposedly married to Cunégonde before his known marriage to
Gerberge). However, I do wonder why this reference has been so widely
ignored. Klein states that Renn (p. 18, note 76, which I have not
seen) only mentions this in a footnote, and I do not recall the matter
being discussed in the remaining literature which I have seen.
I should have added before that Renn thought Cunégonde was the half-sister
of Giselbert, making a marriage between them preposterous: Klein ought to
have made this clear in the course of his speculations.
Whether or not she had the same father as Giselbert, the most plausible
reconstruction of Cunégonde's family seems to me that Adalbero, Gozlin,
Frederic and Sigfrid (i.e. all her sons apart from Giselbert, with
"Sigebert" being a later copyist's error for "Sigefred") were probably by
Wigeric, and that Giselbert was probably by Ricuin.
The placement of Giselbert before "Sigebert" in the later copy of their
sister-in-law Uda's 943 charter, the original being lost, is not a reliable
indication of their order of birth.
Very little is known about Giselbert, but if we had only the evidence that
did not connect a man of this name in the appropriate time & place to a set
of brothers we would surely speculate anyway that he was connected to Ricuin
of Verdun. As a younger half-brother of both Adalbero, bishop of Metz (on
his mother's side) and Otto, count of Verdun & duke of Lorraine (on his
father's side), he would have been notable enough to distinguish from the
group of Adalbero's "germani" in the Vita quoted earlier, and by implication
also in Otto I's diploma of June 960 naming Frederic as "germanus" to
Adalbero.
Peter Stewart
-
Stewart Baldwin
Re: Adalbero I of Metz's "fratres ex matre"
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:38:34 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
[snip]
[I hope this gets through. Earthlink has been having trouble with
newsgroups for the last week that affects all Eartlink users.]
As you have said, I agree that the best interpretation of the words
"ex matre" would be that AT LEAST ONE of the brothers was by a father
different from Wigeric, and that in the absence of other evidence,
there would be no particular reason to assume any more detail than
that, or to prefer either "only one" or "all then living" (or
something in between). The chronology would certainly seem to fit
better if Frédéric and Sigefroid (both married in the mid-950's, it
seems) were not children of Wigeric, which is why (combined with the
knowledge that apparently not all of Cunégonde's children were by
Wigeric) I would lean in the direction of making these two sons of
Ricuin (or of a later third marriage, if there was one), lacking any
strong reason (so far as I have seen) for making these two sons of
Wigeric. I am curious why you would single out Giselbert as a
possible son of Ricuin. (Was it because he and Ricuin were both
lay-abbots of Moyenmoutier?)
Other than the onomastic argument (since Adalbero had a "patruus"
named Frédéric), I'm still not sure why Frédéric has been placed by
most as a son of Wigeric. Perhaps I am missing some of the main
arguments, since I have never seen a copy of Renn's book (which, so
far as I know, does not even exist in the western hemisphere). It
seems to me that the observations in the previous paragraph are, at
the very least, enough to cast some doubt on the claim that all of
Cunégonde's known children were by Wigeric. (For the benefit of those
who are interested, my still-unfinished Henry Project page on
Cunégonde currently has Wigeric as the father of Adalbero, Liutgarde,
and Gozlin, and leaves the paternity of Cunégonde's other children
unsettled. This is, of course, subject to change if I become
convinced in one direction or the other by the time I finish this page
and the pages of her near relatives.)
A couple of minor loose ends in this family:
1. Michel Parisse, in his article "Généalogie de la maison d'Ardenne",
p. 20, cites MGH SS IV, p. 378, evidently as a source which might
provide information on bishop Adalbero's age at death, but I find
nothing relevant to Adalbero on that page. Was Parisse's citation a
misprint? If so, what was the intended citation. (I note that
Adalbero appears on page 368, and has an obituary on page 378 of
volume 10 of MGH SS, but neither of these seem to be the citation
intended by Parisse.)
2. The secondary sources seem to make Adalbero the eldest son, but is
there really any solid evidence for this? Gozlin seems like a more
likely eldest son to me.
Stewart Baldwin
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
Whether or not she had the same father as Giselbert, the most plausible
reconstruction of Cunégonde's family seems to me that Adalbero, Gozlin,
Frederic and Sigfrid (i.e. all her sons apart from Giselbert, with
"Sigebert" being a later copyist's error for "Sigefred") were probably by
Wigeric, and that Giselbert was probably by Ricuin.
[snip]
[I hope this gets through. Earthlink has been having trouble with
newsgroups for the last week that affects all Eartlink users.]
As you have said, I agree that the best interpretation of the words
"ex matre" would be that AT LEAST ONE of the brothers was by a father
different from Wigeric, and that in the absence of other evidence,
there would be no particular reason to assume any more detail than
that, or to prefer either "only one" or "all then living" (or
something in between). The chronology would certainly seem to fit
better if Frédéric and Sigefroid (both married in the mid-950's, it
seems) were not children of Wigeric, which is why (combined with the
knowledge that apparently not all of Cunégonde's children were by
Wigeric) I would lean in the direction of making these two sons of
Ricuin (or of a later third marriage, if there was one), lacking any
strong reason (so far as I have seen) for making these two sons of
Wigeric. I am curious why you would single out Giselbert as a
possible son of Ricuin. (Was it because he and Ricuin were both
lay-abbots of Moyenmoutier?)
Other than the onomastic argument (since Adalbero had a "patruus"
named Frédéric), I'm still not sure why Frédéric has been placed by
most as a son of Wigeric. Perhaps I am missing some of the main
arguments, since I have never seen a copy of Renn's book (which, so
far as I know, does not even exist in the western hemisphere). It
seems to me that the observations in the previous paragraph are, at
the very least, enough to cast some doubt on the claim that all of
Cunégonde's known children were by Wigeric. (For the benefit of those
who are interested, my still-unfinished Henry Project page on
Cunégonde currently has Wigeric as the father of Adalbero, Liutgarde,
and Gozlin, and leaves the paternity of Cunégonde's other children
unsettled. This is, of course, subject to change if I become
convinced in one direction or the other by the time I finish this page
and the pages of her near relatives.)
A couple of minor loose ends in this family:
1. Michel Parisse, in his article "Généalogie de la maison d'Ardenne",
p. 20, cites MGH SS IV, p. 378, evidently as a source which might
provide information on bishop Adalbero's age at death, but I find
nothing relevant to Adalbero on that page. Was Parisse's citation a
misprint? If so, what was the intended citation. (I note that
Adalbero appears on page 368, and has an obituary on page 378 of
volume 10 of MGH SS, but neither of these seem to be the citation
intended by Parisse.)
2. The secondary sources seem to make Adalbero the eldest son, but is
there really any solid evidence for this? Gozlin seems like a more
likely eldest son to me.
Stewart Baldwin
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Adalbero I of Metz's "fratres ex matre"
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:uqa1o2lvdc77fjajcve27p422r6581jnq7@4ax.com...
Yes, that would lead to conjecture that Giselbert was connected by blood to
Ricuin if we knew nothing else about him - and we know very little, except
that a man of this name was brother to Cunégonde's other sons and probably
married to Hadwide, apparently with a son named Godefrid.
It may be that Cunégonde had another son (or more than one) by Ricuin who
have left no trace and whose names are unknown, but I doubt it. I think the
conjecture that she had a third husband is utterly unnecessary. I agree with
Parisot and Renn that the chronology is not that much of a problem: the idea
that Sigefrid as a son of Wigeric (who died between mid 916 & 919) could not
have had children born in the 970s some of whom lived until the 1030s and
1040s is misguided. Patterns of family and reproductive life are not
prescriptive, and extreme variance exists in every aspect of human life.
Genealogical difficulties must be approached with due allowance for this.
Parisot gave a good example, I have a friend who was born when his father
was 63 years old. William the Conqueror's eldest son Robert Curthose, duke
of Normandy, was 47 or 48 when he finally married, and there are many other
similar cases. Some people tend to imagine that medieval aristocrats were
all somewhat like Henry VIII, toxically obsessed with getting sons to
continue their upstart dynasties.
The evidence seems clear enough that it would be accepted without question
if not for the length of time between the death of Wigeric in 916/9 and that
of his gransdon Thierry, bishop of Metz, in 1046 (or 1047). Adalbero, bishop
of Metz (died 962) and Count Gozlin are acknowledged to be Wigeric's sons.
Frederic had the same name as Wigeric's brother and was called "germanus"
(full-brother) to Adalbero in an imperial diploma of June 960. Sigefrid was
called "patruus" (paternal uncle) to Gozlin's son in a letter written by
Gerbert of Aurillac (later Pope Sylvester II). Donald Jackman has offered
an explanation of this that is as slick as it is silly, proposing that
adoption had taken place within a wider kinship, somehow causing Gerbert,
who was not related but would have known the details, to use an inaccurate
term current within the family - "Godfrey might have been Siegfried's first
cousin once removed, but still have regarded him as uncle" - adding the
gratuitous nonsense that "Sigebert" might have been a variant of Sigifred
used to distinguish him as a ring-in - "A possible cause is that Siegfried
was someone whom they regarded as 'frater' without actually being their
brother, and for this reason they were accunstomed to using an inaccurate
name-form". The inanity of this kind of rationalisation is obvious. The form
"Sigebert" appears only once, in a later copy of a lost document that may
have been simply mistranscribed.
Parisse was evidently mistaken, there is no source indicating Adalbero's age
at the time of his death according to the study by Karl Wichmann in
_Jahrbuch der Gesellschaft für lothringisches Geschichte und Altertumskunde_
3 (1891). He, Witte, Renn and others would surely not have overlooked such
evidence in MGH SS IV or elsewhere - Wichmann placed Adalbero's birth ca 900
(pp. 109-110). Maybe Parisse had in mind the passage in Vita Johannis
Gorziensis stating that Adalbero's paternal uncle Frederic, abbot of
Saint-Hubert, advised him in his early years as bishop of Metz, when he was
"tunc iunioris aetatis", but this is not enough to narrow his birth to ca
902-905 as Parisse suggested.
There is a diploma of Charles the Simple, undated but ascribed by editors to
911/15, naming Count Wigeric's wife Cunegundis and one of their sons
Adalbero, that has probably led to placing him as the eldest, but the
context does not warrant this. However, there does not seem to be any good
reason to place Gozlin as the elder brother just because he became a count
instead of a bishop. Witte touched on this point in his paper cited by
Parisse, p. 41.
Peter Stewart
news:uqa1o2lvdc77fjajcve27p422r6581jnq7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:38:34 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
Whether or not she had the same father as Giselbert, the most plausible
reconstruction of Cunégonde's family seems to me that Adalbero, Gozlin,
Frederic and Sigfrid (i.e. all her sons apart from Giselbert, with
"Sigebert" being a later copyist's error for "Sigefred") were probably by
Wigeric, and that Giselbert was probably by Ricuin.
[snip]
[I hope this gets through. Earthlink has been having trouble with
newsgroups for the last week that affects all Eartlink users.]
As you have said, I agree that the best interpretation of the words
"ex matre" would be that AT LEAST ONE of the brothers was by a father
different from Wigeric, and that in the absence of other evidence,
there would be no particular reason to assume any more detail than
that, or to prefer either "only one" or "all then living" (or
something in between). The chronology would certainly seem to fit
better if Frédéric and Sigefroid (both married in the mid-950's, it
seems) were not children of Wigeric, which is why (combined with the
knowledge that apparently not all of Cunégonde's children were by
Wigeric) I would lean in the direction of making these two sons of
Ricuin (or of a later third marriage, if there was one), lacking any
strong reason (so far as I have seen) for making these two sons of
Wigeric. I am curious why you would single out Giselbert as a
possible son of Ricuin. (Was it because he and Ricuin were both
lay-abbots of Moyenmoutier?)
Yes, that would lead to conjecture that Giselbert was connected by blood to
Ricuin if we knew nothing else about him - and we know very little, except
that a man of this name was brother to Cunégonde's other sons and probably
married to Hadwide, apparently with a son named Godefrid.
It may be that Cunégonde had another son (or more than one) by Ricuin who
have left no trace and whose names are unknown, but I doubt it. I think the
conjecture that she had a third husband is utterly unnecessary. I agree with
Parisot and Renn that the chronology is not that much of a problem: the idea
that Sigefrid as a son of Wigeric (who died between mid 916 & 919) could not
have had children born in the 970s some of whom lived until the 1030s and
1040s is misguided. Patterns of family and reproductive life are not
prescriptive, and extreme variance exists in every aspect of human life.
Genealogical difficulties must be approached with due allowance for this.
Parisot gave a good example, I have a friend who was born when his father
was 63 years old. William the Conqueror's eldest son Robert Curthose, duke
of Normandy, was 47 or 48 when he finally married, and there are many other
similar cases. Some people tend to imagine that medieval aristocrats were
all somewhat like Henry VIII, toxically obsessed with getting sons to
continue their upstart dynasties.
Other than the onomastic argument (since Adalbero had a "patruus"
named Frédéric), I'm still not sure why Frédéric has been placed by
most as a son of Wigeric. Perhaps I am missing some of the main
arguments, since I have never seen a copy of Renn's book (which, so
far as I know, does not even exist in the western hemisphere). It
seems to me that the observations in the previous paragraph are, at
the very least, enough to cast some doubt on the claim that all of
Cunégonde's known children were by Wigeric. (For the benefit of those
who are interested, my still-unfinished Henry Project page on
Cunégonde currently has Wigeric as the father of Adalbero, Liutgarde,
and Gozlin, and leaves the paternity of Cunégonde's other children
unsettled. This is, of course, subject to change if I become
convinced in one direction or the other by the time I finish this page
and the pages of her near relatives.)
The evidence seems clear enough that it would be accepted without question
if not for the length of time between the death of Wigeric in 916/9 and that
of his gransdon Thierry, bishop of Metz, in 1046 (or 1047). Adalbero, bishop
of Metz (died 962) and Count Gozlin are acknowledged to be Wigeric's sons.
Frederic had the same name as Wigeric's brother and was called "germanus"
(full-brother) to Adalbero in an imperial diploma of June 960. Sigefrid was
called "patruus" (paternal uncle) to Gozlin's son in a letter written by
Gerbert of Aurillac (later Pope Sylvester II). Donald Jackman has offered
an explanation of this that is as slick as it is silly, proposing that
adoption had taken place within a wider kinship, somehow causing Gerbert,
who was not related but would have known the details, to use an inaccurate
term current within the family - "Godfrey might have been Siegfried's first
cousin once removed, but still have regarded him as uncle" - adding the
gratuitous nonsense that "Sigebert" might have been a variant of Sigifred
used to distinguish him as a ring-in - "A possible cause is that Siegfried
was someone whom they regarded as 'frater' without actually being their
brother, and for this reason they were accunstomed to using an inaccurate
name-form". The inanity of this kind of rationalisation is obvious. The form
"Sigebert" appears only once, in a later copy of a lost document that may
have been simply mistranscribed.
A couple of minor loose ends in this family:
1. Michel Parisse, in his article "Généalogie de la maison d'Ardenne",
p. 20, cites MGH SS IV, p. 378, evidently as a source which might
provide information on bishop Adalbero's age at death, but I find
nothing relevant to Adalbero on that page. Was Parisse's citation a
misprint? If so, what was the intended citation. (I note that
Adalbero appears on page 368, and has an obituary on page 378 of
volume 10 of MGH SS, but neither of these seem to be the citation
intended by Parisse.)
Parisse was evidently mistaken, there is no source indicating Adalbero's age
at the time of his death according to the study by Karl Wichmann in
_Jahrbuch der Gesellschaft für lothringisches Geschichte und Altertumskunde_
3 (1891). He, Witte, Renn and others would surely not have overlooked such
evidence in MGH SS IV or elsewhere - Wichmann placed Adalbero's birth ca 900
(pp. 109-110). Maybe Parisse had in mind the passage in Vita Johannis
Gorziensis stating that Adalbero's paternal uncle Frederic, abbot of
Saint-Hubert, advised him in his early years as bishop of Metz, when he was
"tunc iunioris aetatis", but this is not enough to narrow his birth to ca
902-905 as Parisse suggested.
2. The secondary sources seem to make Adalbero the eldest son, but is
there really any solid evidence for this? Gozlin seems like a more
likely eldest son to me.
There is a diploma of Charles the Simple, undated but ascribed by editors to
911/15, naming Count Wigeric's wife Cunegundis and one of their sons
Adalbero, that has probably led to placing him as the eldest, but the
context does not warrant this. However, there does not seem to be any good
reason to place Gozlin as the elder brother just because he became a count
instead of a bishop. Witte touched on this point in his paper cited by
Parisse, p. 41.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Adalbero I of Metz's "fratres ex matre"
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:uqa1o2lvdc77fjajcve27p422r6581jnq7@4ax.com...
Yes, that would lead to conjecture that Giselbert was connected by blood to
Ricuin if we knew nothing else about him - and we know very little, except
that a man of this name was brother to Cunégonde's other sons and probably
married to Hadwide, apparently with a son named Godefrid.
It may be that Cunégonde had another son (or more than one) by Ricuin who
have left no trace and whose names are unknown, but I doubt it. I think the
conjecture that she had a third husband is utterly unnecessary. I agree with
Parisot and Renn that the chronology is not that much of a problem: the idea
that Sigefrid as a son of Wigeric (who died between mid 916 & 919) could not
have had children born in the 970s some of whom lived until the 1030s and
1040s is misguided. Patterns of family and reproductive life are not
prescriptive, and extreme variance exists in every aspect of human life.
Genealogical difficulties must be approached with due allowance for this.
Parisot gave a good example, I have a friend who was born when his father
was 63 years old. William the Conqueror's eldest son Robert Curthose, duke
of Normandy, was 47 or 48 when he finally married, and there are many other
similar cases. Some people tend to imagine that medieval aristocrats were
all somewhat like Henry VIII, toxically obsessed with getting sons to
continue their upstart dynasties.
The evidence seems clear enough that it would be accepted without question
if not for the length of time between the death of Wigeric in 916/9 and that
of his gransdon Thierry, bishop of Metz, in 1046 (or 1047). Adalbero, bishop
of Metz (died 962) and Count Gozlin are acknowledged to be Wigeric's sons.
Frederic had the same name as Wigeric's brother and was called "germanus"
(full-brother) to Adalbero in an imperial diploma of June 960. Sigefrid was
called "patruus" (paternal uncle) to Gozlin's son in a letter written by
Gerbert of Aurillac (later Pope Sylvester II). Donald Jackman has offered
an explanation of this that is as slick as it is silly, proposing that
adoption had taken place within a wider kinship, somehow causing Gerbert,
who was not related but would have known the details, to use an inaccurate
term current within the family - "Godfrey might have been Siegfried's first
cousin once removed, but still have regarded him as uncle" - adding the
gratuitous nonsense that "Sigebert" might have been a variant of Sigifred
used to distinguish him as a ring-in - "A possible cause is that Siegfried
was someone whom they regarded as 'frater' without actually being their
brother, and for this reason they were accunstomed to using an inaccurate
name-form". The inanity of this kind of rationalisation is obvious. The form
"Sigebert" appears only once, in a later copy of a lost document that may
have been simply mistranscribed.
Parisse was evidently mistaken, there is no source indicating Adalbero's age
at the time of his death according to the study by Karl Wichmann in
_Jahrbuch der Gesellschaft für lothringisches Geschichte und Altertumskunde_
3 (1891). He, Witte, Renn and others would surely not have overlooked such
evidence in MGH SS IV or elsewhere - Wichmann placed Adalbero's birth ca 900
(pp. 109-110). Maybe Parisse had in mind the passage in Vita Johannis
Gorziensis stating that Adalbero's paternal uncle Frederic, abbot of
Saint-Hubert, advised him in his early years as bishop of Metz, when he was
"tunc iunioris aetatis", but this is not enough to narrow his birth to ca
902-905 as Parisse suggested.
There is a diploma of Charles the Simple, undated but ascribed by editors to
911/15, naming Count Wigeric's wife Cunegundis and one of their sons
Adalbero, that has probably led to placing him as the eldest, but the
context does not warrant this. However, there does not seem to be any good
reason to place Gozlin as the elder brother just because he became a count
instead of a bishop. Witte touched on this point in his paper cited by
Parisse, p. 41.
Peter Stewart
news:uqa1o2lvdc77fjajcve27p422r6581jnq7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:38:34 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
Whether or not she had the same father as Giselbert, the most plausible
reconstruction of Cunégonde's family seems to me that Adalbero, Gozlin,
Frederic and Sigfrid (i.e. all her sons apart from Giselbert, with
"Sigebert" being a later copyist's error for "Sigefred") were probably by
Wigeric, and that Giselbert was probably by Ricuin.
[snip]
[I hope this gets through. Earthlink has been having trouble with
newsgroups for the last week that affects all Eartlink users.]
As you have said, I agree that the best interpretation of the words
"ex matre" would be that AT LEAST ONE of the brothers was by a father
different from Wigeric, and that in the absence of other evidence,
there would be no particular reason to assume any more detail than
that, or to prefer either "only one" or "all then living" (or
something in between). The chronology would certainly seem to fit
better if Frédéric and Sigefroid (both married in the mid-950's, it
seems) were not children of Wigeric, which is why (combined with the
knowledge that apparently not all of Cunégonde's children were by
Wigeric) I would lean in the direction of making these two sons of
Ricuin (or of a later third marriage, if there was one), lacking any
strong reason (so far as I have seen) for making these two sons of
Wigeric. I am curious why you would single out Giselbert as a
possible son of Ricuin. (Was it because he and Ricuin were both
lay-abbots of Moyenmoutier?)
Yes, that would lead to conjecture that Giselbert was connected by blood to
Ricuin if we knew nothing else about him - and we know very little, except
that a man of this name was brother to Cunégonde's other sons and probably
married to Hadwide, apparently with a son named Godefrid.
It may be that Cunégonde had another son (or more than one) by Ricuin who
have left no trace and whose names are unknown, but I doubt it. I think the
conjecture that she had a third husband is utterly unnecessary. I agree with
Parisot and Renn that the chronology is not that much of a problem: the idea
that Sigefrid as a son of Wigeric (who died between mid 916 & 919) could not
have had children born in the 970s some of whom lived until the 1030s and
1040s is misguided. Patterns of family and reproductive life are not
prescriptive, and extreme variance exists in every aspect of human life.
Genealogical difficulties must be approached with due allowance for this.
Parisot gave a good example, I have a friend who was born when his father
was 63 years old. William the Conqueror's eldest son Robert Curthose, duke
of Normandy, was 47 or 48 when he finally married, and there are many other
similar cases. Some people tend to imagine that medieval aristocrats were
all somewhat like Henry VIII, toxically obsessed with getting sons to
continue their upstart dynasties.
Other than the onomastic argument (since Adalbero had a "patruus"
named Frédéric), I'm still not sure why Frédéric has been placed by
most as a son of Wigeric. Perhaps I am missing some of the main
arguments, since I have never seen a copy of Renn's book (which, so
far as I know, does not even exist in the western hemisphere). It
seems to me that the observations in the previous paragraph are, at
the very least, enough to cast some doubt on the claim that all of
Cunégonde's known children were by Wigeric. (For the benefit of those
who are interested, my still-unfinished Henry Project page on
Cunégonde currently has Wigeric as the father of Adalbero, Liutgarde,
and Gozlin, and leaves the paternity of Cunégonde's other children
unsettled. This is, of course, subject to change if I become
convinced in one direction or the other by the time I finish this page
and the pages of her near relatives.)
The evidence seems clear enough that it would be accepted without question
if not for the length of time between the death of Wigeric in 916/9 and that
of his gransdon Thierry, bishop of Metz, in 1046 (or 1047). Adalbero, bishop
of Metz (died 962) and Count Gozlin are acknowledged to be Wigeric's sons.
Frederic had the same name as Wigeric's brother and was called "germanus"
(full-brother) to Adalbero in an imperial diploma of June 960. Sigefrid was
called "patruus" (paternal uncle) to Gozlin's son in a letter written by
Gerbert of Aurillac (later Pope Sylvester II). Donald Jackman has offered
an explanation of this that is as slick as it is silly, proposing that
adoption had taken place within a wider kinship, somehow causing Gerbert,
who was not related but would have known the details, to use an inaccurate
term current within the family - "Godfrey might have been Siegfried's first
cousin once removed, but still have regarded him as uncle" - adding the
gratuitous nonsense that "Sigebert" might have been a variant of Sigifred
used to distinguish him as a ring-in - "A possible cause is that Siegfried
was someone whom they regarded as 'frater' without actually being their
brother, and for this reason they were accunstomed to using an inaccurate
name-form". The inanity of this kind of rationalisation is obvious. The form
"Sigebert" appears only once, in a later copy of a lost document that may
have been simply mistranscribed.
A couple of minor loose ends in this family:
1. Michel Parisse, in his article "Généalogie de la maison d'Ardenne",
p. 20, cites MGH SS IV, p. 378, evidently as a source which might
provide information on bishop Adalbero's age at death, but I find
nothing relevant to Adalbero on that page. Was Parisse's citation a
misprint? If so, what was the intended citation. (I note that
Adalbero appears on page 368, and has an obituary on page 378 of
volume 10 of MGH SS, but neither of these seem to be the citation
intended by Parisse.)
Parisse was evidently mistaken, there is no source indicating Adalbero's age
at the time of his death according to the study by Karl Wichmann in
_Jahrbuch der Gesellschaft für lothringisches Geschichte und Altertumskunde_
3 (1891). He, Witte, Renn and others would surely not have overlooked such
evidence in MGH SS IV or elsewhere - Wichmann placed Adalbero's birth ca 900
(pp. 109-110). Maybe Parisse had in mind the passage in Vita Johannis
Gorziensis stating that Adalbero's paternal uncle Frederic, abbot of
Saint-Hubert, advised him in his early years as bishop of Metz, when he was
"tunc iunioris aetatis", but this is not enough to narrow his birth to ca
902-905 as Parisse suggested.
2. The secondary sources seem to make Adalbero the eldest son, but is
there really any solid evidence for this? Gozlin seems like a more
likely eldest son to me.
There is a diploma of Charles the Simple, undated but ascribed by editors to
911/15, naming Count Wigeric's wife Cunegundis and one of their sons
Adalbero, that has probably led to placing him as the eldest, but the
context does not warrant this. However, there does not seem to be any good
reason to place Gozlin as the elder brother just because he became a count
instead of a bishop. Witte touched on this point in his paper cited by
Parisse, p. 41.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Adalbero I of Metz's "fratres ex matre"
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:f52hh.9362$HU.3101@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
I had trouble too, hence the duplication of the message - though I have no
idea why it came through twice, as the first time I got an error message
saying the post could not be delivered, yet clearly it had been received by
the newsgroup server.
Peter Stewart
news:f52hh.9362$HU.3101@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:uqa1o2lvdc77fjajcve27p422r6581jnq7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:38:34 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
Whether or not she had the same father as Giselbert, the most plausible
reconstruction of Cunégonde's family seems to me that Adalbero, Gozlin,
Frederic and Sigfrid (i.e. all her sons apart from Giselbert, with
"Sigebert" being a later copyist's error for "Sigefred") were probably by
Wigeric, and that Giselbert was probably by Ricuin.
[snip]
[I hope this gets through. Earthlink has been having trouble with
newsgroups for the last week that affects all Eartlink users.]
I had trouble too, hence the duplication of the message - though I have no
idea why it came through twice, as the first time I got an error message
saying the post could not be delivered, yet clearly it had been received by
the newsgroup server.
Peter Stewart
-
mike
Re: Adalbero I of Metz's "fratres ex matre"
The evidence seems clear enough that it would be accepted without question
if not for the length of time between the death of Wigeric in 916/9 and that
of his gransdon Thierry, bishop of Metz, in 1046 (or 1047). Adalbero, bishop
of Metz (died 962) and Count Gozlin are acknowledged to be Wigeric's sons.
Frederic had the same name as Wigeric's brother and was called "germanus"
(full-brother) to Adalbero in an imperial diploma of June 960. Sigefrid was
called "patruus" (paternal uncle) to Gozlin's son in a letter written by
Gerbert of Aurillac (later Pope Sylvester II).
2. The secondary sources seem to make Adalbero the eldest son, but is
there really any solid evidence for this? Gozlin seems like a more
likely eldest son to me.
There is a diploma of Charles the Simple, undated but ascribed by editors to
911/15, naming Count Wigeric's wife Cunegundis and one of their sons
Adalbero, that has probably led to placing him as the eldest, but the
context does not warrant this. However, there does not seem to be any good
reason to place Gozlin as the elder brother just because he became a count
instead of a bishop. Witte touched on this point in his paper cited by
Parisse, p. 41.
Peter Stewart
Just reading some older posts. This is a very useful discussion for
those who dont have access to scholarly sources. Can I ask some related
questions and points? Sorry if there's any glaring errors.
1. That Sigfrid is never called son of Wigeric. In fact his father is
never named.
2. Wigeric died 916/19, Sigfrid in 998 and Theirry his son in 1046. So
Thierry died about 130 years after his grandfather. That would be
unusual even today. However in the maternal line it looks more normal:
Louis d.879---Ermentrude---Cunegund---Sigfrid d.998---Theirry d.1046
I dont know which marriage produced Ermentrude, but she couldn't have
been born later than 878, So Cunegund must have been very young when
married to Wigeric, possibly when Charles III took over Lotharingia
after 910/12? This would mean that Adelbero was quite young when he
became bishop: not unlikely in this period, Hugh of Vermandois was even
younger, but he must have had some very powerful relatives to enable
this. Maybe thats another why this Abbot Frederic is thought to have
been a close relative.
3. Whether Sigfrid was son of Rikwin (d.923) or Wigeric would not make
much difference to his unusual longevity. Are there any other laymen
who lived to be about 80 in the 10th century?
4. So I can understand if scholars have supposed a 3rd marriage for
Cunegund. Sigfrid only appears in the sources from about 960 to 998. Is
there any evidence in the sources about how Sigfrid obtained Luxemburg
and became so prominent that his daughter married an Emperor? Was it
only Cunegund's carolingian ancestry that made the match attractive?
5. Has there been any discussion about who was Cunegund's father by
scholars? Am I right in thinking Cunegund wasn't a usual 'Carolingian'
girls name, but does appear in other noble families. Didnt William of
Gellone have a wife of that name?
6. Who succeeded to Verdun at the death of Otto son of Rikwin in 944:
was it Gozlin or Giselbert? It just occurred to me that if Rikwin had
children by Cunegund, it might be expected that they would succeed to
Verdun.
thanks
Mike
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Adalbero I of Metz's "fratres ex matre"
Glad to see Mike's questions. If I could add one of my own, I've often
wondered how certain is the identification of Ermentrude (mother of
Cunegonde) as a daughter of Louis II?
Roger LeBlanc
wondered how certain is the identification of Ermentrude (mother of
Cunegonde) as a daughter of Louis II?
Roger LeBlanc
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Adalbero I of Metz's "fratres ex matre"
"mike" <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1166886822.868154.55110@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
Sigefrid was called "patruus" to the son of Wigeric's son Gozlin. This was
written by Gerbert of Aurillac (later Pope Sylvester II), who would have
known the facts and would have expected to be understood as meaning a
paternal uncle. This word was normally specific to agnatic relationships,
with "avunculus" used more loosely for any other kind of uncle, including a
uterine half-brother of the father as well as a full- or half-breother of
the mother.
Abbot Frederic was stated to be the father's brother of Wigeric's son
Adelbero. Ermentrude is said by Witger to have been a daughter of Louis the
Stammerer by his second wife, Adelais. We don't know when she was born - it
could have been any time from ca 867 onwards. Her full-brother Charles the
Simple was born posthumously, in September 879, but the births of daughters
were hardly ever noted by chroniclers.
There must have been many - the biblical span of 70 years was based on
observation of human longevity & this age was not a rare achievement at any
time. Living to 80 or 90 was not considered a great prodigy in the middle
ages.
She didn't marry an emperor, only a duke of Bavaria. He became German king
two years after they were married, and emperor more than a decade after
that.
Yes, this was his first wife's name - but in the case in question it was not
a "Carolingian" girl's name as only her mother came from that family, not
her father.
Verdun eventually belonged to Wigeric's grandson Godefrid the Captive, but
we don't have a continuous record of the counts at this time. There may have
been one named Rodulf after Ricuin's son Otto, but if so he was not
succeeded there by his own sons. We don't know enough about Giselbert to say
for certain whether or not he was ever count of Verdun.
Peter Stewart
news:1166886822.868154.55110@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
1. That Sigfrid is never called son of Wigeric. In fact his father is
never named.
Sigefrid was called "patruus" to the son of Wigeric's son Gozlin. This was
written by Gerbert of Aurillac (later Pope Sylvester II), who would have
known the facts and would have expected to be understood as meaning a
paternal uncle. This word was normally specific to agnatic relationships,
with "avunculus" used more loosely for any other kind of uncle, including a
uterine half-brother of the father as well as a full- or half-breother of
the mother.
2. Wigeric died 916/19, Sigfrid in 998 and Theirry his son in 1046. So
Thierry died about 130 years after his grandfather. That would be
unusual even today. However in the maternal line it looks more normal:
Louis d.879---Ermentrude---Cunegund---Sigfrid d.998---Theirry d.1046
I dont know which marriage produced Ermentrude, but she couldn't have
been born later than 878, So Cunegund must have been very young when
married to Wigeric, possibly when Charles III took over Lotharingia
after 910/12? This would mean that Adelbero was quite young when he
became bishop: not unlikely in this period, Hugh of Vermandois was even
younger, but he must have had some very powerful relatives to enable
this. Maybe thats another why this Abbot Frederic is thought to have
been a close relative.
Abbot Frederic was stated to be the father's brother of Wigeric's son
Adelbero. Ermentrude is said by Witger to have been a daughter of Louis the
Stammerer by his second wife, Adelais. We don't know when she was born - it
could have been any time from ca 867 onwards. Her full-brother Charles the
Simple was born posthumously, in September 879, but the births of daughters
were hardly ever noted by chroniclers.
3. Whether Sigfrid was son of Rikwin (d.923) or Wigeric would not make
much difference to his unusual longevity. Are there any other laymen
who lived to be about 80 in the 10th century?
There must have been many - the biblical span of 70 years was based on
observation of human longevity & this age was not a rare achievement at any
time. Living to 80 or 90 was not considered a great prodigy in the middle
ages.
4. So I can understand if scholars have supposed a 3rd marriage for
Cunegund. Sigfrid only appears in the sources from about 960 to 998. Is
there any evidence in the sources about how Sigfrid obtained Luxemburg
and became so prominent that his daughter married an Emperor? Was it
only Cunegund's carolingian ancestry that made the match attractive?
She didn't marry an emperor, only a duke of Bavaria. He became German king
two years after they were married, and emperor more than a decade after
that.
5. Has there been any discussion about who was Cunegund's father by
scholars? Am I right in thinking Cunegund wasn't a usual 'Carolingian'
girls name, but does appear in other noble families. Didnt William of
Gellone have a wife of that name?
Yes, this was his first wife's name - but in the case in question it was not
a "Carolingian" girl's name as only her mother came from that family, not
her father.
6. Who succeeded to Verdun at the death of Otto son of Rikwin in 944:
was it Gozlin or Giselbert? It just occurred to me that if Rikwin had
children by Cunegund, it might be expected that they would succeed to
Verdun.
Verdun eventually belonged to Wigeric's grandson Godefrid the Captive, but
we don't have a continuous record of the counts at this time. There may have
been one named Rodulf after Ricuin's son Otto, but if so he was not
succeeded there by his own sons. We don't know enough about Giselbert to say
for certain whether or not he was ever count of Verdun.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Adalbero I of Metz's "fratres ex matre"
"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.178.1166925994.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Quite certain - we have Witger's genealogy referred to in my last post
naming Ermentrude as daughter of Louis II's second wife, and the diploma of
Charles the Simple already mentioned that calls Adelbero (later bishop of
Metz) his "nepos", i.e. son of his niece Cunegundis.
Peter Stewart
news:mailman.178.1166925994.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Glad to see Mike's questions. If I could add one of my own, I've often
wondered how certain is the identification of Ermentrude (mother of
Cunegonde) as a daughter of Louis II?
Quite certain - we have Witger's genealogy referred to in my last post
naming Ermentrude as daughter of Louis II's second wife, and the diploma of
Charles the Simple already mentioned that calls Adelbero (later bishop of
Metz) his "nepos", i.e. son of his niece Cunegundis.
Peter Stewart