A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?

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Terry J Booth

A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?

Legg inn av Terry J Booth » 04 nov 2006 01:40:32

While working on the Percehay and Fauconberge ancestry of my Wentworths, I found a little discussed possible descent from Henry II which may merit consideration for the next RD600 and Douglas Richardson's next edition of PA. While credible secondary sources seem to support it, this newsgroup is far better able than me to identify/document any fatal flaws or - more hopefully - add enough other sources to make it more credible.

I subsequently have found that this line - in its entirety - is shown on Leo van de Paz' great Genealogics website. But the only source cited for generations 9-12 is Nat Taylor's 'Ancestors of Cassandra Elizabeth Taylor 2003'. It is now unclear what Nat's sources were, since his website shows a 2004 revision without this line (the revision is restricted to lines 'in contemporary literature' like RD600). Without doubting Nat's always careful work, Leo's citations might benefit from some added sources.

Before posting this I searched the archives to see if this topic was discussed before. The one item found was a 20 Dec 2002 Paul Reed posting Re: Soothill of Redbourne "My research concerns Sir Gerard and his other wife, the daughter of Lyon Percehay, and that Gerard's father Gerard and his Salvain wife. It should be published next year in the Register." While Paul Reed's Wentworth articles will surely prove the definitive Wentworth reference, other priorities have clearly interfered with their publication since at least 1998. This topic's obvious interest to Wentworth descendants and the availability of the below cited sources thus recommend it for current discussion. If it proves valid, Paul Reed surely deserves the credit for finding it many years ago.

Using the RD600 format, here is the descent :

1. Henry II, King of England, d. 1189 = Eleanor of Aquitane.

2. (illegitimate by Ida, prob de Toeni, later wife of Roger Bigod, 2nd Earl of Norfolk) William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury = Ela, Countess of Salisbury

3. Ida Longespee = William de Beauchamp

4. Ela de Beauchamp = Sir Baldwin Wake

5. Ida Wake = Sir John Stonegrave

6. Isabel de Stonegrave = Simon de Pateshulle

7. Sir John de Pateshulle = Mabel de Grandison

8. Maud de Pateshulle = Walter de Fauconberge

The above 8 generations are shown on page 304 of PA.

9. Roger de Fauconberge = Margaret Darcy

10. Walter de Fauconberge = Maud ---------

11. Isabel de Fauconberge = Edmund Percehay

12. Sir Lionel Percehay = Margaret Babthorpe

The balance of the descent matches that found in RD600 (2006), page 823, and in MCA on page 113.

13. [was 11 on page 823] ------ Percehay/Pereshay = Sir Gerard Sotehill.

14. [was 12]. Richard Sotehill = Agnes ------

15. [was 13]. Isabel Sotehill = Oliver Wentworth

16. [was 14]. William Wentworth = Ellen Gilby

17. [was 15] Christopher Wentworth = Catherine Marbury

18. William Wentworth = Susanna Carter

19. William Wentworth of NH

19. Ann Wentworth = John Lawson
20. Christopher Lawson of MA


Terry Booth
Illinois
P.S. There are at least two other possible Plantagenet ancestries for William Wentworth of NH discussed by this group, but both currently lack convincing evidence of a critical link. One possibility, discussed just last December, is that Henry II's gr-dau Mary Longespee was both wife of Sir Robert de Roos of Wark, Northumberland and mother of Sir Robert's son Robert who m. Agnes de Brus (generation 3 of the RD600 (2006) page 823 line). A second possibility is that the wife of Sir Robert de Ros' grandson was Laura/Lora de Baliol (generation 5 of the RD600 (2006) page line), a suggestion from John Ravilious and others that would lead to a descent - via the Baliols and Douvres of Chilham Castle - from John I. But neither of these suggestions seems widely accepted, nor are either of these wive's names shown on Leo's Genealogics website.


Notes/Sources
**********
1. Generation 8, page 304 of PA, states Walter de Fauconberge, 4th Lord Fauconberge, had a son named Roger. It also notes that Walter "had no issue" by his 2nd wife Isabel Le Bigod, thus making Roger a son of 1st wife Maud. CP Vol. V pages 272-76 discuss Walter, 4th Lord Fauconberge, and pages 276-80 discuss Thomas de Faucomberge, 5th Lord Faucomberge, son and heir of Walter 4th Lord. The CP entry for Thomas notes he had a bro Roger who took custody of Thomas when Thomas was released from imprisonment in Gloucester Castle in 1391, but it does not name Roger's wife or mother.

2. Generations 8-11. (Fauconberge) An extended pedigree can be found in Burke 'Dormant and Extinct Peerages' page 397. It is available online at http://books.google.com/books?id=1ysWkXKSrpIC&pg=PA397 . The Burke pedigree also shows Roger as the son of Maud, disagreeing with PA only by adding an additional Lord Fauconberge (i.e. PA and CP identify generation 8 Sir Walter as 4th Lord, while Burke has him as 5th Lord). The added Lord Fauconberge is the Sir Walter who m. Anastasia de Percy. According to CP, that Sir Walter dsp in the Battle of Bannockburn (24 Jun 1314), bef the 1318 death of his father, and was NOT the father of John (as shown in Burke) but his brother. The confusion no doubt relates to there being an extra Walter Lord Fauconberge created as a 'baron by writ' than the inheritance laws would justify - see page 225 of Nicolas' 'Synopsis of the Peerage of England' online at http://books.google.com/books?id=7zIEAA ... =RA1-PA227 .This same Fauconberge line is also discussed on pages 44-47 of Vol. II of the Duchess of Cleveland's 'Battle Abbey Roll' (available online at http://books.google.com/books?id=Y18JAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA46) - she perhaps relied on Burke, since she also makes Sir Walter the 5th Lord Fauconberge. For some unknown reason the Duchess also states that Gen. 9 Roger was Walter's son by his second wife Isabel Bigod, disagreeing with both Burke and PA. If she is right it would prove fatal to a Plantagenet link. Since PA p. 304 notes 2nd wife Isabel Bigod d. testate, presumably her will (not seen) resolved this to PA's satisfaction. Lastly, a pedigree limited to Roger and his descendants is on page 120 of Flowers' 'Visitations of Yorkshire' (as 'Fauconbridge'), available online at http://books.google.com/books?id=pjMEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA120.

3. Generations 11-13 (Percehay pedigree) can be found on page 238/9 of Flowers' Yorkshire Visitation pedigree for Percehay, available online at http://books.google.com/books?&id=pjMEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA238 . Edmund Percehay's wife is clearly identified as 'Izabel doughter & on of theyres of Sir Walter Fauconbrydge of Whytton in Lyncolnshyre' (the other dau and heiress was Margaret who m. Sir John Constable of Holme on Spalding Moor). His son is identified as 'Sir Lyon Percehay of Ryton', but no female children or grandchildren are listed (the pedigree appears restricted to male descendants if they exist). There is a Percehay of Ryton pedigree in Surtees Society, Vol xxxvi, page 114, but it is too late. Last but not least, the Duchess of Cleveland's 'Battle Abbey Roll' has several pages in Vol. III on the Percehays at http://books.google.com/books?id=FF8JAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA31 . On page 32 she succinctly ties generations 8 through 11 above together by stating "Matilda [AKA Isabel] Fauconberge, who brought Whitton in Lincolnshire to Edmund Percehaie, was the great grand-daughter of Walter, fifth [i.e. 4th by CP and PA count] Lord Fauconberge. Her father had been the son of another country heiress, Margaret D'Arcy of Flixburgh."

4. Generations 13-15 (Sothill pedigree), are found on page 915 of Maddison's Lincolnshire pedigree for 'Southill of Redbourn', available online at http://books.google.com/books?id=IPcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA915 . This source identifies Sir Gerard's wife as 'dau of Sir Lyon Percy, Knt' - Percy is acknowledged to be a variant spelling of Percehay, as can be seen in the footnote at the bottom of the Percehay pedigree. This pedigree also shows Richard Sothill's child "mar. ----- Wentworth of Goxhill". RD600 p. 823 notes several other Sothill sources.

5 Generations 15-19 (Wentworth pedigree). This is the standard Wentworth line from John Wentworth's 1878 'The Wentworth Genealogy' that earlier appeared in NEHGR in Apr 1868 (by genealogist Joseph Lemuel Chester), found online at http://books.google.com/books?id=eyocy7cBriYC&pg=PA120 . This closely matches a little cited and perhaps independently developed 'Wentworth of Clee and Waltham' pedigree on page 1062 of Maddison's Lincolnshire pedigree, available online at http://books.google.com/books?id=IPcMAAAAIAAJ&jtp=1062 . The page 399 RD600 Wentworth descent, starting at generation 13, is referenced in MCA on page 113 in a footnote, thus indicating MCA's acceptance of these later generations. The key link in the pedigree is the generation 15 identification of Isabel Sotehill as wife of Oliver Wentworth - see the Sothill of Redbourne pedigree above and 3 chancery suits noted in MichaelAnne Guido's 15 Oct 2001 SGM posting 'Oliver Wentworth of Goxhill, Lincolnshire' that identify Oliver's wife as Isabel dau of Richard Sotehill. Paul Reed later acknowledged that posting, noting that they matched copies previously in his possession.

Gjest

Re: A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 nov 2006 03:15:52

However, in the 2004 edition of RD600 by Gary Boyd Roberts, the
Wentworth line given is by Paul C. Reed and in the pedigree Oliver
Wentworth's wife is given as Jane (---). The descent is from John
through his illegimate son Richard Fitzroy.

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 04 nov 2006 04:07:46

In article <mailman.70.1162600818.32209.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
"Terry J Booth" <terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

While working on the Percehay and Fauconberge ancestry of my Wentworths, I
found a little discussed possible descent from Henry II which may merit
consideration for the next RD600 and Douglas Richardson's next edition of PA.
While credible secondary sources seem to support it, this newsgroup is far
better able than me to identify/document any fatal flaws or - more hopefully
- add enough other sources to make it more credible.

I subsequently have found that this line - in its entirety - is shown on Leo
van de Paz' great Genealogics website. But the only source cited for
generations 9-12 is Nat Taylor's 'Ancestors of Cassandra Elizabeth Taylor
2003'. It is now unclear what Nat's sources were, since his website shows a
2004 revision without this line (the revision is restricted to lines 'in
contemporary literature' like RD600). Without doubting Nat's always careful
work, Leo's citations might benefit from some added sources.

Terry,

Thank you for this splendid display of the growing power of Google
books, and for posting efforts to further investigate and strengthen the
known Wentworth ancestry. This line did indeed appear for a time on my
earlier website (at earthlink), among Gary-style brief sketches
illustrating various gateways in my childrens' ancestry, in this case
based entirely on correspondence with Paul Reed back in the 1990s, when
he was kind enough to mention this line to me. It was among a series of
notated pages (Gary-style) of gateway descents of my children, which all
went up on my fledgling site briefly in 2003 (crediting Paul); I took it
down because details were not available in published form and I never
took the time to investigate or corroborate it myself. But it was up
long enough for Leo to gather it for his db. Of course I expect the
line checks out--I believe Paul has investigated it very thoroughly in
primary sources.

This was among a number of lines in the Wentworth ancestry I discussed
with Gary briefly last year before he published his revised RD600. In
the revised book Gary included only the Salvayn-Ros-William the Lion
line because of his rule of descent from the most recent monarch, and
also because support for it was already available in print (or in print
plus on sgm), while the Henry II line depended on the more obscure
Percehay connection which had not yet been discussed in print. The
irony is that there are not one but two bogus earlier Wentworth lines
published in earlier versions of Gary's _RD_ series, and yet a third
which had been published and debunked prior to that.

Wentworth doesn't connect to the first-rank Wars-of-the-Roses types, but
he has an interesting, very bushy and old provincial gentry ancestry
which still hasn't been fully plumbed. I do look forward to seeing some
of Paul's careful work on this put into print.

As for the suggestions, both floated here before, of Longespee and
Baliol wives for two of those Rooses of Wark, I'm not sure how
compelling the onomastic signposts are--I think that's why they've been
left alone.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 04 nov 2006 04:33:13

In article <1162606552.574660.195560@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
mhollick@mac.com wrote:

However, in the 2004 edition of RD600 by Gary Boyd Roberts, the
Wentworth line given is by Paul C. Reed and in the pedigree Oliver
Wentworth's wife is given as Jane (---). The descent is from John
through his illegimate son Richard Fitzroy.

Well, I know from his correspondence to me that Paul knew the correct
wife of Oliver Wentworth well before 1997, and had already developed her
ancestry quite extensively. And the line Gary printed in 2004
definitely fails (look at the various stuff posted here in the last
couple of years on the FitzWilliams and Sothills, and the chronological
flaw should be obvious). Paul knew that before 2001, when he mentioned,
here, having pointed this out to Gary when Gary had published the line
in one of his notable kin or RD update pieces in the Nexus or NEA:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... 707c739aac
2

It's just an irony that Gary's 2004 book attributes a line to Paul which
Paul had actually already told him was flawed. Surely not intended as
nose-thumbing, just an oversight.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Gjest

Re: A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 nov 2006 12:37:03

Got it. The chronology of publishing seemed to indicate that Reed
revised his theory. Of course, once he publishes his results, we'll
all know and get the definitive word. Thanks Nat.

On Nov 3, 10:33 pm, Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltay...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
In article <1162606552.574660.195...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,

mholl...@mac.com wrote:
However, in the 2004 edition of RD600 by Gary Boyd Roberts, the
Wentworth line given is by Paul C. Reed and in the pedigree Oliver
Wentworth's wife is given as Jane (---). The descent is from John
through his illegimate son Richard Fitzroy.Well, I know from his correspondence to me that Paul knew the correct
wife of Oliver Wentworth well before 1997, and had already developed her
ancestry quite extensively. And the line Gary printed in 2004
definitely fails (look at the various stuff posted here in the last
couple of years on the FitzWilliams and Sothills, and the chronological
flaw should be obvious). Paul knew that before 2001, when he mentioned,
here, having pointed this out to Gary when Gary had published the line
in one of his notable kin or RD update pieces in the Nexus or NEA:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... d1707c73...
2

It's just an irony that Gary's 2004 book attributes a line to Paul which
Paul had actually already told him was flawed. Surely not intended as
nose-thumbing, just an oversight.

Nat Taylorhttp://www.nltaylor.net

Terry J Booth

Re: A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?

Legg inn av Terry J Booth » 04 nov 2006 14:47:53

Nat,

Thank you for the supportive comments and providing some prior history
regarding this line. Having found your name earlier associated with the
line, I suspected a depth of research and thought beyond the obvious.

I have great respect for RD600 and the concept, but one suspects GBR may
have too many things to do and inadequate staff assistance to tie up all the
loose ends. It is indeed too bad that Paul Reed's name somehow became
associated with the erroneous descent from John I in the first edition.

Terry Booth
Illinois


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?


In article <mailman.70.1162600818.32209.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
"Terry J Booth" <terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

While working on the Percehay and Fauconberge ancestry of my Wentworths,
I
found a little discussed possible descent from Henry II which may merit
consideration for the next RD600 and Douglas Richardson's next edition of
PA.
While credible secondary sources seem to support it, this newsgroup is
far
better able than me to identify/document any fatal flaws or - more
hopefully
- add enough other sources to make it more credible.

I subsequently have found that this line - in its entirety - is shown on
Leo
van de Paz' great Genealogics website. But the only source cited for
generations 9-12 is Nat Taylor's 'Ancestors of Cassandra Elizabeth Taylor
2003'. It is now unclear what Nat's sources were, since his website shows
a
2004 revision without this line (the revision is restricted to lines 'in
contemporary literature' like RD600). Without doubting Nat's always
careful
work, Leo's citations might benefit from some added sources.

Terry,

Thank you for this splendid display of the growing power of Google
books, and for posting efforts to further investigate and strengthen the
known Wentworth ancestry. This line did indeed appear for a time on my
earlier website (at earthlink), among Gary-style brief sketches
illustrating various gateways in my childrens' ancestry, in this case
based entirely on correspondence with Paul Reed back in the 1990s, when
he was kind enough to mention this line to me. It was among a series of
notated pages (Gary-style) of gateway descents of my children, which all
went up on my fledgling site briefly in 2003 (crediting Paul); I took it
down because details were not available in published form and I never
took the time to investigate or corroborate it myself. But it was up
long enough for Leo to gather it for his db. Of course I expect the
line checks out--I believe Paul has investigated it very thoroughly in
primary sources.

This was among a number of lines in the Wentworth ancestry I discussed
with Gary briefly last year before he published his revised RD600. In
the revised book Gary included only the Salvayn-Ros-William the Lion
line because of his rule of descent from the most recent monarch, and
also because support for it was already available in print (or in print
plus on sgm), while the Henry II line depended on the more obscure
Percehay connection which had not yet been discussed in print. The
irony is that there are not one but two bogus earlier Wentworth lines
published in earlier versions of Gary's _RD_ series, and yet a third
which had been published and debunked prior to that.

Wentworth doesn't connect to the first-rank Wars-of-the-Roses types, but
he has an interesting, very bushy and old provincial gentry ancestry
which still hasn't been fully plumbed. I do look forward to seeing some
of Paul's careful work on this put into print.

As for the suggestions, both floated here before, of Longespee and
Baliol wives for two of those Rooses of Wark, I'm not sure how
compelling the onomastic signposts are--I think that's why they've been
left alone.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

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