Fw: Ida de Chiny

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: Ida de Chiny

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 okt 2006 08:46:48

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: Ida de Chiny


Dear Leo ~

Thank you for posting the five sources which discuss the identity of
the first wife of Duke Godfrey I of Lorraine. As you point out, two
sources say Duke Godfrey's wife was a Namur, three say she was a Chiny.
That's a bit of a muddle, isn't it? And, none of the five sources
appear to be based on solid contemporary evidence.

----------------How do you know? Do you have access to the works mentioned?
I understand Knetsch is one of the standard works on the House of Brabant.
Do you know what the sources are for that work? I have never seen it.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
According to Alberic de Troisfontaines, Duke Godfrey's first wife was a
descendant in some manner from the comital Namur family. Quite
possibly there are other alternatives for the parentage of Duke
Godfrey's wife than the ones set forth by Paget and others. Needless
to say, this matter deserves further study.

One possibility I've examined is for Duke Godfrey's wife to be a
daughter of Gerhard (died 1070), Duke of Upper-Lorraine (your ID
I00120309), and his wife, Hadwide. If Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands
website can be trusted (which is debatable), such an arrangement would
give Duke Godfrey's wife a Namur mother. Also, Duke Godfrey's wife
would be the sister of Thierry II, Duke of Lorraine, who married Duke
Godfrey's widowed sister-in-law, Gertrude of Flanders.

As it stands, this arrangement would not open the door for a near
kinship between Blanche of Navarre and Duke Henry I of Brabant, but it
would make Duke Henry I to be near related to Blanche of Navarre's
known kinswoman, Eleanor de Vermandois. I note that Eleanor de
Vermandois descends from Thierry II, Duke of Lorraine. Perhaps
Eleanor's Lorraine connection is part of the solution as to how Duke
Henry I and Countess Eleanor are both related to Blanche of Navarre.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Leo van de Pas wrote:
Douglas Richardson : "No more Ida of Namur (or Chiny)."

Not having followed this line of messages properly, it is perhaps
foolish to step in, especially as I can only quote secondary sources.

I can quote two sources naming her father as Albert III of Namur:

Europaische Stammtafeldn (Freytag von Loringhoven) Volume II
published 1975 Tafel 8

Gerald Paget in his monumental work on the ancestry of the Prince of
Wales

----------------------------------------------
But the de Chiny origins are quoted in

Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, Fuerstliche Haeuser, 1961 page 54

Gens Nostra 1985 page 56 by prominent Dutch genealogist H. H. W. van
Eijk

Europaische Stammtafeln (Schwennicke) volume 1.2 published 1999 Tafel
236
Sources for Tafel 236 mainly Carl Knetsch, Das Haus Brabant Band I,
Darmstadt 1917; II Darmstadt 1931
but there are several more sources mentioned, a most recent one is :
Ruediger E. Barth, Der Herzog in Lothringen om 10.Jahrhundert,
published in Sigmaringen in 1990.

---------------------------------------------
Is there enough "proof" to discard so easily something that seems to
have been accepted for some time?

Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia


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