Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of Sir E

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Louise Staley

Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of Sir E

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 21 nov 2006 05:28:01

What an interesting find posted by Douglas Richardson of a lawsuit
concerning the wife of the wife of Ralph Daubeney. The identifaication
of the mother of Sir Helié Daubeney as Iseult Sulney raises an
interesting question.

There is a Cornish family, named Sulney/Soligny with links to the
Willingtons of this period.

**HIGHLY SPECULATIVE GENEALOGY FOLLOWS**

1-Son Soligny
+
|--2-Emma Soligny
| +Jordan Champernoun d. Bef 1214
| |--3-William Champernoun b. Abt 1203, d. After 1230, s.p.m.
| +Eva Blancminster heiress
| |--4-Joan Champernoun heiress d. After 1286
| +Ralph Willington d. Between Apr 1255 and Jul 1260
| |--5-Ralph Willington b. Abt 1239, d. Bef 15 Oct 1294
| +Juliana Lumene Heiress d. After 1299
| |--6-Henry Willington d. 2 Oct 1323
|--2-Isolda Soligny d. Bef 1265
+Andrew Cardinham d. Abt 1253
|--3-Isolda Cardinham b. Abt 1235, d. Between 3 Nov 1276 and 24
| Jan 1277
+Thomas Tracy d. Between 1266 and 1268
+William Ferrers d. Between 1269 and 1270

As you can see my details are sketchy and sources not apparent in my
database, however I wonder if in fact Iseult Sulney fits into the
Soligny family where Isolda/Iseult is a known woman's name?

Similarly, from the lawsuit (Source:
http://www.sd-editions.com/AnaServer?PR ... tframe.anv)

1-Son Soligny
+
|--2-John Soligny
| +
| |--3-Joldewyn Soligny
| +
| |--4-Isolda Soligny
| +Ralph Daubeney b. Abt 1214, d. Bef 25 Jan 1292
| |--5-Philip Daubeney d. , s.p.
| |--5-Sir Helié Daubeney Baron Daubeney 1st b. Between 1261
| | and 1264, Guernsey, CHI, d. Bef 8 Apr 1305, (Guernsey,
| | CHI)
| |--5-Eleanor Daubeney
|--2-Ralph Soligny
+
|--3-Andrew Soligny d. Bef 7 Jan 1260, s.p.

The too neat solution would be to say Isolda Soligny married Andrew
Cardinham first, he died about 1253 then she married Ralph Daubeney and
had at least three sons and perhaps a daughter Eleanor before she died
before 1265 leaving Ralph free to marry Isabel unknown.

As I said this is speculation, I have nothing more in terms of sources
to add but it is interesting isn't it?

Louise

Douglas Richardson

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of S

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 21 nov 2006 08:22:10

Dear Louise ~

I believe the last male representative of the Soligny (or Sulney)
family of Cornwall was Geoffrey de Soligny, who died in 1265, leaving
unidentified sisters "some of whom were married in Cornwall and some in
Brittany." (Cal. IPM, 1: 629). In 1999 Ronny Bodine said "the sisters,
as per Cal. IPM, 4: no. 82 were Iseult de Sulenny (aka Isolda de
Soligny) and Emma de Sulenny (aka Emma de Soligny). This latter IPM
was actually concerned with the manor of Fawton [in St. Neot],
Cornwall, originally held by Andrew de Soligny and then Geoffrey de
Soligny, which manor evolved to the heirs of Geoffrey's sisters, as
both were dead."

As far as I know, until now no one has known of the 1295 lawsuit in
which Sir Elias d'Aubeney claimed rights to property at Fawton,
Cornwall as heir to his mother, Iseult de Soligny, wife of Sir Ralph
d'Aubeney, seigneur of Landal in Brittany. Without knowing further
particulars, I think it is safe to say that you might be correct that
Elias d'Aubeney's mother, Iseult de Sulney (or Soligny), could well be
the same person as Geoffrey de Soligny's known sister, Iseult de
Soligny, wife of Andrew de Cardinham.

This matter deserves further study.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of S

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 21 nov 2006 09:59:58

Dear Louise ~

Since replying to your post earlier this evening, I've had the
opportunity to study published abstracts of original documents which
pertain to the history of the Soligny (or Sulney) family of Brittany
and Cornwall. I find that the documents confirm the pedigree set forth
by Elias d'Aubeney as given in his lawsuit dated 1295.

Furthermore, it appears that Elias d'Aubeney's maternal grandmother was
Eleanor de Vitre, niece of the earlier and better known Eleanor de
Vitre, Countess of Salisbury in England. As such, it would seem that
Elias d'Aubeney possesses many new valid royal descents.

As best I can tell, the documents shed no light on whether or not Elias
d'Aubeney's mother, Iseult de Soligny, was the same person as Iseult de
Soligny, wife of Andrew de Cardinham. If the two women were the same
person, then the ancestry of Andrew de Cardinham's wife would
necessarily have to be altered.

When time permits, I'll post a synopsis of my research findings.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John P. Ravilious

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of S

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 21 nov 2006 12:36:57

Dear Louise, Douglas, et al.,

I believe that further investigation will find that Isolda de
Soligny left two daughters (by Andrew de Cardinham) as her coheirs:
Isolda, and Emma. The tenure of Fawton (or Faweton), Cornwall traces
to Sir Walter de Treverbyn, g grandson of Emma; the lands of Isolda
wound up through extraordinary circumstances in the hands of the
Dinhams. There appears to have been no male issue of Isolda de
Soligny.

It seems most likely there is a collateral line of this family
which will provide the answer. Given the name Isolda/Iseult, I would
wager there is a near kinswoman (possibly first cousin) who also was
given the name Isolda de Soligny.

Cheers,

John



Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Louise ~

I believe the last male representative of the Soligny (or Sulney)
family of Cornwall was Geoffrey de Soligny, who died in 1265, leaving
unidentified sisters "some of whom were married in Cornwall and some in
Brittany." (Cal. IPM, 1: 629). In 1999 Ronny Bodine said "the sisters,
as per Cal. IPM, 4: no. 82 were Iseult de Sulenny (aka Isolda de
Soligny) and Emma de Sulenny (aka Emma de Soligny). This latter IPM
was actually concerned with the manor of Fawton [in St. Neot],
Cornwall, originally held by Andrew de Soligny and then Geoffrey de
Soligny, which manor evolved to the heirs of Geoffrey's sisters, as
both were dead."

As far as I know, until now no one has known of the 1295 lawsuit in
which Sir Elias d'Aubeney claimed rights to property at Fawton,
Cornwall as heir to his mother, Iseult de Soligny, wife of Sir Ralph
d'Aubeney, seigneur of Landal in Brittany. Without knowing further
particulars, I think it is safe to say that you might be correct that
Elias d'Aubeney's mother, Iseult de Sulney (or Soligny), could well be
the same person as Geoffrey de Soligny's known sister, Iseult de
Soligny, wife of Andrew de Cardinham.

This matter deserves further study.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of S

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 22 nov 2006 16:47:31

Dear Louise, John, etc.

I've had the opportunity to examine further records which concern the
Soligny (or Sulney) family of Brittany and England. I have limited
time this morning and am not able to give a full report of my findings.
However, I can give an immediate answer to Louise's question about
whether or not Sir Elias d'Aubeney's mother, Iseult de Soligny, was the
same person as Iseult de Soligny, wife of Andrew de Cardinham.

As best I can tell, it appears that the women were separate and
distinct persons. I find that in 1280, Joan de Champernoun and Hugh de
Treverbin sued Aimery de Rochechouart [Vicomte of Rochechouart] and his
wife, Maud [de Ferrers], regarding a messuage and three carucates of
land in Kilmersdon, Somerset [Reference: Lionel Landon, ed.,
Somersetshire Pleas, 4 (Somerset Record Society 44) (1919): 305-306].
The plaintiffs claimed this property as "heirs" of Geoffrey de Soligny,
which Geoffrey evidently held the manor of Kilmersdon, Somerset prior
to his death in 1265. However, Joan and Hugh were not the only
claimants to Geoffrey de Soligny's estates. Another lawsuit in the
same year indicates that Geoffrey de Soligny had a daughter, Mary, wife
of Robert de Boyton, who also claimed rights to Kilmersdon [Reference:
Ibid., 359-362]. Sir Philip d'Aubeney [son of Iseult, daughter of
Gedouin, son of Jean, brother of Geoffrey] likewise claimed Kilmersdon
and he was awarded outright possession of the manor by the king in 1280
[Reference: Ibid., 359-362]. Philip d'Aubeney's exact connection to
Geoffrey de Soligny is not stated in these records.

As I understand the Soligny family tree, Joan de Champernoun and Hugh
de Treverbin respectively represented the interests of Geoffrey de
Soligny's two sisters, Emme and Iseult. Philip d'Aubigny was descended
from Geoffrey de Soligny's elder brother, Jean, seigneur of Dol in
Brittany, and so had the senior claim. The claims of Mary, wife of
Robert de Boyton, were evidently denied due to fraudulent actions on
the part of Robert de Boyton prior to Geoffrey de Soligny's death.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Louise Staley

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of S

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 22 nov 2006 21:58:01

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Louise, John, etc.

I've had the opportunity to examine further records which concern the
Soligny (or Sulney) family of Brittany and England. I have limited
time this morning and am not able to give a full report of my findings.
However, I can give an immediate answer to Louise's question about
whether or not Sir Elias d'Aubeney's mother, Iseult de Soligny, was the
same person as Iseult de Soligny, wife of Andrew de Cardinham.

As best I can tell, it appears that the women were separate and
distinct persons. I find that in 1280, Joan de Champernoun and Hugh de
Treverbin sued Aimery de Rochechouart [Vicomte of Rochechouart] and his
wife, Maud [de Ferrers], regarding a messuage and three carucates of
land in Kilmersdon, Somerset [Reference: Lionel Landon, ed.,
Somersetshire Pleas, 4 (Somerset Record Society 44) (1919): 305-306].
The plaintiffs claimed this property as "heirs" of Geoffrey de Soligny,
which Geoffrey evidently held the manor of Kilmersdon, Somerset prior
to his death in 1265. However, Joan and Hugh were not the only
claimants to Geoffrey de Soligny's estates. Another lawsuit in the
same year indicates that Geoffrey de Soligny had a daughter, Mary, wife
of Robert de Boyton, who also claimed rights to Kilmersdon [Reference:
Ibid., 359-362]. Sir Philip d'Aubeney [son of Iseult, daughter of
Gedouin, son of Jean, brother of Geoffrey] likewise claimed Kilmersdon
and he was awarded outright possession of the manor by the king in 1280
[Reference: Ibid., 359-362]. Philip d'Aubeney's exact connection to
Geoffrey de Soligny is not stated in these records.

As I understand the Soligny family tree, Joan de Champernoun and Hugh
de Treverbin respectively represented the interests of Geoffrey de
Soligny's two sisters, Emme and Iseult. Philip d'Aubigny was descended
from Geoffrey de Soligny's elder brother, Jean, seigneur of Dol in
Brittany, and so had the senior claim. The claims of Mary, wife of
Robert de Boyton, were evidently denied due to fraudulent actions on
the part of Robert de Boyton prior to Geoffrey de Soligny's death.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Thanks for digging this out Douglas, much appreciated. I did say I

thought making Isolda wife of both Andrew Cardingham and Ralph Daubeney
was too neat and so it has proved to be. However I still think we are
onto something with Isolda Soligny wife of Ralph and Isolda Soligny wife
of Andrew being closely related in some yet to be determined way.

cheers
Louise

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