Fw: King's Kinsfolk: Philip, King of the Romans' kinsman, O

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: King's Kinsfolk: Philip, King of the Romans' kinsman, O

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 05 nov 2006 23:31:13

Otto------Count of Poitou?

He lived from 1177 to 1218. Dr. A.W.E. Dek describes him as Otto of
Brunswick, son of Heinrich the Lion, Duke of Saxony and Bavaria and Matilda
of England. In 1198 he became King of the Romans (Emperor elect)
acknowledged in 1208, crowned emperor in 1209 defeated in 1214 and replaced
by Friedrich II in 1215.

ES Volume II Tafel 76 covers the French Comtes de Poitou. We are concerned
with the period of 1177 to 1218,
Guillaume VIII/X became Count of Poitou in 1126, he died in 1137, his
daughter
Eleanor de Poitou, Duchess of Aquitaine, Queen of France, Queen of England,
is recorded as having succeeded in 1137 as Duchess of Aquitaine and Countess
of Poitou, she died in 1204.

Where does Otto fit in?

Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Richardson"
<royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 4:46 AM
Subject: King's Kinsfolk: Philip, King of the Romans' kinsman, Otto,Count of
Poitou


Dear Newsgroup ~

Otto, Count of Poitou (afterwards Otto IV, Holy Roman Emperor) was
styled "kinsman" ["nepotem nostra"] by Philip, King of the Romans,
in 1198 [Reference: Veterum Scriptorum et Monumentorum, 1 (1724):
1017-1018]. The two men were related in the 3rd and 3rd degrees of
kindred (or if you prefer 2nd cousins), by virtue of their common
descent from Henry the Black, Duke of Bavara, died 1126, as set forth
below.

1. Henry the Black, Duke of Bavaria, died 1126.
2. Henry, Duke of Bavaria & Saxony, died 1139.
3. Henry the Lion, Duke of Bavaria & Saxony, died 1195.
4. Otto, Count of Poitou, afterwards Otto IV, Holy Roman Emperor, died
1218.

1. Henry the Black, Duke of Bavaria, died 1126.
2. Judith of Bavaria, married Frederick II, Duke of Swabia.
3. Frederick Barbarossa, Holy Roman Emperor, diedc 1190
4. Philip, King of the Romans, died 1208.

The above kinship is typical of those found in the pre-1225 period,
being very simple and straightforward, and within the 4th degree.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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Peter Stewart

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Philip, King of the Romans' kinsman, O

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 06 nov 2006 00:07:02

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.168.1162765885.32209.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Otto------Count of Poitou?

He was count of Ponthieu, not Poitou.

Peter Stewart


He lived from 1177 to 1218. Dr. A.W.E. Dek describes him as Otto of
Brunswick, son of Heinrich the Lion, Duke of Saxony and Bavaria and
Matilda of England. In 1198 he became King of the Romans (Emperor elect)
acknowledged in 1208, crowned emperor in 1209 defeated in 1214 and
replaced by Friedrich II in 1215.

ES Volume II Tafel 76 covers the French Comtes de Poitou. We are concerned
with the period of 1177 to 1218,
Guillaume VIII/X became Count of Poitou in 1126, he died in 1137, his
daughter
Eleanor de Poitou, Duchess of Aquitaine, Queen of France, Queen of
England, is recorded as having succeeded in 1137 as Duchess of Aquitaine
and Countess of Poitou, she died in 1204.

Where does Otto fit in?

Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Richardson"
royalancestry@msn.com
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 4:46 AM
Subject: King's Kinsfolk: Philip, King of the Romans' kinsman, Otto,Count
of Poitou


Dear Newsgroup ~

Otto, Count of Poitou (afterwards Otto IV, Holy Roman Emperor) was
styled "kinsman" ["nepotem nostra"] by Philip, King of the Romans,
in 1198 [Reference: Veterum Scriptorum et Monumentorum, 1 (1724):
1017-1018]. The two men were related in the 3rd and 3rd degrees of
kindred (or if you prefer 2nd cousins), by virtue of their common
descent from Henry the Black, Duke of Bavara, died 1126, as set forth
below.

1. Henry the Black, Duke of Bavaria, died 1126.
2. Henry, Duke of Bavaria & Saxony, died 1139.
3. Henry the Lion, Duke of Bavaria & Saxony, died 1195.
4. Otto, Count of Poitou, afterwards Otto IV, Holy Roman Emperor, died
1218.

1. Henry the Black, Duke of Bavaria, died 1126.
2. Judith of Bavaria, married Frederick II, Duke of Swabia.
3. Frederick Barbarossa, Holy Roman Emperor, diedc 1190
4. Philip, King of the Romans, died 1208.

The above kinship is typical of those found in the pre-1225 period,
being very simple and straightforward, and within the 4th degree.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


Gjest

Re: Fw: King's Kinsfolk: Philip, King of the Romans' kinsman

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 nov 2006 01:28:57

Leo van de Pas wrote:
Otto------Count of Poitou?

He lived from 1177 to 1218. Dr. A.W.E. Dek describes him as Otto of
Brunswick, son of Heinrich the Lion, Duke of Saxony and Bavaria and Matilda
of England. In 1198 he became King of the Romans (Emperor elect)
acknowledged in 1208, crowned emperor in 1209 defeated in 1214 and replaced
by Friedrich II in 1215.

ES Volume II Tafel 76 covers the French Comtes de Poitou. We are concerned
with the period of 1177 to 1218,
Guillaume VIII/X became Count of Poitou in 1126, he died in 1137, his
daughter
Eleanor de Poitou, Duchess of Aquitaine, Queen of France, Queen of England,
is recorded as having succeeded in 1137 as Duchess of Aquitaine and Countess
of Poitou, she died in 1204.

Where does Otto fit in?

Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

Some more on Otto's life and career, from Joseph Huffman's 'The Social
Politics of Medieval Diplomacy: Anglo-German Relations (1066-1307)'.
Otto and his brother Wilhelm were left at the English court even after
their father returned to Germany from his exile. Evidence of tutors and
horses for the boys is found in the Pipe Rolls, showing that some care
was taken to see that they were provided for. Wilhelm and Otto were
given to the Emperor Henry VI as hostages for the balance of Richard's
ransom. After their release in 1194, Wilhelm went to Saxony, but Otto
preferred to stay at his uncle Richard's court. Richard granted him
Yorkshire and negotiated for a Scots princess for Otto to marry. As per
Roger of Hoveden: "In the same year [1195] William king of Scots fell
ill... and determined that Otto, son of Henry duke of Saxony, and
nephew of king Richard of England, should succeed him in the kingdom of
Scotland; in such wise that Otto should take with the kingdom his
first-born daughter [Margaret] to wife."

Hoveden then goes onto say some, notably Patrick, Earl of Dunbar,
opposed the kingdom descending through a female line. King William
recovered, and his queen became pregnant, so the plan was off. Richard
knighted Otto and granted him Poitou instead, maybe as a consolation
prize. Huffman, citing Hucker's 'Kaiser Otto IV (MGH, 1990)', says that
Otto was a patron of troubadour songs and literature.

Then Henry VI unexpectedly kicked it in 1197, and Richard started
manuevering Otto into power in Germany. He gave him vast sums of money
to use in his campaign for election. Friedrich Heer in 'The Holy Roman
Empire' describes the scene as follows: "[After the death of Emperor
Henry VI] The contenders for the crown were two young men who differed
fundamentally from one another in nature and disposition. Philip [of
Swabia] was refined, delicately bred, courtly, a 'sweet young man' in
the description of Walther von der Wogelweide, courtly and noble in the
best sense of the word. The sixteen-year-old Otto had grown up during
the Welf exile at the Anglo-Norman court; he was greedy, brutal, and
inwardly insecure. Some people credited him with a plan for turning the
brothels into a public institution."

Both Philipp and Otto were crowned in 1198, but Otto was unable to
rouse much support within Germany. Even his own brother Heinrich allied
with the Staufens against him. In 1199 Richard got an arrow through his
chest, and on his deathbed declared John his successor and left his
jewels and a sizable portion of the treasury to Otto. John refused to
hand over Otto's inheritance however, even though Otto got the pope to
prevail upon John to deliver to him no less than five times. Without
Richard's support most of Otto's political backing evaporated. Philipp
of Swabia was murdered in 1207 and so Otto once more was able to
advance in German politics. Otto married Philipp's daughter Beatrix in
1212, but she died ten days later.

Although King John didn't financially support him as Richard had, Otto
still allied with him against their common foe, Philippe Auguste, in
1214. The alliance against the French king was so important that Otto
finally married his fiancee, the daughter of the duke of Brabant, to
whom he had been betrothed for 15 years, to secure his loyalty. Alas,
it all ended badly, and the duke betrayed him anyway. Guess that's what
Otto got for leaving his daughter a virgin for 15 years.

After that, Otto was desposed in 1215 by Frederick II, and went in
retirement before dying in 1218.

Peter Stewart

Re: Fw: King's Kinsfolk: Philip, King of the Romans' kinsman

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 06 nov 2006 03:03:03

You are quite right, I had what is called nowadays a "brain fade" - from
1196 to 1198 Otto of Brunswick was count of Poitou as originally stated, not
of Ponthieu.

Peter Stewart


<Mississippienne@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162772936.998561.154010@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Leo van de Pas wrote:
Otto------Count of Poitou?

He lived from 1177 to 1218. Dr. A.W.E. Dek describes him as Otto of
Brunswick, son of Heinrich the Lion, Duke of Saxony and Bavaria and
Matilda
of England. In 1198 he became King of the Romans (Emperor elect)
acknowledged in 1208, crowned emperor in 1209 defeated in 1214 and
replaced
by Friedrich II in 1215.

ES Volume II Tafel 76 covers the French Comtes de Poitou. We are
concerned
with the period of 1177 to 1218,
Guillaume VIII/X became Count of Poitou in 1126, he died in 1137, his
daughter
Eleanor de Poitou, Duchess of Aquitaine, Queen of France, Queen of
England,
is recorded as having succeeded in 1137 as Duchess of Aquitaine and
Countess
of Poitou, she died in 1204.

Where does Otto fit in?

Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

Some more on Otto's life and career, from Joseph Huffman's 'The Social
Politics of Medieval Diplomacy: Anglo-German Relations (1066-1307)'.
Otto and his brother Wilhelm were left at the English court even after
their father returned to Germany from his exile. Evidence of tutors and
horses for the boys is found in the Pipe Rolls, showing that some care
was taken to see that they were provided for. Wilhelm and Otto were
given to the Emperor Henry VI as hostages for the balance of Richard's
ransom. After their release in 1194, Wilhelm went to Saxony, but Otto
preferred to stay at his uncle Richard's court. Richard granted him
Yorkshire and negotiated for a Scots princess for Otto to marry. As per
Roger of Hoveden: "In the same year [1195] William king of Scots fell
ill... and determined that Otto, son of Henry duke of Saxony, and
nephew of king Richard of England, should succeed him in the kingdom of
Scotland; in such wise that Otto should take with the kingdom his
first-born daughter [Margaret] to wife."

Hoveden then goes onto say some, notably Patrick, Earl of Dunbar,
opposed the kingdom descending through a female line. King William
recovered, and his queen became pregnant, so the plan was off. Richard
knighted Otto and granted him Poitou instead, maybe as a consolation
prize. Huffman, citing Hucker's 'Kaiser Otto IV (MGH, 1990)', says that
Otto was a patron of troubadour songs and literature.

Then Henry VI unexpectedly kicked it in 1197, and Richard started
manuevering Otto into power in Germany. He gave him vast sums of money
to use in his campaign for election. Friedrich Heer in 'The Holy Roman
Empire' describes the scene as follows: "[After the death of Emperor
Henry VI] The contenders for the crown were two young men who differed
fundamentally from one another in nature and disposition. Philip [of
Swabia] was refined, delicately bred, courtly, a 'sweet young man' in
the description of Walther von der Wogelweide, courtly and noble in the
best sense of the word. The sixteen-year-old Otto had grown up during
the Welf exile at the Anglo-Norman court; he was greedy, brutal, and
inwardly insecure. Some people credited him with a plan for turning the
brothels into a public institution."

Both Philipp and Otto were crowned in 1198, but Otto was unable to
rouse much support within Germany. Even his own brother Heinrich allied
with the Staufens against him. In 1199 Richard got an arrow through his
chest, and on his deathbed declared John his successor and left his
jewels and a sizable portion of the treasury to Otto. John refused to
hand over Otto's inheritance however, even though Otto got the pope to
prevail upon John to deliver to him no less than five times. Without
Richard's support most of Otto's political backing evaporated. Philipp
of Swabia was murdered in 1207 and so Otto once more was able to
advance in German politics. Otto married Philipp's daughter Beatrix in
1212, but she died ten days later.

Although King John didn't financially support him as Richard had, Otto
still allied with him against their common foe, Philippe Auguste, in
1214. The alliance against the French king was so important that Otto
finally married his fiancee, the daughter of the duke of Brabant, to
whom he had been betrothed for 15 years, to secure his loyalty. Alas,
it all ended badly, and the duke betrayed him anyway. Guess that's what
Otto got for leaving his daughter a virgin for 15 years.

After that, Otto was desposed in 1215 by Frederick II, and went in
retirement before dying in 1218.

Douglas Richardson

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Philip, King of the Romans' kinsman, Ot

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 06 nov 2006 10:03:00

Peter Stewart wrote:
"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.168.1162765885.32209.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Otto------Count of Poitou?

He was count of Ponthieu, not Poitou.

Peter Stewart

In your eagerness to find fault with others, you've made an error of
your own. Otto was, of course, Count of Poitou, not Count of Ponthieu.
He was the nephew of King Richard and King John of England.

As you have told us repeatedly, a careful scholar would not make such
mistakes. Perhaps you have judged yourself too harshly, Peter.

DR

Peter Stewart

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Philip, King of the Romans' kinsman, Ot

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 06 nov 2006 11:32:01

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162803780.342476.302320@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Peter Stewart wrote:
"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.168.1162765885.32209.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Otto------Count of Poitou?

He was count of Ponthieu, not Poitou.

Peter Stewart

In your eagerness to find fault with others, you've made an error of
your own. Otto was, of course, Count of Poitou, not Count of Ponthieu.
He was the nephew of King Richard and King John of England.

As you have told us repeatedly, a careful scholar would not make such
mistakes. Perhaps you have judged yourself too harshly, Peter.

This is ridiculous - I criticised no-one in making the error that I have
already pointed out to the newsgroup. I have never told anyone that a
careful scholar cannot make such slips - again, you are projecting your own
failing onto someone else. I always readily admit my mistakes.

Your bitterness is just as unbecoming as your stubborn idiocy.

Peter Stewart

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