Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens ofWorking

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Andrew and Inge

Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens ofWorking

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 18 nov 2006 11:20:42

Thank you Alex

My mail took a long time to hit the list and the meantime I have found some
more. William Fitz Duncan and one of the Maldreds (which one?) are both
claimed by various people to have had arms which influenced the "de
Lancaster" arms as well as those of some other northern families.

In any case there seems to be a connection between a complex of northerners
whose roots there were often pre-Norman, Northumbrian, although they had
become more closely associated with the kingdom of Scotland. Their influence
over families like the de Lancasters is interesting in its own right, but
might also help us decide how "Anglo Saxon" they were? (There is an on-going
debate about whether the de Lancasters really descend from the family of
Eldred of Workington, who were apparently Anglo Saxons.)

1. William I de Lancaster's brother Roger is said to have married the widow
of Waldeve/Waltheof of Allerdale, although I had him down as a son of
Siward?

2. Gunnilda of Dunbar, sister of Waldeve/Waltheof, married Roger and
William's supposed relative, Orme fitz Ketel, Lord of Seaton, a member of
the family of Eldred of Workington.

3. In 1139 William I de Lancaster is said to have been Castellan of Wiliam
Fitz Duncan's castle of Egremont. William's Fitz Duncan's mother was
apparently Uchtreda, daughter of Gospatric, son of Maldred, son of Crinan.

Best Regards
Andrew


=====
From: "Alex Maxwell Findlater" <maxwellfindlater@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens ofWorkington
&de Lancasters of Kendal
Date: 17 Nov 2006 02:54:51 -0800
References:
<BKEPIIDHHKEPCMDIEBKBCEKBDEAA.andrew.en.inge@skynet.be><mailman.746.11637334
19.32209.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>

3. Who was this Maldred that Dix and Tim are talking about? I seem to
remember him being named as a descendant of the Anglo-Saxon royalty? Is
his
name in any way connected to the surname Mauduit?


Maldred is a descendant of the Scottish kings, viz:

Malcolm II
|
Bethoc m Crinan Abbott of Dunkeld
|
King Duncan I and Maldred m Edith/Aldgitha d&h Uchtred Earl of
Northumberland

descendants of Maldred

Cospatrick earl of Northumberland m sister of King Edmund of England
(he had a brother Maldred of Winlaton, from whom the Staindrop family)
|
Dolfin earl or master of Dunbar
Cospatric earl of Dunbar
Walthoef of Allerdale
plus three or more daughters

see Pedigree and Progress by Anthony Wagner

taf

Re: Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens ofWor

Legg inn av taf » 19 nov 2006 02:37:55

Andrew and Inge wrote:
Thank you Alex

My mail took a long time to hit the list and the meantime I have found some
more. William Fitz Duncan and one of the Maldreds (which one?) are both
claimed by various people to have had arms which influenced the "de
Lancaster" arms as well as those of some other northern families.

I would be careful of this claim. These men date to a period just when
heraldry was emerging, and few had documented arms, in spite of
anachronistic claims to the contrary.

taf

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens ofWor

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 19 nov 2006 09:01:09

Andrew and Inge wrote:

Thank you Alex

My mail took a long time to hit the list and the meantime I have found some
more. William Fitz Duncan and one of the Maldreds (which one?) are both
claimed by various people to have had arms which influenced the "de
Lancaster" arms as well as those of some other northern families.



The Lancaster arms were as far as I remember Gules two lions passant Or
in pale. That is nothing like the arms which are generally derived
from Maldred, which are based on the paly of the earls of Atholl, if
indeed this isn't too a call too far, eg Washington etc. See Sir Iain
Moncrieffe of that Ilk, who wrote an article about double arms. You
should be able to find a copy of his Lord of the Dance, an heraldic
miscellany, ed Montgomery-Massingberd. I cannot remember where the
article was first published.

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens ofWor

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 19 nov 2006 10:41:36

In message of 19 Nov, "taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:

Andrew and Inge wrote:
Thank you Alex

My mail took a long time to hit the list and the meantime I have
found some more. William Fitz Duncan and one of the Maldreds (which
one?) are both claimed by various people to have had arms which
influenced the "de Lancaster" arms as well as those of some other
northern families.

I would be careful of this claim. These men date to a period just
when heraldry was emerging, and few had documented arms, in spite of
anachronistic claims to the contrary.

And even more misleading is the practice of the English College of Arms
to recognise arms created for people who lived significantly before the
start of heraldry in the first half of the twelfth century.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»