English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

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John Brandon

English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 01 nov 2006 21:08:43

I would like to draw attention to a nice webpage that I believe has
helped to clarify the English origin of an American settler, Rodolphus
Elmes of Scituate in Plymouth Colony (later in the Massachusetts Bay):

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... ies09.html

See also

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... phus+elmes

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC5 ... phus+elmes

http://books.google.com/books?id=hcyTX5 ... mes&jtp=63

The first website above quotes the will of widow Sarah Elmes from the
NEHGR:

"WILL OF SARAH ELMES, of the parish of St Saviour's, Southwark, in the
county of Surrey, widow, 25 Aug 1653, proved 20 Apr 1654. To son
ANTHONY ELMES five pounds. To son RADOLPHUS ELMES (now in parts beyond
the seas) the sum of ten pounds if he shall be living at the time of my
decease. To son JONATHAN ELMES ten pounds within one month after my
decease. To grand child JONATHAN ELMES, son of the said JONATHAN, ten
pounds, and to each child as MARY, the wife of the said son JONATHAN,
ten pounds and to such child as MARY, the wife of the said son
JONATHAN, now goeth with all ten pounds. To son HENRY ELMES ten pounds
within one month. To my two grand children, CURTIS AND HENRY ELMES
(minors) sons of my said son HENRY, ten pounds apiece. To my two grand
children JOHN AND SARAH MARIES, children of my daughter MARGARET
MARIES, of the parish of St Saviour's, Southwark, widow, twenty pounds
apiece at the age of one and twenty years or day of marriage. To my
loving cousin SARAH BEST twenty shillings (for a ring) and to sister
ELIZABETH STURMEY, twenty shillings and good friend MR HAMOND of
Pudding Lane twenty shillings (for rings). Daughter MARGARET MARIES to
be sole executrix and Mr JOHN CHELSHAM and loving cousing MR RALPH
COLLINS overseears."

This clearly seems to be the mother of the American immigrant (and note
especially that she had children Anthony and Margaret). Last February,
I posted an item from the reign of James I:

Lists & Indexes, vol. 47 [_Index of Chancery Proceedings (Series I.),
Preserved in the Public Record Office, James I. Vol. I._], p. 298:

--Rodolph Elmes.
--Humfrey Elmes.
--Manor of Bouneyhithe _alias_ Boulney and lands and tenements in
Boulney, Lachbrooke, Shiplacke, and Harding (Oxford).

This seems to indicate that there was an earlier Rodolph or Rhodolphus
Elmes, presumably husband of Sarah and father of Rodolphus, born about
1620, who came to America. The first website above quotes an M.I. in
the church of Henley-on-Thames, "[s]acred to the memory of the family
of ELMES heretofore of Bolney in this county ...," which matches up
with the Chancery proceeding mentioned the "manor of Bouneyhithe
_alias_ Boulney.". First listed on this monument were an Anthony
Elmes, Esq., who died "22 Nov 1621 Aged 75" and his wife Margaret
(compare these names with the names of widow Sarah Elmes' children).
Anthony and Margaret Elmes had a son Humphrey Elmes (again a familiar
name). The website then gives a selection of entries from the parish
register of St. Margaret, Harpsden, Oxfordshire:

23 Apr 1587 Humferye son and heir of Mr Anthony Elmes Esq
31 Oct 1591 Anne Elmes
28 Feb 1592 Raphe Elmes
2 Jan 1595 Ales dau of Mr Anthonye Elmes
23 Jan 1597 Elizabeth dau of Mr Anthonye Elmes

Mightn't this "Ralphe" Elmes be the person later known as Rodolphus
Elmes the elder?

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... frey+elmes

John Brandon

Re: English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 02 nov 2006 01:23:26

W.O. Hassall, _Index of Persons in Oxfordshire Deeds Acquired by the
Bodleian Library, 1878-1963_ (Oxfordshire Record Society, vol. 45
[1966/7]), p. 71:


Elmes (Anthony). Shiplake witness (1745), .... His Shiplake fine
(1556), .... ; of Boulney, Oxon. Shiplake deeds of (1595), ....
witness there (1595, 1662), ...

Elmes (Elizabeth), widow of Humphrey Elmes, of Latchbrooke. Shiplake
deed of (1692), ....

Elmes (Forster), of Bowney Heath, Oxon., gent. Rotherfield Greys lease
to (1622), ....

Elmes (Humphrey). Issues of his lands (1658), MS. rolls Oxon. 61; of
Boulney, Oxon., esq., son of Anthony Elmes esq. and husband of Mary.
Harpsden sale by (1639), .... Shiplake settlement on marriage with
Elizabeth, daughter of Francis Ingolsby (1665), .... of Westminster,
esq. Shiplake grant from (1662), ... father of Humphrey .... lord of
the manor of Lachbrooke (Shiplake). His court rolls (1623, 1634), ....

taf

Re: English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av taf » 02 nov 2006 03:14:07

John Brandon wrote:

The first website above quotes the will of widow Sarah Elmes from the
NEHGR:

"WILL OF SARAH ELMES, of the parish of St Saviour's, Southwark, in the
county of Surrey, widow, 25 Aug 1653, proved 20 Apr 1654. To son
ANTHONY ELMES five pounds. To son RADOLPHUS ELMES (now in parts beyond
the seas) the sum of ten pounds if he shall be living at the time of my

[. . . .]

This clearly seems to be the mother of the American immigrant (and note
especially that she had children Anthony and Margaret). Last February,
I posted an item from the reign of James I:

Lists & Indexes, vol. 47 [_Index of Chancery Proceedings (Series I.),
Preserved in the Public Record Office, James I. Vol. I._], p. 298:

--Rodolph Elmes.
--Humfrey Elmes.
--Manor of Bouneyhithe _alias_ Boulney and lands and tenements in
Boulney, Lachbrooke, Shiplacke, and Harding (Oxford).

This seems to indicate that there was an earlier Rodolph or Rhodolphus
Elmes, presumably husband of Sarah and father of Rodolphus, born about
1620, who came to America.

Perhaps I am missing something, but what enables us to presume that
this Chancery Rodolph is the husband of Sarah? Could he not have been
uncle or grandfather, or even more distantly related (if at all)? I
didn't see anything that links the St. Saviour group with the Oxon
group, other than a general similarity in the use of names.

taf

Gjest

Re: English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 03:23:54

On Nov 1, 3:08 pm, "John Brandon" <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I would like to draw attention to a nice webpage that I believe has
helped to clarify the English origin of an American settler, Rodolphus
Elmes of Scituate in Plymouth Colony (later in the Massachusetts Bay):

[SNIPPED]


Most of this information is already in Great Migration 1634-5, Vol.
II:424-6 (from 2001). I'm not sure how new the additional information
on the website is, but as TAF points out, it is mere speculation now.

John Brandon

Re: English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 02 nov 2006 13:13:44

Most of this information is already in Great Migration 1634-5, Vol.
II:424-6 (from 2001). I'm not sure how new the additional information
on the website is, but as TAF points out, it is mere speculation now.

The only thing that is in Great Migration is the will of widow Sarah
Elmes, which has been known about for many years.

If I may say so, far from being "mere" speculation, it is very
interesting--and likely--speculation. The fact that Sarah Elmes'
eldest children were Anthony and Margaret is a crucial fact.

If someone can personally prod Gary Boyd Roberts into searching through
his back years of correspondence, there is actually another reference
to a James I Chancery suit involving Rodolphus Elmes I which I sent him
many years ago.

John Brandon

Re: English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 02 nov 2006 15:22:42

Perhaps I am missing something, but what enables us to presume that
this Chancery Rodolph is the husband of Sarah? Could he not have been
uncle or grandfather, or even more distantly related (if at all)? I
didn't see anything that links the St. Saviour group with the Oxon
group, other than a general similarity in the use of names.

I think we can assume he was some relation of the American immigrant,
because ...

1) Rodolph is a very unusual Christian name (although perhaps an
affectation if the first one was actually baptized "Raphe"); and
2) Elmes is a somewhat distinctive surname.

Once this assumption is made, then the Chancery suit links these Rodolf
Elmeses to the Bolney-Harpsden-Shiplake-Henley family of minor gentry.

I'm always amused by the fact that the people who are most critical of
the postings of others on this group are only rarely able to come up
with anything new of their own. To quote Cioran, "Resentment is not a
good thing."

taf

Re: English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av taf » 04 nov 2006 00:19:22

John Brandon wrote:
Perhaps I am missing something, but what enables us to presume that
this Chancery Rodolph is the husband of Sarah? Could he not have been
uncle or grandfather, or even more distantly related (if at all)? I
didn't see anything that links the St. Saviour group with the Oxon
group, other than a general similarity in the use of names.

I think we can assume he was some relation of the American immigrant,
because ...

1) Rodolph is a very unusual Christian name (although perhaps an
affectation if the first one was actually baptized "Raphe"); and
2) Elmes is a somewhat distinctive surname.

Once this assumption is made, then the Chancery suit links these Rodolf
Elmeses to the Bolney-Harpsden-Shiplake-Henley family of minor gentry.

It is a bit of a jump to go from "some relation" to presuming
paternity, though. Were he uncle, you would still see the same
onomastic continuity, so it seems extremely rash to simply pick someone
of the same name, however rare that name, and presume he must be the
father. Also, I have, several times, come across families that used the
same unusual name, but were of no discernible (or quite distant)
relationship to each other. As it turned out, the unusual names were
local/temporal fads. (I recall specifically the name Fabian appearing
from out of the blue in two lines separated by a handful of
generations.) The same applies to the other names - I have been
researching a family that is still using the name Anthony on different
continents and separated from the common ancestor by 350 years.

There is still a bit of work to be done here.

I'm always amused by the fact that the people who are most critical of
the postings of others on this group are only rarely able to come up
with anything new of their own. To quote Cioran, "Resentment is not a
good thing."

Oh, please! I asked my question because of my resentment of . . . .
what? What exactly am I resenting so deeply that it causes me to want
to understand the basis for a genealogical presumption? Have we sunk
to the point of launching ad hominems at anyone who asks for
clarification?

I'm always amused by people who present a line that is not supported by
the evidence that supposedly serves as its basis, and then somehow make
it the fault of the people who point out the problem. To quote Jack
Potter, Postmaster General of the United States, "Don't shoot the
messenger."

taf

John Brandon

Re: English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 04 nov 2006 18:13:08

Rodolph is a little more uncommon than Fabian or Anthony.

I still think it's a sensible hypothesis to investigate for someone's
who is a descendant (which I'm not).

Unfortunately the messenger always delivers the same sort of sour
putdowns of sometimes very helpful ideas. We have to accept that
genealogy is not always capable of the strict proof required of
scientific hypotheses.

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 04 nov 2006 20:02:19

In article <1162660388.273708.38100@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:

Rodolph is a little more uncommon than Fabian or Anthony.

IGI, all events, England, 1640-1680 (40-year slice taken at random):
Fabian: 109 hits. Rodolph: 200+ hits (not including Radulph, Rodulph,
Ralph, Rafe, etc.).

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

John Brandon

Re: English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 04 nov 2006 23:49:35

Wouldn't Radulph or Rodulph be the minister's Latinization of the given
name Ralph? I.e., the child would really be called "Ralph"?

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 05 nov 2006 02:08:09

In article <1162680575.669476.105280@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:

Wouldn't Radulph or Rodulph be the minister's Latinization of the given
name Ralph? I.e., the child would really be called "Ralph"?

Most likely. Many more Ralphs (however it appears in the record) than
Fabians. So one might be justified in hesitating to jump to a
conclusion of two with this name being father and son, since it wasn't
the rarest of names. I think that's all Todd was pointing out. But the
your nuggets on this family are certainly useful and the line may well
be as presumed here.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

taf

Re: English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av taf » 05 nov 2006 04:53:16

John Brandon wrote:
Rodolph is a little more uncommon than Fabian or Anthony.

You are the one making conclusions based on Anthony being used, so
don't blame me. Anyhow, the point is that just because you find two
people of the same name, however rare, it doesn't automatically make
one the father of the other. I asked if there was anything more - you
insulted me for asking.

I still think it's a sensible hypothesis to investigate for someone's
who is a descendant (which I'm not).

Who says it isn't. I just was questioning the presumption that one
Rodolph should be father of the other, just because they had the same
name (a character flaw, apparently).

Unfortunately the messenger always delivers the same sort of sour
putdowns of sometimes very helpful ideas.

"Perhaps I am missing something, but what enables us to presume that
this Chancery Rodolph is the husband of Sarah? Yep, a sour putdown.
Ranks right up there with "pardon me, but do you have the time?" and
"how are the wife and kids?" Get a life! (Now _that_ is a putdown.
Recognize the difference?)

We have to accept that
genealogy is not always capable of the strict proof required of
scientific hypotheses.

Yes, we do, but we do not have to accept that the deficits in a theory
should be hidden beneath overstatement, unsupported presumption, and
belittling of those who don't jump on the bandwagon.

taf

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 05 nov 2006 17:00:07

In message of 5 Nov, "taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:

John Brandon wrote:

We have to accept that genealogy is not always capable of the strict
proof required of scientific hypotheses.

Yes, we do, but we do not have to accept that the deficits in a theory
should be hidden beneath overstatement, unsupported presumption, and
belittling of those who don't jump on the bandwagon.

It depends on what 'strict proof' could possibly refer to.

In science, it is impossible to strictly prove a hypothesis. About the
best you can do is to strictly disprove a hypothesis but even that is
not always successful against the old adherents of old hypotheses.

It has been said that the old hypotheses may not die, but that the
adherents do. (Was it not Gauss who said this of the phlogiston theory
of combustion?)

The best that can be said of a scientific hypotheses is that it is a
reasonable explanation of some phenomena. This requires a human to make
an intelligent judgement on what is offered him.

In this I think genealogy is very similar. We gather together as much
information as we can find and make some hypotheses on what is going on.
It only takes one or two new facts to falsify such a hypothesis. And
bad hypotheses are frequently held till the death of the bad holders.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

John Brandon

Re: English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 05 nov 2006 18:54:00

Most likely. Many more Ralphs (however it appears in the record) than
Fabians. So one might be justified in hesitating to jump to a
conclusion of two with this name being father and son, since it wasn't
the rarest of names. I think that's all Todd was pointing out. But the
your nuggets on this family are certainly useful and the line may well
be as presumed here.

But my point is that we have two grown men (not merely infants at
baptism) using the name Radulph or Rodulph. That situation is rather
more uncommon.

Gjest

Re: English origin of Rodolphus1 Elmes of Scituate, Mass.

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 nov 2006 15:34:57

John Brandon wrote:
Perhaps I am missing something, but what enables us to presume that
this Chancery Rodolph is the husband of Sarah? Could he not have been
uncle or grandfather, or even more distantly related (if at all)? I
didn't see anything that links the St. Saviour group with the Oxon
group, other than a general similarity in the use of names.

I think we can assume he was some relation of the American immigrant,
because ...

1) Rodolph is a very unusual Christian name (although perhaps an
affectation if the first one was actually baptized "Raphe"); and
2) Elmes is a somewhat distinctive surname.

Once this assumption is made, then the Chancery suit links these Rodolf
Elmeses to the Bolney-Harpsden-Shiplake-Henley family of minor gentry.

There are two PCC wills which might be useful here:

John Elmes of Rotherfield Greys, Oxon, gent 1608

Richard Elmes of Bolney Heath, Oxon, gent 1631

Have your tried the relevant VCH (I haven't looked to see what coverage
Oxfordshire has).

MA-R

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