Bertha Widow of Boso Count of Arles

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mike

Bertha Widow of Boso Count of Arles

Legg inn av mike » 20 nov 2006 21:40:42

Who was the first husband of Bertha of Arles niece of King Hugo of
Italy? She was the daughter of Boso of Arles (d.936) and Willa.
Luitprand of Cremona (Bk V, 32) says she was the widow of Boso Count of
Arles. She then married (c945) Raymond Prince of the Aquitanians, who
most (?) historians identify as Raymond I of Rouergue & Gothia (d.961)

Who was her first husband Boso?

I read about 3 possible candidates.

1) Boso of Vitry brother to King Ralph of France (d.935), but this man
was never mentioned anywhere the Midi, never count of Arles.

2) Boso son of Robald Count of Avignon and Arles (?) but this man lived
until c966. J.P Poly in his book on Provence (p35) says that Bertha was
not really a widow, but left Boso at request of her uncle, but as
Luitprand was no admirer of King Hugo, why would he cover this up?

3) Another Count Boso appears with Conrad the Pacific at Arles in 945.
G. Manteyer in his history of Provence (p153-54) suggests he might be
the same as an earlier Boso Count of Valence 912, who was the son
Adelelm Count of Valence who was related to Louis the Blind.

4) Finally, could _widow of Count Boso_ be an error by a copyist for
_daughter of_ etc, as her father was also Count of Arles before he
joined his brother in Italy.

Perhaps some scholars have solved this problem. Can anyone help?

thanks for reading

Mike

Peter Stewart

Re: Bertha Widow of Boso Count of Arles

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 nov 2006 05:04:34

"mike" <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1164055242.608408.35030@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Who was the first husband of Bertha of Arles niece of King Hugo of
Italy? She was the daughter of Boso of Arles (d.936) and Willa.
Luitprand of Cremona (Bk V, 32) says she was the widow of Boso Count of
Arles. She then married (c945) Raymond Prince of the Aquitanians, who
most (?) historians identify as Raymond I of Rouergue & Gothia (d.961)

Who was her first husband Boso?

I read about 3 possible candidates.

1) Boso of Vitry brother to King Ralph of France (d.935), but this man
was never mentioned anywhere the Midi, never count of Arles.

This is the right man, and he was count of Arles. His father-in-law, also
Boso, abandoned the coutships of Arles, Avignon and Vaisin to Berta and her
husband in 931 when he was given Tuscany.

NB calling him Boso "of Vitry" is not warranted - this was a minor
possession, held for him by a castellan, and it was not until centuries
later that Aubrey of Troisfontaines misidentified Boso as "count of Vitry".

2) Boso son of Robald Count of Avignon and Arles (?) but this man lived
until c966. J.P Poly in his book on Provence (p35) says that Bertha was
not really a widow, but left Boso at request of her uncle, but as
Luitprand was no admirer of King Hugo, why would he cover this up?

I would not recommend setting too much store by Jean-Pierre Poly on this
point, that obviously confused him - he first mentions Berta as having
married "Raimon de Rodez" shortly after 952, citing only Manteyer who stated
no such thing on any of the four pages referenced (or anywhere else for that
matter). Poly's attempt to make Berta into a first wife of another Boso who
became count of Arles later (ca 941) has led him to misdate her second
marraige to Raimon, that actually took place very soon after her real fisrt
husband Boso was killed in late September or October 935 - i.e. not after
the death of her rich uncle King Hugo (in April 947) as Liutprand suggests,
but beforehand.

Manteyer explains this first marriage cogently enough, on pp. 158-159. As
you have read a few pages earlier in the same work, I suggest you would do
well to continue with it. The reference in Liutprand Bk V is correctly
chapter 31, by the way, not 32.

Peter Stewart

mike

Re: Bertha Widow of Boso Count of Arles

Legg inn av mike » 22 nov 2006 19:42:39

Peter Stewart wrote:
"mike" <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1164055242.608408.35030@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Who was the first husband of Bertha of Arles niece of King Hugo of
Italy? She was the daughter of Boso of Arles (d.936) and Willa.
Luitprand of Cremona (Bk V, 32) says she was the widow of Boso Count of
Arles. She then married (c945) Raymond Prince of the Aquitanians, who
most (?) historians identify as Raymond I of Rouergue & Gothia (d.961)

Who was her first husband Boso?

I read about 3 possible candidates.

1) Boso of Vitry brother to King Ralph of France (d.935), but this man
was never mentioned anywhere the Midi, never count of Arles.

This is the right man, and he was count of Arles. His father-in-law, also
Boso, abandoned the coutships of Arles, Avignon and Vaisin to Berta and her
husband in 931 when he was given Tuscany.

NB calling him Boso "of Vitry" is not warranted - this was a minor
possession, held for him by a castellan, and it was not until centuries
later that Aubrey of Troisfontaines misidentified Boso as "count of Vitry".

2) Boso son of Robald Count of Avignon and Arles (?) but this man lived
until c966. J.P Poly in his book on Provence (p35) says that Bertha was
not really a widow, but left Boso at request of her uncle, but as
Luitprand was no admirer of King Hugo, why would he cover this up?

I would not recommend setting too much store by Jean-Pierre Poly on this
point, that obviously confused him - he first mentions Berta as having
married "Raimon de Rodez" shortly after 952, citing only Manteyer who stated
no such thing on any of the four pages referenced (or anywhere else for that
matter). Poly's attempt to make Berta into a first wife of another Boso who
became count of Arles later (ca 941) has led him to misdate her second
marraige to Raimon, that actually took place very soon after her real fisrt
husband Boso was killed in late September or October 935 - i.e. not after
the death of her rich uncle King Hugo (in April 947) as Liutprand suggests,
but beforehand.

Manteyer explains this first marriage cogently enough, on pp. 158-159. As
you have read a few pages earlier in the same work, I suggest you would do
well to continue with it. The reference in Liutprand Bk V is correctly
chapter 31, by the way, not 32.

Peter Stewart

Thanks for clearing this up. I havn't seen these books myself only read
the statements in other reference books and on the web.

So a correct entry for Bertha Countess of Arles 931-48:

Bertha m 1) c931 Boso Count of Arles, d. at the siege of St.Quentin
935, brother of King Ralph of France, m 2) c935 Raymond I of Rouergue
d.961

Mike

Peter Stewart

Re: Bertha Widow of Boso Count of Arles

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 23 nov 2006 01:27:02

"mike" <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1164220959.915342.286520@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Peter Stewart wrote:
"mike" <dmike204@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1164055242.608408.35030@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Who was the first husband of Bertha of Arles niece of King Hugo of
Italy? She was the daughter of Boso of Arles (d.936) and Willa.
Luitprand of Cremona (Bk V, 32) says she was the widow of Boso Count of
Arles. She then married (c945) Raymond Prince of the Aquitanians, who
most (?) historians identify as Raymond I of Rouergue & Gothia (d.961)

Who was her first husband Boso?

I read about 3 possible candidates.

1) Boso of Vitry brother to King Ralph of France (d.935), but this man
was never mentioned anywhere the Midi, never count of Arles.

This is the right man, and he was count of Arles. His father-in-law, also
Boso, abandoned the coutships of Arles, Avignon and Vaisin to Berta and
her
husband in 931 when he was given Tuscany.

NB calling him Boso "of Vitry" is not warranted - this was a minor
possession, held for him by a castellan, and it was not until centuries
later that Aubrey of Troisfontaines misidentified Boso as "count of
Vitry".

2) Boso son of Robald Count of Avignon and Arles (?) but this man lived
until c966. J.P Poly in his book on Provence (p35) says that Bertha was
not really a widow, but left Boso at request of her uncle, but as
Luitprand was no admirer of King Hugo, why would he cover this up?

I would not recommend setting too much store by Jean-Pierre Poly on this
point, that obviously confused him - he first mentions Berta as having
married "Raimon de Rodez" shortly after 952, citing only Manteyer who
stated
no such thing on any of the four pages referenced (or anywhere else for
that
matter). Poly's attempt to make Berta into a first wife of another Boso
who
became count of Arles later (ca 941) has led him to misdate her second
marraige to Raimon, that actually took place very soon after her real
fisrt
husband Boso was killed in late September or October 935 - i.e. not after
the death of her rich uncle King Hugo (in April 947) as Liutprand
suggests,
but beforehand.

Manteyer explains this first marriage cogently enough, on pp. 158-159. As
you have read a few pages earlier in the same work, I suggest you would
do
well to continue with it. The reference in Liutprand Bk V is correctly
chapter 31, by the way, not 32.

Peter Stewart

Thanks for clearing this up. I havn't seen these books myself only read
the statements in other reference books and on the web.

So a correct entry for Bertha Countess of Arles 931-48:

Bertha m 1) c931 Boso Count of Arles, d. at the siege of St.Quentin
935, brother of King Ralph of France, m 2) c935 Raymond I of Rouergue
d.961

Some caution with these dates is appropriate.

Poly appears to have worked from notes without going back to his sources to
check the chronology, and has consequently allowed himself to place Bertha's
marriages too late, leading in turn to misidentifying her first husband.
(This chronology is complicated by the immensely long life of Berta's
daughter-in-law Ricardis, who was ruling Rouergue on behalf of her
granddaughter, another Berta, in the 1050s.)

Berta was probably married to Boso ca 928, and at any rate before ca October
931 when her father left for Italy. The second marriage is often placed
shortly after the death of her uncle King Hugo in April 947, following
Liutprand. However, it is most unlikely that she would have remained a widow
for more than 10 years after Boso was killed in September or October 935.
The second marriage more probably took place a year or so later, at the end
of 936 or in 937.

Poly rather absurdly relied on Liutprand not calling Boso "quondam comes"
(the late count of Arles) when he wrote of Berta as his "vidua" (relict),
suggesting that this meant she was repudiated rather than widowed when she
married Raimond. Convinced of this, Poly somehow read into Manteyer an idea
that Berta had been unmarried in 936. He neglected to take into account that
she was clearly the eldest of her father's daughters, mentioned first by
Liutprand and favoured with inheriting the treasure of her uncle, and that
she was therefore not at all likely to have remained unmarried in 936 when
her younger sister Willa must have already given birth to at least one son.

Unfortunately ES has followed Poly in his conjecture, and this will probably
remain in circulation for some time.

Peter Stewart

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