moyne moigne mowin?

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Andrew and Inge

moyne moigne mowin?

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 18 nov 2006 10:46:17

Dear List

In attempting to trace a 14th century John de Lancaster, husband of a Mabel,
I have had more luck tracing Mabel, but I have a concern that I might be
jumping to conclusions by equating the names Mowin and Moyne. Perhaps
someone can provide the missing pieces? For convenience I site everything
from one website, the excellent British History Online.

1. The manor of Thornton near Sefton in Lancashire saw a lot of Molyneux
activity, amongst which we find:-

Robert de Molyneux "died without issue, his heir being a nephew, Robert, son
of Simon de Molyneux, then a minor. In 1358 Richard de Molyneux of Sefton
had a contest with William le Boteler of Warrington as to the profits of the
wardship. In 1356 he had complained that Robert le Norreys of Melling, and
Joan his wife, with John de Lancaster and Mabel his wife, had abducted the
heir, who was by right his ward. Robert Molyneux's wife, Alice, is said to
have been a daughter of Robert le Norreys."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... =41295#n27

This is interesting because the Molyneux's were inter-married with one
branch of Lancasters, of origin unknown, in Rainhill. So who was this John
de Lancaster in Thornton? The one in Rainhill married a Marjory de Molyneux,
but it could be a son? Lancashire Record Office DDK/1406/5 of 43 Edward
III., A.D. 1369 mentions "John, son of John, son of John de Lancaster of
Rainhill".

The John de Lancaster who was of the most senior line of the Lancasters who
had once been the Barons of Kendal was married to an Annora, and he died in
1334, before her, in 1338. But it could for example be his nephew, John son
of Robert, who took over Howgill from him.

2. This John and Mabel appear in another record concerning the manor of Old
Hurst in Huntingdonshire:

The property of the Hurst family in Old Hurst "may perhaps be identified
with the manor in Oldhurst which John de Lancaster and Mabel his wife
demised to the Abbot of Ramsey in 1343."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=42479

3. This must be them again in Linch in Sussex, a record which now give Mabel
an ex-husband.

"between 1337 and 1340 John atte See of Denton, son of Joan, daughter of
Brian de Stopham, (fn. 20) claimed and recovered the manor against John de
Lancastre and Mabel his wife, widow of William le Moyne, and Adam Husee, to
whom William le Moyne had granted it."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... le%20moyne
%20mabel

4. Whatever their connection to Sussex, the above le Moyne family seems to
have indeed been associated with Old Hurst in Huntingdon:

"William Mowin who, with his wife Mabel, was dealing with the manor in 1328.
Shortly after this date the manor, it seems, was conveyed to trustees on
behalf of the Abbot of Ramsey. In this way it passed to Robert de Thorp,
whose son Robert in 1349 made a charge of £40 on the manor formerly of
William Mowin for the benefit of Philip de Brampton, chaplain, and Robert de
Kendale, clerk."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=42479 . Date accessed: 06
November 2006.

5. But can we equate Mowin, the spelling I find connecting to Old Hurst, and
Moyne, the spelling I find everywhere else (Holywell, Needingworth,etc) as
well as in connection to Mabel the wife of John de Lancastre?

"The manor of MOYNES, or the land which it afterwards comprised, was
apparently held in the 11th century by Edwin, who was perhaps the son of
Ailwin, the founder of Ramsey Abbey. In the early years of the 12th century,
Abbot Rainald (1114–30) gave the lands which had belonged to Edwin in
Raveley and lands at Gidding, Sawtry and Luddington to Hervey le Moine or
the Monk (Monachus). Hervey had his inn or house at Ramsey, probably as one
of the knights of the abbey, and also held lands at Upwood and Bradenach."
"William le Moyne, described as of Raveley, was dealing with property at
Raveley and elsewhere in Huntingdonshire, and appears as a party to charters
about 1340."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=42482

"The manor of OLD HURST was originally parcel of the manor of Slepe and was
granted with Slepe (q.v.) to Ramsey Abbey by King Edgar in 974. With
Woodhurst it probably became a separate manor in the 11th century but both
of them continued tithings of the soke of Slepe. The manor of Old Hurst may
perhaps be traced to Ingelran [de Auco], who with Everard and Pleines held 4
hides in Slepe of the abbot of Ramsey in 1086. (fn. 4) Ingelran's land seems
to have passed to Roger Fitz Mowin, who made an agreement with Abbot Reynald
(1114–30) regarding the old fee at Hurst which Ingelran had held, and a rent
in Fordham which Turkill his uncle had owned."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=42479

In the most extreme case it might even be that William le Moyne of Raveley
was the same as William Mowin of Old Hurst, but this would require some
explanation as it would seem odd that no-one mentions this. On the other
hand, for my purposes the main question is whether Mowin and Moyne could be
two spellings for one name.

The de Lancasters of Howgill and at least some of the le Moynes were
apparently of a similar rank, for example both held positions as sherriff.
Also the de Lancasters of Howgill had connections this far south, for
example they had held the manor of Barrington in Cambridge.

Regards
Andrew Lancaster

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