Sunday, 12 November, 2006
Hello All,
There have been several discussions in the past concerning the
origin of Mary, wife of Ralph de Tony (d. 1295), much of which have
revolved around the statement in Complete Peerage that her son
Robert was born at 'Thornby [sic], in Scotland' [1]. Due to this
statement, and the fact that Richard de Brus (younger son of Robert
de Brus, Lord of Annandale, 'the Competitor'] had been granted the
marriage and custody of the lands of Ralph de Tosny on 8 August
1265 [2], many (including myself) were led to believe that Mary was
most likely a daughter of Robert de Brus (d. 1304), Earl of
Carrick, and thereby a sister of Robert _the_ Bruce, King of Scots
(d. 1329).
The identification of 'Thornby' with Turnberry, co. Ayr. is
attractive, but there is evidence which points to another possible
filiation for Mary.
A. The agreement for the marriage of Robert de Tony and Maud
of Strathearn was between their parents, but the marriage
settlement was made (or completed) in London on 26 April
1293, "in the present of the noblemen, lords John Comyn
earl of Buchan, William de Ros lord of Hamelake, Robert
de Ros his brother, lord Andrew abbot of Coupar,..." [3].
The first three individuals named appear to have had a
significant interest in the proceeding: certainly, John
Comyn, Earl of Buchan was the maternal uncle of Matilda
[Earl Malise's 1st or 2nd wife and Matilda's mother was
Margaret Comyn, John's sister]. It seems both reasonable
and probable that one or both of the Ros brothers were
near relations of Robert de Tony.
B. The equation of 'Thornby' with Turnberry, co. Ayr in
Scotland is certainly possible, but another candidate
has been noted with connections to the Ros family.
Thornaby on Tees was a manor in Stainton parish, North
Riding (Yorkshire), and was identified in the cartulary
of Guisborough variously as Thormotby, Thormotheby,
Thormoteby, Turmodeby &c. Sir Robert de Ros (d. 1226),
the Magna Carta surety, had an interest in Thornaby
("Turmodeby" in the text) in 1213-4 and before,
evidently as the lord of Walter de Ver, based upon the
following suit of that year:
' In 14 John (1213-4) Sibilla, widow of Walter de Ver,
brought an action against Robert de Ros to recover her
dower in a third part of the vill of Bildesdale, both
in demesnes and in services, and in the third part of
a knight's fee, both in demesnes and in fees in
Turmodeby, Harwesum, Levingetorpe, Steinton, Gouton and
Leislingebi (Lazenby). Judgment respited in consequence
of Robert de Ros being in the King's service. She
brought a similar action about six bovates and six tofts
in Sprottele against Saher de Sutton, who called Simon,
son and heir of Walter de Ver to warranty (Coram Rege
Joh. No. 47, mm. 11, 21). ' [4]
Thornaby was part of the Brus fee. There is record of a final
concord in the King's court at Westminster, 20 Jan 1275/6 'between
Radulf, prior of Guisborough, querent. and William de Boyville, and
Marmaduke de Twenge, and Lucy his wife, deforciants, of the manor
of Thormodeby with appurtenances' [5]. Thornaby was evidently held
by de Boyville of Lucy de Brus and her husband, as part of her
share of the Brus inheritance; it is subsequently noted in Kirkby's
Inquest (1284-5) as being held 'of the heirs of Piers de Brus,
and by the heirs of the said Piers of the king [in chief]' [6].
I would suggest that Thornby, the birthplace of Robert de Tony,
was actually Thornaby, co. Yorks., and that his mother Mary was an
otherwise unknown sister of Sir William de Ros of Helmsley and of
Robert de Ros of Gedney. They would then have been the uncles of
the young Robert de Tony, witnessing the marriage settlement of
1293 on his behalf just as John Comyn of Buchan was acting for his
niece, Maud of Strathearn. Sir William de Ros has a currently
'assigned' sister Mary, 3rd wife of Sir William de Breuse
(d. 1290). There is no basis given in the account in Complete
Peerage for this filiation, other than the maritagium in
Wiverthorpe [als Werthorpe], co. Yorks. that Mary de Ros brought
to her marriage [7]. There is no evidence of Werthorp, or
Wiverthorpe, being held by (or of) Sir Robert de Ros of Helmsley
(d. 1285) at his death [8]. I would therefore suggest that Mary,
wife of Sir William de Breuse, was actually the daughter of Sir
Piers de Ros, 2nd son of Sir Robert (the Magna Carta surety), and
that Sir Piers had received his mother's lands in Wiverthorpe as
his inheritance, passing same to his daughter Mary. This would
also explain the appearance of the name Piers in the de Breuse
family, commencing with Mary's son Piers de Breuse, of Tetbury,
co. Gloucs.
Following is the altered pedigree of Ros based on these
conjectures. In addition to the relationships as suggested above,
this also displays the marriages (consummated and not) between
the de Ros family and that of de Tibetot. Agnes, daughter of
Sir William de Ros of Helmsley, married Payn de Tibetot in 1296
or later; Payn's brother Robert was affianced to a sister of Sir
Robert de Tony ca. 1295, but the marriage is not known to have been
consummated [9]. The filiations suggested would have Robert's
intended wife as a niece of Sir William de Ros of Helmsley.
Sir Robert de Ros = Isabel of Scotland Sir Piers fitz Herbert
MC Surety I of Blaen Llyfni,
___________I Wiverthorpe & c.
I ________________________I
I I
Sir William = Lucy 'filia Piers
of Helmsley I [had lands in Wiverthorp [als.
d. ca 1264 I Werthorp, Weaverthorpe] in maritagium
d. ca 1264 I
____________I______________________________________
I I I I I
Sir Robert = Isabel Sir Piers <siblings>
d. 1285 I d'Aubigny de Ros (2nd son)
I ? of Werthorp, co. Yorks.?
I :
_______I_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ :............
I I I :
SIR WILLIAM ROBERT Mary = RALPH de Mary = William
de Ros de Ros I Tony I de Breuse
of Helmsley of Gedney I d. 1295 I d. 1290
d. ca. 1316 I V
I I______________
___I________ ____________ ________I____________
I I I I I I I I
<sibs> Agnes = Payn de Robert * NN ROBERT Alice
I Tibetot <affianced 1295> de Tony = 2) Guy de
I k. 1314 = Maud of Beauchamp
I Strathearn E of
V Warwick
I would like to note that Rosie Bevan had previously identified
other sites in England which were possible candidates for the
location of 'Thornby'. Also, Doug Richardson had noted the
possibility of a connection of the Ros (or Roos) family. Should
this conjecture be proven in fact, credit is due to both Rosie and
Doug, as well as my thanks.
Any further relevant documentation, as well as comment or
criticism, is welcome as always.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] CP XII/I:773, sub _Tony_.
[2] Ibid., note (b), citing CPR and CCR.
[3] Joseph Stevenson, ed., Documents Illustrative of the History
of Scotland (Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register
House), I:394. This text is current online, courtesy of
Googlebooks:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... ISO-8859-1
[4] Cartularium Prioratus de Gyseburne, Surtees Soc. (1894)
LXXXIX:425. This can be viewed via Googlebooks:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... ISO-8859-1
[5] Ibid., p. 35.
[6] Kirkby's Inquest, p. 105: " de Haer' Petri de Brus, et
haer' praedicti Petri de rege [in capite]." See also,
pp. 124-5, 127, 131-2. Interestingly,
Sir William de Percy of Kildale held lands in Thormanby
in 1284-5 [ibid., p. 127]; his son and heir, Arnold de
Percy, was one of the procurators of Malise, Earl of
Strathearn in the 1293 marriage settlement with Ralph de
Tony [Stevenson, ibid., I:394].
[7] CP II:302, sub Breuse, Brewes &c., note (i).
[8] Yorkshire Inqusitions, II:32-35.
[9] Yorkshire Inqusitions, III:84-85, note(c).
* John P. Ravilious
Mary de Ros, wife of Ralph de Tony (d. 1295): a conjecture
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Mary (de Brus?), wife of Ralph de Tony (d. 1295): a conj
John P. Ravilious wrote:
< There have been several discussions in the past concerning the
< origin of Mary, wife of Ralph de Tony (d. 1295), much of which have
< revolved around the statement in Complete Peerage that her son
< Robert was born at 'Thornby [sic], in Scotland' [1].
Dear John ~
Complete Peerage cites an inquistion which clearly states that Robert
de Tony was born at Thornby in Scotland. As such, Thornby would
unlikely be the same place as Turmodeby in England as you have alleged.
Surely the jurors knew the difference between Scotland and England,
even in their day!
Elsewhere, I've found that Thornby is listed in at least one gazeteer
as being located in Cumbria. As such, I believe Thornby in Cumbria is
most likely the right place of Robert de Tony's birth.
Is Thornby the same place as Turnberry held by the Brus family? I'm
unable to answer that question, but I do know that Turnberry lies in
what was Cumbria. Likewise, I believe Turnberry is the only castle in
Scotland in this time period which sounds anything near phonetically to
a place called Thornby. Also, we know for a fact that the marriage of
Robert de Tony's father was held by Richard de Brus, a younger son of
the baronial Brus family.
On the other hand, Turmodeby (or Thormodeby) in Yorkshire, while
similarly phonetically to Thornby, was not in Scotland.
This matter deserves further study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
< There have been several discussions in the past concerning the
< origin of Mary, wife of Ralph de Tony (d. 1295), much of which have
< revolved around the statement in Complete Peerage that her son
< Robert was born at 'Thornby [sic], in Scotland' [1].
Dear John ~
Complete Peerage cites an inquistion which clearly states that Robert
de Tony was born at Thornby in Scotland. As such, Thornby would
unlikely be the same place as Turmodeby in England as you have alleged.
Surely the jurors knew the difference between Scotland and England,
even in their day!
Elsewhere, I've found that Thornby is listed in at least one gazeteer
as being located in Cumbria. As such, I believe Thornby in Cumbria is
most likely the right place of Robert de Tony's birth.
Is Thornby the same place as Turnberry held by the Brus family? I'm
unable to answer that question, but I do know that Turnberry lies in
what was Cumbria. Likewise, I believe Turnberry is the only castle in
Scotland in this time period which sounds anything near phonetically to
a place called Thornby. Also, we know for a fact that the marriage of
Robert de Tony's father was held by Richard de Brus, a younger son of
the baronial Brus family.
On the other hand, Turmodeby (or Thormodeby) in Yorkshire, while
similarly phonetically to Thornby, was not in Scotland.
This matter deserves further study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Gjest
Re: Mary (de Brus?), wife of Ralph de Tony (d. 1295): a conj
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
Dear Douglas
Isn't there a problem, in that Thornby (near Wigton in Cumbria) also
suffers from a similar disability, ie not being in Scotland?
Regards, Michael
John P. Ravilious wrote:
There have been several discussions in the past concerning the
origin of Mary, wife of Ralph de Tony (d. 1295), much of which have
revolved around the statement in Complete Peerage that her son
Robert was born at 'Thornby [sic], in Scotland' [1].
Dear John ~
Complete Peerage cites an inquistion which clearly states that Robert
de Tony was born at Thornby in Scotland. As such, Thornby would
unlikely be the same place as Turmodeby in England as you have alleged.
Surely the jurors knew the difference between Scotland and England,
even in their day!
Elsewhere, I've found that Thornby is listed in at least one gazeteer
as being located in Cumbria. As such, I believe Thornby in Cumbria is
most likely the right place of Robert de Tony's birth.
Dear Douglas
Isn't there a problem, in that Thornby (near Wigton in Cumbria) also
suffers from a similar disability, ie not being in Scotland?
Regards, Michael
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Mary (de Brus?), wife of Ralph de Tony (d. 1295): a conj
Dear Doug,
Comments and/or observations interspersed.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
<<<<<<<<<<<<
I'd be most interested in seeing the actual text of the
inquisition (IPM or otherwise). If the actual text makes it clear that
'Thornby' was in Scotland, that's important; at the same time, we've
seen a few errors creep into inquisitions.
Thornby in Cumbria is near Scotland. Near Wigton and some 10 km.
or so SW of Carlisle, it's in Cumbria, but the direct association of
Cumbria with Scotland ended with the reign of Henry II of England.
Surely no English juror in 13th century England would have called
Cumberland part of England .......
Thornaby (near Stockton on Tees) is some 115 km or so from the
closest point on the modern Scots border.
Also, we know for a fact that the marriage of
True enough, the grant of the marriage (i.e., the right to
contract for the marriage of Ralph de Tony) was given to Richard de
Brus. That does not tell us whom Ralph de Tony was married to. These
rights were marketable: in many cases the holder of these rights would
have his own issue married to the individual in question, but as
frequently (likely more so) an arrangement was made for marriage to the
available child of an associate, or to someone with enough cash or
other assets to make a 'deal'.
Now, consider this. Richard de Brus had major land holdings at
Wigglesworth, Yorks. - some 80 km SW of Thornaby, Yorks., but 210 km.
SE of Turnberry. ( Richard also held lands in Horsfrith (or Osterly)
adjoining Writtle, Essex, his father's manor - no need to discuss
distances to Turnberry from there...). The distance from Wigglesworth
to Helmsley, the main Ros manor, is approx. 80 km; and interestingly,
Helmsley is approx. 20 km. south of Thornaby.
Aside from geographical proximity, the Brus and Ros families
surely knew each other well. Sir William de Ros of Helmsley (living in
1293) was a 3rd cousin 1x removed of Sir Richard de Brus, by common
descent from Henry, earl of Northumberland (d. 1152), so Sir William's
father Sir Robert de Ros (ld. 1285) was Sir Richard's 3rd cousin.
We know Sir Richard de Brus had no issue. We also know that Sir
Robert de Ros had many children, including daughters, by his wife
Isabel de Aubigny.
The foregoing doesn't prove the match suggested, obviously.
Hence, the interest in getting the actual details (not the reference
language in CP) to help make a determination, if possible.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Indeed, it does.
Cheers,
John
Comments and/or observations interspersed.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
John P. Ravilious wrote:
There have been several discussions in the past concerning the
origin of Mary, wife of Ralph de Tony (d. 1295), much of which have
revolved around the statement in Complete Peerage that her son
Robert was born at 'Thornby [sic], in Scotland' [1].
Dear John ~
Complete Peerage cites an inquistion which clearly states that Robert
de Tony was born at Thornby in Scotland. As such, Thornby would
unlikely be the same place as Turmodeby in England as you have alleged.
Surely the jurors knew the difference between Scotland and England,
even in their day!
<<<<<<<<<<<<
I'd be most interested in seeing the actual text of the
inquisition (IPM or otherwise). If the actual text makes it clear that
'Thornby' was in Scotland, that's important; at the same time, we've
seen a few errors creep into inquisitions.
Elsewhere, I've found that Thornby is listed in at least one gazeteer
as being located in Cumbria. As such, I believe Thornby in Cumbria is
most likely the right place of Robert de Tony's birth.
Is Thornby the same place as Turnberry held by the Brus family? I'm
unable to answer that question, but I do know that Turnberry lies in
what was Cumbria. Likewise, I believe Turnberry is the only castle in
Scotland in this time period which sounds anything near phonetically to
a place called Thornby.
Thornby in Cumbria is near Scotland. Near Wigton and some 10 km.
or so SW of Carlisle, it's in Cumbria, but the direct association of
Cumbria with Scotland ended with the reign of Henry II of England.
Surely no English juror in 13th century England would have called
Cumberland part of England .......
Thornaby (near Stockton on Tees) is some 115 km or so from the
closest point on the modern Scots border.
Also, we know for a fact that the marriage of
Robert de Tony's father was held by Richard de Brus, a younger son of
the baronial Brus family.
True enough, the grant of the marriage (i.e., the right to
contract for the marriage of Ralph de Tony) was given to Richard de
Brus. That does not tell us whom Ralph de Tony was married to. These
rights were marketable: in many cases the holder of these rights would
have his own issue married to the individual in question, but as
frequently (likely more so) an arrangement was made for marriage to the
available child of an associate, or to someone with enough cash or
other assets to make a 'deal'.
Now, consider this. Richard de Brus had major land holdings at
Wigglesworth, Yorks. - some 80 km SW of Thornaby, Yorks., but 210 km.
SE of Turnberry. ( Richard also held lands in Horsfrith (or Osterly)
adjoining Writtle, Essex, his father's manor - no need to discuss
distances to Turnberry from there...). The distance from Wigglesworth
to Helmsley, the main Ros manor, is approx. 80 km; and interestingly,
Helmsley is approx. 20 km. south of Thornaby.
Aside from geographical proximity, the Brus and Ros families
surely knew each other well. Sir William de Ros of Helmsley (living in
1293) was a 3rd cousin 1x removed of Sir Richard de Brus, by common
descent from Henry, earl of Northumberland (d. 1152), so Sir William's
father Sir Robert de Ros (ld. 1285) was Sir Richard's 3rd cousin.
We know Sir Richard de Brus had no issue. We also know that Sir
Robert de Ros had many children, including daughters, by his wife
Isabel de Aubigny.
The foregoing doesn't prove the match suggested, obviously.
Hence, the interest in getting the actual details (not the reference
language in CP) to help make a determination, if possible.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
On the other hand, Turmodeby (or Thormodeby) in Yorkshire, while
similarly phonetically to Thornby, was not in Scotland.
This matter deserves further study.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Indeed, it does.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Cheers,
John