English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunton-Do

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John Brandon

English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunton-Do

Legg inn av John Brandon » 10 nov 2006 22:29:11

In May 2004, I made this posting:

I believe Doug's new book (RPA) states that William1 Pole or Poole of
Taunton, Mass., married Jane, sister of John Greene of Milton,
Somerset.

I wonder if she wouldn't be the Jane Greene, dau. of John and Sicile
(Walrond) Greene of Milton, who was aged 7 in the 1623 Somerset
Visitation. See

http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/ ... s/p48.html

This lady would have been much younger than her husband, William Poole,
but the birth years of their children (1639-60) would seem to require
this. See

http://otal.umd.edu/~walt/gen/htmfile/5310.htm

William and Jane (Greene) Poole are ancestors #1820 and 1821 in the
ancestor table of John Kerry. See

http://www.wargs.com/political/kerry.html

********

Reitwiesner's ancestor table has #1821 as Mary ----, apparently
following the name given in Gary Boyd Roberts' _Royal Descents of 600
Immigrants_. Doug's book, however, lists her as Jane Greene, sister of
John Greene of Milton, Somersetshire, and this is clear from and entry
concerning the Pooles found in Aspinwall's notebook, I believe:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN0 ... ton&pgis=1
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... ton&pgis=1

Also note that Mrs. Katherine Northcote made mention in her 1685 will
of "my dear kinswoman, Mrs. Jane Poole in Boston in New England."

http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN0 ... ote&pgis=1

The 1677 will of Rev. Theophilus Gale, moreover, had mentioned his
"sister Mrs. Katherine Northcott" ...

http://books.google.com/books?vid=0Etaf ... h+annesley

and I was also aware that William and Jane Poole/ Pole had a son
Theophilus born at Dorchester in New England:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=00ZRm ... hilus+pole

(The library of Rev. Gale eventually made its way to Harvard College
[see note at the end of his will]).

It all fits together quite nicely when we learn that Theophilus Gale
was born in 1628 at King's Teignton, Devonshire, son of an earlier
Theophilus Gale:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=0Ccll ... hilus+gale

I can't do any searches currently on the LDS website due to "website
maintenance," but I checked earlier, and at some location in Devonshire
we find extracted records for:

1602 Marriage of John Greene and --- Walrond [remember the Visitation
pedigree showed John Greene of Milton, Somerset, married to Cecily
Walrond]

1622 Marriage of Theophilus Gale to Bridget Walrond

At a separate location in Devonshire, we find an extracted record for
the 1647 marriage of Katherine Gale to Henry Northcott.

I think these facts together almost certainly prove the ancestry of
Mrs. Jane Poole of New England.

John Brandon

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunto

Legg inn av John Brandon » 10 nov 2006 23:17:17

It also looks like Jane Poole was a cousin of some degree of William
Goddard of New England (he was the son of Edward and Priscilla (Doyley)
Goddard in this Google Books link) ...

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC1 ... nd+goddard

John Brandon

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunto

Legg inn av John Brandon » 10 nov 2006 23:21:33

It also looks like Jane Poole was a cousin of some degree of William
Goddard of New England (he was the son of Edward and Priscilla (Doyley)
Goddard in this Google Books link) ...

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC1 ... rd+walrond

[Remember that Rev. Theo. Gale's will mentioned his Goddard cousins ...

http://books.google.com/books?vid=0Etaf ... h+annesley
]

John Brandon

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunto

Legg inn av John Brandon » 11 nov 2006 00:12:41

Crediton, Devon

--CATHERYNE GALE to WALTER NORTHCOT, 20 April 1649

John Brandon

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunto

Legg inn av John Brandon » 11 nov 2006 00:18:59

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... +northcote

Some of the Northcotes were kin of the New England Mavericks (via
Dowrish).

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunto

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 11 nov 2006 04:39:16

In article <1163194151.850336.12310@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:


<...>

I think these facts together almost certainly prove the ancestry of
Mrs. Jane Poole of New England.

Agreed; and her armigerous status too (named as a child in the
visitation record signed by her own father). Wherever the ancestry may
lead (or not), she's a ripe candidate for inclusion in the NEHGS 'Roll
of Arms' of armigerous immigrants. Her husband made it into the roll
long ago (he is no. 57) but more recently-identified seventeenth-century
women are being added now (e.g. Anne Derehaugh Stratton of Salem). I've
compiled a surname index to the existing published roll and am working
on an on-line index with basic identifying details. Once this is
available online (maybe sometime next spring) it would be nice to go
back over some of what has been posted here on seventeenth-century
American immigrants (especially your posts, John) and see who can be
added to the roll. It would be interesting if the roll could turn into
an authoritative list of known armigerous folk who made it to New
England or to Virginia before (say) the Revolution. Most of them will
still not have traceable medieval ancestries, but they would form an
interesting prosopographical cadre. I expect that most of the 200-odd
early American immigrants with known medieval ancestry are also known
armigers or had an armigerous mother or grandmother. I wonder just how
much the two groups (armigers & those with known medieval descents) will
overlap.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Douglas Richardson

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunto

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 11 nov 2006 10:58:09

Dear John ~

I found your four posts today regarding the parentage and ancestry of
Jane (Greene) Pole to be most interesting indeed. You've produced
several valuable pieces of evidence, among them the marriage record of
Jane's parents, John Greene and ____ Walrond, in 1602 at Seaton and
Beer, Devon [Reference: IGI].

Because I found your posts so compelling, I decided check a pedigree of
the Walrond family of Bovey (in Seaton and Beer), Devon prepared by
A.J.P. Skinner in 1907. This pedigree was originally published in
Transactions of the Devonshire Association for the Advancement of
Science, Literature, and Art, volume 39 (1907), pp. 264-266. The
pedigree reveals that Jane (Greene) Pole's maternal grandparents were
John Walrond (buried 1611 at Seaton) and his wife, Jane Hatch (buried
1640 at Seaton). This couple had a large family of children, including
Edmund Walrond, baptized at Seaton and Beer, Devon in 1592, whose wife,
Ann Pole, was the sister of William Pole, husband of Jane Greene.
Edmund Walrond also had a sister, Bridget, baptized at Seaton and Beer
in 1593, who married Rev. Theophilus Gale, which couple were the
parents of Rev. Theophilus Gale, died 1678, and, as you noted,
Katherine Gale, wife of Walter Northcott. Thus, it appears Jane
(Greene) Pole was a first cousin to Katherine (Gale) Northcott, whose
1685 will names Jane (Greene) Pole as her "dear kinswoman" [Reference:
NEHGR, 48:4].

Unfortunately Mr. Skinner's chart does not include a daughter for John
and Jane (Hatch) Walrond named Cecily Walrond. However, there can be
no doubt that Cecily Walrond, the mother of Jane (Greene) Pole, was the
daughter of John Walrond and his wife, Jane Hatch. As noted above,
Cecily Walrond and her husband, John Greene, were married in the parish
of Seaton and Beer, Devon, where John and Jane Walrond resided.
Furthermore, the 1623 Visitation of Somerset (which you cited) names
Cecily (Walrond) Greene'e father as John Walrond of Bovey, co. Devon.
Bovey is situated in the parish of Seaton and Beer.

For further good news, Mr. Skinner shows that the parents of Jane
(Hatch) Walrond were Lewis Hatch, of Aller, Devon, died 1561, and his
wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Bartholomew Fortescue, of Filleigh, Devon.
The Fortescue connection provides Jane (Greene) Pole with a valid
royal ancestry by way of the Fortescue, Beauchamp, Mohun, Fitz Peter,
and Clare families. When I have time later this week, I'll post the
specifics of Jane (Greene) Pole's royal ancestry.

I should menrtion that I also came across an online reference which
indicates that John Greene and Cecily Walrond had a daughter, Sara
Greene, who married John Hill, of Dorchester, Dorset [Reference: Dorset
Visitations 1623, pp. 3, 55]. The weblink for this reference is given
below.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prai ... mpany.html

The above website is based on research done by the late Judith Osborne,
a close personal friend of mine, and Martha Strong.

One last thing: I say three cheers for John Brandon! Hip! Hip!
Hurrah!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John Higgins

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) ofTaunton

Legg inn av John Higgins » 11 nov 2006 19:51:57

The royal descent mentioned below for the Fortescues was most recently
published in GBR's RD600 (p. 548), which outlines a descent from Hugh Capet
through the families mentioned which applies to virtually all the
Fortescues.

According to GBR's norms, this is the "best" royal descent for [most of?]
the Fortescues (i.e., from the most recent monarch). However it appears
that Elizabeth Fortescue, wife of Lewis Hatch, may have a better (more
recent) royal descent (from Henry II), via her mother Ellen, dau. of Maurice
Moore of Moore Hayes. According to visitation pedigrees, Ellen's mother was
Cecily Bonville, dau. [by Alice Dennis] of John Bonville, an illegitmate son
of William, 1st Lord Bonville by Isabella Kirkeby [or Kirkby]. John
Bonville and his father appear in RD600, p. 445. If the parentage of John
Bonville is accepted, this more recent descent appears to be valid.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 1:58 AM
Subject: Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene)
ofTaunton-Dorchester-Boston

[big snip]

For further good news, Mr. Skinner shows that the parents of Jane
(Hatch) Walrond were Lewis Hatch, of Aller, Devon, died 1561, and his
wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Bartholomew Fortescue, of Filleigh, Devon.
The Fortescue connection provides Jane (Greene) Pole with a valid
royal ancestry by way of the Fortescue, Beauchamp, Mohun, Fitz Peter,
and Clare families. When I have time later this week, I'll post the
specifics of Jane (Greene) Pole's royal ancestry.


[snip]

John Brandon

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunto

Legg inn av John Brandon » 11 nov 2006 20:17:58

Thanks to all who helped out on this, especially Douglas for checking
Skinner's Walrond pedigree. I'll look forward to seeing the royal line
you put together, Doug.

The connection to the Dorchester Company of the Walrond-Greene-Hills is
important, since that was an early association with a strong interest
in colonizing New England.

Douglas Richardson

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunto

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 11 nov 2006 20:35:00

Dear Newsgroup ~

Good news. The extended ancestry of Jane (Greene) Pole's
great-grandmother, Elizabeth (Fortescue) Hatch, can be found at the
weblink below. The ancestral table commences with Elizabeth's sister,
Gertrude Fortescue, wife of Barnard Drake, of Ash, Devon.

http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... &id=I27358

The best royal descent shown in this database is through William
Longespee, Earl of Salisbury, the illegitimate son of King Henry II of
England. This descent is by way of the Fortescue, Moore, Bonville,
Fitz Roger, and Zouche families.

I noticed one source cited in the database which may prove helpful:

Genealogical Memoranda of the Family of De La Moor or Moore of
Moorehayes, by Rev Cecil Moore, MA, 1884.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John Higgins

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) ofTaunton

Legg inn av John Higgins » 12 nov 2006 00:23:58

There may possibly be another royal descent to be teased out here. In John
Brandon's original post in this thread, he mentioned that the 1623
visitation of Somerset shows Jane Greene (presumably the one who mar. Capt.
William Pole or Poole) as the daughter of John Greene of Milton and Cecily,
dau. of Walrond of Bovery. Two generations earlier in the same pedigree,
John Greene's grandfather Matthew Greene is shown as marrying Catherine,
dau. of "Hugh Fortescue of Filley, Devon". I can't quickly locate this
daughter and father in Fortescue pedigrees, but if it's accurate it would
mean that Jane had two Fortescue great-grandmothers. Setting aside the
issues of possible consanguinity, this could mean an additional royal
descent for Jane....definitely from Hugh Capet as in RD600 and possibly from
Henry II.

OTOH, the visitation pedigree could be wrong....

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene)
ofTaunton-Dorchester-Boston


Dear Newsgroup ~

Good news. The extended ancestry of Jane (Greene) Pole's
great-grandmother, Elizabeth (Fortescue) Hatch, can be found at the
weblink below. The ancestral table commences with Elizabeth's sister,
Gertrude Fortescue, wife of Barnard Drake, of Ash, Devon.

http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... &id=I27358

The best royal descent shown in this database is through William
Longespee, Earl of Salisbury, the illegitimate son of King Henry II of
England. This descent is by way of the Fortescue, Moore, Bonville,
Fitz Roger, and Zouche families.

I noticed one source cited in the database which may prove helpful:

Genealogical Memoranda of the Family of De La Moor or Moore of
Moorehayes, by Rev Cecil Moore, MA, 1884.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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Douglas Richardson

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) ofTaunton

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 12 nov 2006 01:01:11

Actually there are several other royal descents which can be developed
in the ancestry of Jane (Greene) Pole. Here are a couple.

If the Moore-Bonville connection is sound, then I believe Jane (Greene)
Pole descends via Bonville, Dennis, and Chalons families from Joan
Beauchamp, wife of Robert Chalons. Joan (Beauchamp) Chalons was the
sister of Elizabeth Beauchamp, wife of William Fortescue, which
Elizabeth is already found in Jane (Greene) Pole's ancestry. Joan
(Beauchamp) Chalon's descendants would share the same royal ancestry as
her sister, Elizabeth (Beauchamp) Fortescue.

I suspect another of Jane Greene's ancestors, Walter Gastelin, descends
from Eleanor de Vitre, Countess of Salisbury, the mother-in-law of
William Longespee.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John Brandon

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunto

Legg inn av John Brandon » 12 nov 2006 01:34:35

It would actually be nice to have a careful study of Jane's descendants
(in the NEHGR or TAG?) -- while not numerous, there certainly are some
(such as Mr. Kerry, etc.) ...

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... le%22+jane

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... le%22+jane


As late as 1762 there was the baptism of a child named "Bethesda Filer"
....

http://books.google.com/books?vid=0AP7d ... ler&pgis=1

Douglas Richardson

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunto

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 12 nov 2006 03:00:05

Dear John ~

When you have a moment, can you post details of the 1685 will of
Katherine (Gale) Northcott? An abstract of this will is supposed to be
in NEHGR, 48:4.

Thanks!

DR

John Brandon

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunto

Legg inn av John Brandon » 12 nov 2006 17:00:30

Doug,

Yes, I believe it is abstracted someplace in the NEHGR (I remember
seeing it at some point), but my current subscription to Hist.-Gen.
doesn't include the ability to search the _Register_, unfortunately.

John



On Nov 11, 9:00 pm, "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com>
wrote:
Dear John ~

When you have a moment, can you post details of the 1685 will of
Katherine (Gale) Northcott? An abstract of this will is supposed to be
in NEHGR, 48:4.

Thanks!

DR

Douglas Richardson

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunto

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 13 nov 2006 00:34:08

Dear John ~

Barbara Dundas of Australia kindly forwarded me a copy of the abstract
of the PCC will of Katherine Northcote, widow, of Hoxton, Middlesex,
which abstract was published in New England Hist. Gen. Register, 48
(1894): 495-496. Katherine Northcote's will is dated 11 March 1683,
proved 27 August 1685 (PCC, 112 Cann).

The following kinsfolk are named in the will:

1. My niece Pointingdon, relict of Thomas Pointingdon Esq. deceased.

2. My kinswoman Mrs. Eleanor Smith.

3. My kinsman Edmond Waldrond of Bovey in Seaton Esq. and his wife.

4. My kinsman Elias Bartlet of Branscombe parish, senior, and his wife.

5. My kinswoman Mrs. Jane Poole in Boston in New England [and] her son
Theophilus.

6. Dorothy the daughter of my nephew Mr. Lewis Northcote.

The testatrix also referred to the following members of the Row family,
which family was evidently also related to the testatrix:

1. Mr. Thomas Row and John Row his half brother and Sarah Row his half
sister.

2. Mrs. Mary Row late wife of Mr. John Row deceased in Gray's Inn Lane
near the Almeshouses, London.

Mrs. Eleanor Smith, one of the kinsfolk of Katherine Northcote above,
can be identified as Ellen Huchinson, wife of _____ Smith, who was
baptized at Colyton, Devon 27 May 1632. Ellen Huchinson was the
daughter of Katherine Northcote's aunt, Anne Walrond, wife successively
of Ralph Huchinson, vicar of Colyton, Devon, and Thomas Sampson
[Reference: Walrond pedigree by A.J.P. Skinner].

Another of the kinsfolk, Edmond Walrond, of Bovey (in Seaton and Beer,
Devon), can be identified as Katherine Northcote's first cousin, he
being the son of her uncle, Edmond Walrond, also of Bovey [Reference:
Walrond pedigree by A.J.P. Skinner].

Elias Bartlet, and his wife, can be identified as Katherine Northcote's
first cousin, Mary Walrond (daughter of Katherine Northcote's uncle,
Edmund Walrond) and her husband, Ellis Bartlett, of Hole (in
Branscombe), Devo [Reference: Walrond pedigree by A.J.P. Skinner].

Niece Pointingdon is evidently the same person as "Mrs. Elizabeth
Norcotte" who married in 1673 at Shobrooke, Devon to Thomas Poyntingdon
[Reference: IGI].

So it would seem that four of Katherine Northcote's kinsfolk were her
first cousins through her mother, Bridget Walrond's side of the
famiily, and that two of Katherine's kinsfolk were related through her
Northcote husband.

Thanks go to Barbara Dundas for her thoughtfulness in supplying the
abstract of this will.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John Brandon

Re: English origin of Mrs. Jane Poole (nee Greene) of Taunto

Legg inn av John Brandon » 13 nov 2006 15:37:50

Very interesting will, Doug. I thought I remembered that it
specifically mentioned Jane Poole's son Theophilus, who would have been
named, of course, after Katherine Northcott's brother, Rev. Theophilus
Gale.

With that will in place, it seems like a "slam dunk," as Mr. Cheeney
might say.

The will of Rev. Theophilus Gale mentions "Samuel Lee of Newington
Green," and the sketch of Gale in _Lives of Eminent and Illustrious
Englishmen_ mentions that Rev. Samuel Lee assisted Gale in his pastoral
duties:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=0Ccll ... hilus+gale

I'm sure this is the same Samuel Lee who lived for a time in New
England:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... lee+bignal

See Savage's _Gene. Dictionary_:

[LEE,] SAMUEL, Bristol, b. in London 1623, bred at Magdalen Coll.
Oxford, there creat. M. A. 14 Apr. 1648, and, in violat. of their
rights, made, 9 Apr. 1651, one of the Proctors of the Univ. See Wood's
Fasti Oxon. II. 164. He came over hither 24 June 1686, arr. 22 Aug. as
in Sewall's Almanac, and bec. the sett. min. of B. 8 May 1687; preach.
at the pub. fast in Boston 17 June 1691, and emb. for home, on the
voyage was tak. by a French privateer, carr. into St. Maloes, there d.
in prison the same yr. Mather, III. 223, makes some amends for the
brevity of his narrat. by the praise of its subject. But Baylies
follows Eliot in more sober estimate of him. Rebecca, his d. was third
w. of John Saffin. In a letter to her h. 19 July 1710, Mather, wh. aft.
some yrs. was m. to her sis. Lydia, shows, in an extraord. manner,
exceed. never by him unless in his intemper. address to Gov. Joseph
Dudley, his harshness of admonit. and resolution to govern. Ano. d.
Catharine was w. of Henry Howell, aft. of Stephen Sewall; and this
connex. was assoc. with one of the principal causes of the many
miseries that afflict. the latter days of Cotton Mather. See 4 Mass.
Hist Coll. II. 122.

So Rev. Samuel Lee may have been the one who transported the library of
Theo. Gale to New England ...


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