[REVISED POST] More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's ki

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Douglas Richardson

[REVISED POST] More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's ki

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 31 okt 2006 06:48:34

Dear Newsgroup ~

Often when seeking answers, it's sometimes necessary to widen the scope
of one's search. In this particular case, we're presently seeking to
determine the nature of the kinship which existed between Agnes de
Baudement, Countess of Braine (died 1204) and Blanche of Navarre, wife
of Thibaut, Count of Champagne. Both women have an enormous number of
modern descendants.

Searching through various French cartularies, I've come across yet
another kinsman of Countess Agnes, namely Hugues de Garlande, Bishop of
Orléans (died 1206). I find that Hugues, Bishop of Orléans, gave 20
sous of rent on the grange of Cravant in 1204 to Sainte-Croix of
Orléans to celebrate the anniversary of his cousin [consanguinea],
Agnes, Countess of Braine [Reference: Joseph Thillier and Eugène
Jarry, editors, Cartulaire de Sainte-Croix d'Orléans (814-1300)
(1906): 224]. Elsewhere, I note another charter dated 1201 in which
Bishop Hugues refers to a certain Manasse and Hugues as his nephews or
kinsmen [nepotibus] [Reference: Ibid., 210].

I presume that Bishop Hugues de Garlande is descended in some manner
from Guillaume de Garlande (died 1121), seigneur of Livry, Seneschal of
France, and his wife, Eustachie, allegedly daughter of Bouchard I de
Baudemont and his wife, Elizabeth de Crécy. For further particulars
on the Garlande family, please see the following weblink (which
unfortunately doesn't mention Bishop Hugues de Garlande):

http://bondy-histoire.chez-alice.fr/Garlande.htm

If this is Bishop Hugues de Garlande's' correct line of descent, it
would seem likely that he and Agnes de Baudemont, Countess of Braine,
are related by way of a common descent from the Baudemont family. This
matter deserves further study.

In a related vein, I've also found a charter issued by a certain
Anselme de Garlande in 1217 to the monks of Monstiers-en-Argonne "for
the repose of the soul of Renard de Dampierre his kinsman [cognat]."
[Reference: Éduoard de Barthélemy, Diocèse ancien de
Châlons-sur-Marne, histoire et monuments, 2 (1861): 432]. I presume
he is the same person as Anselme de Garlande, seigneur of Possesse,
whose charter dated 1215 names his father, Anselme [Reference: Ibid.].
The father is presumably the Anselme de Garlande, seigneur of Possesse,
who issued two charters in 1197 naming his wife, Sophie, Countess of
Chiny, and his son, Anselme [Reference: Ibid., 430]. I assume Renard
de Dampierre is the same person as Renard, Count of Dampierre, who
issued charter in 1203 [Reference: Ibid., pg. 431]. He may also be the
same person as Count Renard de Dampierre, son of Henry, whose undated
charter confirmed the gifts of his ancestors, Count Frédéric and
Henry "fils de celui-ci." [Reference: Ibid., 430].

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

Re: More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's kinsman, Hugu

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 31 okt 2006 17:51:58

Peter Stewart wrote:

< No, he wasn't - the bishop was a son of Guido, seigneur of Tournan by
his
< second wife, Helissende. Guido's father Gilbert was a younger brother
of
< Guillaume the seneschal.

You left off your sources again. You getting lazy, Peter?

DR

Peter Stewart

Re: More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's kinsman, Hugu

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 31 okt 2006 22:31:01

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162313518.794586.160450@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Peter Stewart wrote:

No, he wasn't - the bishop was a son of Guido, seigneur of Tournan by
his
second wife, Helissende. Guido's father Gilbert was a younger brother
of
Guillaume the seneschal.

You left off your sources again. You getting lazy, Peter?

Lazy, indeed - so you are far-gone enough in egomania to imagine that I have
some kind of obligation to assist you, that you can assert in public without
drawing further ridicule on yourself?

This is a discussion forum, not a free information service for shiftless
wannabe "historians".

Peter Stewart

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