More Medieval Kinsfolk: King Henry I of England's kinsman, P

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Douglas Richardson

More Medieval Kinsfolk: King Henry I of England's kinsman, P

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 28 okt 2006 21:52:07

Dear Newsgroup ~

As we proceed to examine the acknowledged kinships among Western
European royalty and nobility in the pre-1225 world, I should mention
one kinship which is alluded to in secondary works, albeit without
documentation.

In the previous post, we saw that Pope Calixtus II was specifically
identified as kinsman of Holy Roman Emperor Henry V by William of Tyre.
We also saw a vague reference by Z.N. Brooke that Pope Calixtus II "he
could speak of the Emperor as his kinsman." While searching for
additional information regarding Pope Calixtus II's extended kinsfolk,
I encountered two historical works both which state that Pope Calixtus
II was also the kinsman of King Henry I of England.

In the first of these works, the author, Mr. Stephens, says the
following:

"... The new pope [Calixtus II} was connected with the chief sovereigns
in Europe. Louis of France had married his niece; Alphonso, heir to
the throne of Castile, was his nephew; the Emperor and he had a common
ancestress in Agnes of Poictiers; and even Henry of England counted him
for a kinsman, as they were both of them great-grandsons of Richard II.
(the Good), duke of Normandy." [Reference: W. R. W. Stephens,
Hildebrand and His Times (1888), pg. 208].

In the second of these works, the author, Mr. Freeman states the
following:

"But Pope Calixtus was too wary rashly to commit himself to any
condemnation of the King of the English. He was moreover Henry's
kinsman, a nephew of Guy, the old rebel that was overthrown at
Val-ès-dunes." [Reference: Edward Augustus Freeman, The History of the
Norman Conquest of England (1870-1879), pg. 127].

Pope Calixtus II and King Henry I of England were in fact related in
the 3rd and 3rd degrees of kindred (or if you prefer 2nd cousins), by
virtue of their common descent from Richard II, Duke of Normandy (died
1027), as set forth below:

1. Richard II, Duke of Normandy, died 1027.
2. Adeliza of Normandy, married Renaud I, Count of Burgundy.
3. Guillaume I, Count of Burgundy, died 1087.
4. Pope Calixtus II (Guy of Burgundy), died 1124.

1. Richard II, Duke of Normandy, died 1027.
2. Robert, Duke of Normandy, died 1035.
3. William the Conqueror, King of England, died 1087.
4. King Henry I of England, died 1135.

As with Mr. Brooke, neither Stephens or Freeman gives a contemporary
source that Pope Calixtus II actually claimed kinship with King Henry I
of England, or vice versa. If anyone knows of a contemporary reference
to kinship between these two men, I'd certainly like to know about it.

As stated in my first post, Pope Calixtus II was the brother of
Raymond, Count of Burgundy, the great-grandfather of Blanche of
Navarre. All of the kinships which will follow in this series will
involve either the family of Blanche of Navarre, or that of her
husband, Thibaut, Count of Champagne.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Peter Stewart

Re: More Medieval Kinsfolk: King Henry I of England's kinsma

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 28 okt 2006 23:41:17

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162068727.561773.5990@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...

<snip>

As with Mr. Brooke, neither Stephens or Freeman gives a contemporary
source that Pope Calixtus II actually claimed kinship with King Henry I
of England, or vice versa. If anyone knows of a contemporary reference
to kinship between these two men, I'd certainly like to know about it.

This evidently means you would like someone else to do your research for
you.

However, the pursuit is considered a waste of time by those who can provide
the information you are seeking.

The correspondence of Pope Calixtus II is not hard to find, so why not shift
for yourself - almost like a trained historian?

Peter Stewart

CED

Re: More Medieval Kinsfolk: King Henry I of England's kinsma

Legg inn av CED » 29 okt 2006 05:13:24

Peter:

It appears that we are to be treated to more of those WIRTWL's.

CED

Peter Stewart wrote:
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162068727.561773.5990@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...

snip

As with Mr. Brooke, neither Stephens or Freeman gives a contemporary
source that Pope Calixtus II actually claimed kinship with King Henry I
of England, or vice versa. If anyone knows of a contemporary reference
to kinship between these two men, I'd certainly like to know about it.

This evidently means you would like someone else to do your research for
you.

However, the pursuit is considered a waste of time by those who can provide
the information you are seeking.

The correspondence of Pope Calixtus II is not hard to find, so why not shift
for yourself - almost like a trained historian?

Peter Stewart

Douglas Richardson

Re: More Medieval Kinsfolk: King Henry I of England's kinsma

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 29 okt 2006 17:00:20

Dear Newsgroup ~

Jamie kindly supplied me the following references regarding Pope
Calixtus II and King Henry I of England. Thank you very much Jamie.

1. GND [Gesta Normannorum Ducum], viii 30 (Pope Calixtus II met Henry
at Chaumont-en-Vexin 1119)
2. Orderic Vitalis, vi 282
3. Eadmer, Historia Novorum in Anglia (Roll Series), pp 258-9
4. GR [Gestis Regum Anglorum], ii 482 (William of Malmesbury)
5. Hugh the Chanter, History of the Church of York, pg. 126

The reference to Eadmer above is available through Google Book Search.
I examined the two pages cited by Jamie. The pages concern Pope
Calixtus II's meeting with King Henry I of England at Gisors in 1119.
However, I found no reference to kinship between the two men.

Perhaps one of the other works cited by Jamies mentions the kinship
between Pope Calixtus II and King Henry I.

Once again, thanks Jamie.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Peter Stewart

Re: More Medieval Kinsfolk: King Henry I of England's kinsma

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 29 okt 2006 21:17:02

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162137620.859085.311160@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~

Jamie kindly supplied me the following references regarding Pope
Calixtus II and King Henry I of England. Thank you very much Jamie.

1. GND [Gesta Normannorum Ducum], viii 30 (Pope Calixtus II met Henry
at Chaumont-en-Vexin 1119)
2. Orderic Vitalis, vi 282
3. Eadmer, Historia Novorum in Anglia (Roll Series), pp 258-9
4. GR [Gestis Regum Anglorum], ii 482 (William of Malmesbury)
5. Hugh the Chanter, History of the Church of York, pg. 126

The reference to Eadmer above is available through Google Book Search.
I examined the two pages cited by Jamie. The pages concern Pope
Calixtus II's meeting with King Henry I of England at Gisors in 1119.
However, I found no reference to kinship between the two men.

Perhaps one of the other works cited by Jamies mentions the kinship
between Pope Calixtus II and King Henry I.

And how can any of these answer your question as to whether or not Pope
Calixtus II himself referred to King Henry I as his kinsman?

Once again, why don't you simply consult the letters and other writings of
Calixtus II? Most if not all are available online. Can it be that a trained
historian and/or a professional genealogist doesn't even know how to find
such an important source when he wants it, and instead thrashes around in an
internet newsgroup waiting for someone else to do his research?

Peter Stewart

Vaughan Sanders

Re: More Medieval Kinsfolk: King Henry I of England's kinsma

Legg inn av Vaughan Sanders » 30 okt 2006 19:14:14

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162137620.859085.311160@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~

Jamie kindly supplied me the following references regarding Pope
Calixtus II and King Henry I of England. Thank you very much Jamie.

1. GND [Gesta Normannorum Ducum], viii 30 (Pope Calixtus II met Henry
at Chaumont-en-Vexin 1119)
2. Orderic Vitalis, vi 282
3. Eadmer, Historia Novorum in Anglia (Roll Series), pp 258-9
4. GR [Gestis Regum Anglorum], ii 482 (William of Malmesbury)
5. Hugh the Chanter, History of the Church of York, pg. 126

The reference to Eadmer above is available through Google Book Search.
I examined the two pages cited by Jamie. The pages concern Pope
Calixtus II's meeting with King Henry I of England at Gisors in 1119.
However, I found no reference to kinship between the two men.

Perhaps one of the other works cited by Jamies mentions the kinship
between Pope Calixtus II and King Henry I.

Once again, thanks Jamie.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


Check out William of Malmesbury, he has a lot to say about Calixtus.
I gave you the Stubbs translation reference, Sharpe / Stevenson is Bk V 406
for Gisor then 431 onwards.
I think you can rule out the GND and I can't see anything of help in the GR,
Oderic might say something.

Jamie

Douglas Richardson

Re: More Medieval Kinsfolk: King Henry I of England's kinsma

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 30 okt 2006 19:40:40

Thanks again for your comments, Jamie. Much appreciated.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Vaughan Sanders wrote:
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162137620.859085.311160@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~

Jamie kindly supplied me the following references regarding Pope
Calixtus II and King Henry I of England. Thank you very much Jamie.

1. GND [Gesta Normannorum Ducum], viii 30 (Pope Calixtus II met Henry
at Chaumont-en-Vexin 1119)
2. Orderic Vitalis, vi 282
3. Eadmer, Historia Novorum in Anglia (Roll Series), pp 258-9
4. GR [Gestis Regum Anglorum], ii 482 (William of Malmesbury)
5. Hugh the Chanter, History of the Church of York, pg. 126

The reference to Eadmer above is available through Google Book Search.
I examined the two pages cited by Jamie. The pages concern Pope
Calixtus II's meeting with King Henry I of England at Gisors in 1119.
However, I found no reference to kinship between the two men.

Perhaps one of the other works cited by Jamies mentions the kinship
between Pope Calixtus II and King Henry I.

Once again, thanks Jamie.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


Check out William of Malmesbury, he has a lot to say about Calixtus.
I gave you the Stubbs translation reference, Sharpe / Stevenson is Bk V 406
for Gisor then 431 onwards.
I think you can rule out the GND and I can't see anything of help in the GR,
Oderic might say something.

Jamie

Vaughan Sanders

Re: More Medieval Kinsfolk: King Henry I of England's kinsma

Legg inn av Vaughan Sanders » 30 okt 2006 21:34:58

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162233640.253287.153460@e64g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Thanks again for your comments, Jamie. Much appreciated.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Vaughan Sanders wrote:
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162137620.859085.311160@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~

Jamie kindly supplied me the following references regarding Pope
Calixtus II and King Henry I of England. Thank you very much Jamie.

1. GND [Gesta Normannorum Ducum], viii 30 (Pope Calixtus II met Henry
at Chaumont-en-Vexin 1119)
2. Orderic Vitalis, vi 282
3. Eadmer, Historia Novorum in Anglia (Roll Series), pp 258-9
4. GR [Gestis Regum Anglorum], ii 482 (William of Malmesbury)
5. Hugh the Chanter, History of the Church of York, pg. 126

The reference to Eadmer above is available through Google Book Search.
I examined the two pages cited by Jamie. The pages concern Pope
Calixtus II's meeting with King Henry I of England at Gisors in 1119.
However, I found no reference to kinship between the two men.

Perhaps one of the other works cited by Jamies mentions the kinship
between Pope Calixtus II and King Henry I.

Once again, thanks Jamie.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


Check out William of Malmesbury, he has a lot to say about Calixtus.
I gave you the Stubbs translation reference, Sharpe / Stevenson is Bk V
406
for Gisor then 431 onwards.
I think you can rule out the GND and I can't see anything of help in the
GR,
Oderic might say something.

Jamie


Just another thought, check out Wace, "Roman du Rou", Guy III (Gui, Guoin),
son of Reginald of Burgundy (Renaud) is mentioned. and his elder brother
William.
I can't see anything from the index on Guido Archbishop of Vienna (Calixtus
II)

Jamie

Gjest

Re: More Medieval Kinsfolk: King Henry I of England's kinsma

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 nov 2006 17:10:26

Dear Newsgroup ~

As a followup to my earlier posts, I can now report that King Henry I
of England's near kinship to Pope Calixtus II was directly addressed by
the chronicler Orderic Vitalis. Orderic wrote the following regarding
the meeting of King Henry I and Pope Calixtus II at Gisors in 1119:

"In November [1119] Pope Calixtus came into Normandy, and discussed the
restoration of peace with the king [Henry I] at Gisors. The great king
received him honourably and, falling prostrate at his feet, showed him
respect and reverence, acknowledging him to be the shepherd of the
whole Church and his own kinsman. When he had humbled himself the Pope
raised him kindly, blessed him in the name of the Lord, and gave him
the kiss of peace, after which they embraced each other joyfully."
[Reference: Marjorie Chibnall, The Ecclesiastical History of Orderic
Vitalis, 6 (1980): 282-283].

Pope Calixtus II and King Henry I of England were related in the 3rd
and 3rd degrees of kindred (or if you prefer 2nd cousins), by virtue of
their common descent from Richard II, Duke of Normandy (died 1027), as
set forth below:

1. Richard II, Duke of Normandy, died 1027.
2. Adeliza of Normandy, married Renaud I, Count of Burgundy.
3. Guillaume I, Count of Burgundy, died 1087.
4. Pope Calixtus II (Guy of Burgundy), died 1124.

1. Richard II, Duke of Normandy, died 1027.
2. Robert, Duke of Normandy, died 1035.
3. William the Conqueror, King of England, died 1087.
4. King Henry I of England, died 1135.

Special thanks go to Ginny Wagner for providing me a copy of the two
pages in question from Orderic Vitalis. Much appreciated, Ginny.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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