The Tosny Family of Belvoir

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Chuck Owens

The Tosny Family of Belvoir

Legg inn av Chuck Owens » 30 nov 2006 17:52:44

Hello,

I was wondering what the latest consensus was on where the Tosnys of
Belvoir fit into the Tosny family tree. Circumstantial evidence seems
to point in the direction of Robert de Tosny and his brother Berengar
Hispina de Tosny being sons of Roger I "the Spaniard" de Tosny by
"Estefania" de Barcelona, daughter of Conde Ramon Borrell de Barcelona,
since Berengar is an unusual name, since Roger I de Tosny's
brother-in-law was Berengar Ramon, and since "Hispina" may be a
misspelling of "Hispana" which translated from Latin means "of Spain".

Has anybody found any evidence which contradicts the above hypothesis
regarding the origin of the Tosny family of Belvoir?

I'm interested in any comments or opinions regarding the Tosny family.

Thanks,

Chuck Owens

Stewart Baldwin

Re: The Tosny Family of Belvoir

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 30 nov 2006 22:53:18

On 30 Nov 2006 08:52:44 -0800, "Chuck Owens" <cancertech7@yahoo.com>
wrote:

I was wondering what the latest consensus was on where the Tosnys of
Belvoir fit into the Tosny family tree. Circumstantial evidence seems
to point in the direction of Robert de Tosny and his brother Berengar
Hispina de Tosny being sons of Roger I "the Spaniard" de Tosny by
"Estefania" de Barcelona, daughter of Conde Ramon Borrell de Barcelona,
since Berengar is an unusual name, since Roger I de Tosny's
brother-in-law was Berengar Ramon, and since "Hispina" may be a
misspelling of "Hispana" which translated from Latin means "of Spain".

Has anybody found any evidence which contradicts the above hypothesis
regarding the origin of the Tosny family of Belvoir?

I'm interested in any comments or opinions regarding the Tosny family.

I was also wondering about the placement of Robert of Belvoir at the
time that I wrote up a page for Godehilde (second wife of Roger de
Tosny) for my Henry Project website (at the following URL).

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... deh000.htm

The obvious obstacle (but not necessarily a definitive one) to your
suggestion is that Roger de Tosny is generally regarded as the father
of another Robert, ancestor of the Staffords (based on evidence which
seems reasonable, but less than ideal), and if this is correct, it
would be unlikely that Roger was father to a second Robert.

Since it was somewhat tangential to the work I was doing, I did not
embark on a detailed examination of this generation of the genealogy
of the Tosny family at that time, but I was also unsatisfied by the
details of the genealogical documentation in the treatments which I
saw. It seems to me that a more detailed genealogical study of this
generation of the Tosnys would be desirable, which also carefully
reexamines the placement of Robert de Stafford. It seems clear that
the feasibility of your suggestion would be closely related to the
result of such a reexamination.

Stewart Baldwin

Chuck Owens

Re: The Tosny Family of Belvoir

Legg inn av Chuck Owens » 01 des 2006 01:32:50

I'm not really happy with the sources that I've seen so far. I've
already checked some of the sources that you refer to on your Godehilde
web page and other sources, and I can't find anything definite on the
origin of the Belvoir family other than the generic statement that they
are connected to the main Tosny family in some way. I don't have
access to a copy of the article "Aux origines d'une classe dirigeante:
les Tosny, grands barons normands du Xe au XIIIe siècle", Francia 5
(1977): 45-80, so I'm not sure whether it mentions the Belvoir family
or not.

I'ts funny that Sampson Erdeswicke in his Survey of Staffordshire, page
122 gives Robert de Stafford's father as a "Richard de Toeni". I'm
sure it's a typo.

Chuck Owens

Peter Stewart

Re: The Tosny Family of Belvoir

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 01 des 2006 03:26:01

"Chuck Owens" <cancertech7@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1164933170.846178.100330@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
I'm not really happy with the sources that I've seen so far. I've
already checked some of the sources that you refer to on your
Godehilde web page and other sources, and I can't find anything
definite on the origin of the Belvoir family other than the generic
statement that they are connected to the main Tosny family in
some way. I don't have access to a copy of the article "Aux
origines d'une classe dirigeante: les Tosny, grands barons
normands du Xe au XIIIe siècle", Francia 5 (1977): 45-80, so
I'm not sure whether it mentions the Belvoir family or not.

It does, but Musset leaves open the question of their attachment, connected
either through his Ralph I (died ca 1024, son of Hugo de Cavalcamp - rather
than a grandson called Ralph II as others have since speculated) or through
Roger I (died ca 1040, identified with Roger "Hispanicus" as by Stewart).

The more plausible reconstruction, in the absence of direct evidence, seems
to me the one put forward (NB going from memory) by Katherine Keats-Rohan,
making Roger "Hispanicus" a cognatic first cousin of Roger I. The Tosny
family of Belvoir is then derived from Roger "Hispanicus", and the Stafford
family from Roger I, seigneur of Conches.

The main difficulty is that no direct evidence exists for the fathers of
either Roger "Hispanicus" or Roger I in this version, but chronologically
the addition of an extra generation in each line from Ralph I son of Hugo de
Cavalcamp is plausible.

Peter Stewart

Chuck Owens

Re: The Tosny Family of Belvoir

Legg inn av Chuck Owens » 01 des 2006 19:03:14

The reconstruction put forward by Katherine keats-Rohan is interesting.
It resolves the issue of "Estefania" de Barcelona & Godhilde and the
issue of Robert de Stafford & Robert of Belvoir as well. I'm going to
do more digging around to see what else I can find.

According to the following source, Roger "Hispanicus" de Tosny's father
was Rodulf. I'm not sure how reliable this source is.

Bibliothèque historique de l'Yonne; ou, Collection de légendes,
chroniques et documents divers... By Société des sciences historiques
et naturelles de l'Yonne, Auxerre, Louis Maximilien Duru

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC1 ... 1-PA501,M1

Chuck Owens

Peter Stewart

Re: The Tosny Family of Belvoir

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 01 des 2006 22:59:02

"Chuck Owens" <cancertech7@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1164996194.824467.199660@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The reconstruction put forward by Katherine keats-Rohan is interesting.
It resolves the issue of "Estefania" de Barcelona & Godhilde and the
issue of Robert de Stafford & Robert of Belvoir as well. I'm going to
do more digging around to see what else I can find.

According to the following source, Roger "Hispanicus" de Tosny's father
was Rodulf. I'm not sure how reliable this source is.

Bibliothèque historique de l'Yonne; ou, Collection de légendes,
chroniques et documents divers... By Société des sciences historiques
et naturelles de l'Yonne, Auxerre, Louis Maximilien Duru

This is in the chronicle of Saint-Pierre-le-Vif, aka the chronicle of
Clarius, written at Sens early in the 12th century, i.e. around 70 years
after the death of Roger "Hispanicus". As to reliability in this matter,
note that Roger's father is called "Count Rodulf", a title that certainly
did not belong to either Ralph I or Ralph II of Tosny. It is also far from
certain that Roger's wife was named Stephania or that as his widow she later
married a "king of Spain" called Garcia, presumably Garcia V of Navarre, as
stated in this source.

Peter Stewart

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