Sorting out the order of births in the Stanley family: a cha

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Sorting out the order of births in the Stanley family: a cha

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 okt 2006 11:04:02

Dear All

I have become aware recently of a ridiculous claim by someone calling
himself "Prince David Howe-Stanley" to be the rightful monarch of the
Isle of Man. This claim is based on his apparent belief that the
Stanleys, Earls of Derby, who were granted the lordship of the island
by Henry IV in 1406, held it not by English but by Manx law, and that,
by some twisted misapprehension of Manx succession law, gender-blind
succession prevailed - i.e. the Lordship was inherited by the eldest
child regardless of gender. (In reality, it was inherited largely by
means of male primogeniture, with further confirmatory grants by the
British crown in cases of dispute.)

I would be interested in any comments or observations on this 'claim'.
In particular, I am struck with its apparent lack of internal logic.
The claimant alleges - without providing any evidence - that he
descends from Jane Stanley, daughter of George Stanley (d 1497),
himself eldest son of Thomas, Earl of Derby and King of Man (d 1504);
he alleges that Jane was George's eldest child.

Is this known to be the case?

In terms of consistency, I wonder whether george (d 1497) was the
eldest child of the eldest child etc of the original grantee of 1406,
Sir John Stanley. Is the birth order of the following known?

(A) the children of Sir John Stanley, died 1414, the grantee of 1406.
He was succeeded by his eldest son, John the younger, but the elder Sir
John also had two daughters - perhaps one of these would have been the
gender-blind heir?

(B) the children of Sir John Stanley the younger, died 1437. He was
succeeded by his eldest son, Thomas, but there were likewise two
daughters - was either of these older than Thomas? I note that Thomas
was knighted circa 1431 (according to Roskell) and fathered a son in
circa 1435, whereas his sister Isabel's marriage contract is dated 1422
(according to PROCAT)

(C) the children of Thomas, 1st Lord Stanley, died 1459. He was
succeeded by his eldest son, Thomas, afterwards 1st Earl of Derby.
There were three daughters, Margaret, Elizabeth and Catherine. *My
personal view is that this is probably the weakest link: was Thomas,
1st Earl of Derby, younger than any of his sisters?*

(D) the children of Thomas, Earl of Derby, died 1504. His eldest son
was George (d 1497) but there was also at least one daughter, Margaret,
Lady Osbaldeston.

(E) is it known that Jane Stanley was George's first-born child?

Will, here's your chance to shine!!

MA-R

PS the website promoting these claims - which I consider worthless -
may be found here:

http://princeofmann.googlepages.com/

Gjest

Re: Sorting out the order of births in the Stanley family: a

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 okt 2006 11:25:18

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
(C) the children of Thomas, 1st Lord Stanley, died 1459. He was
succeeded by his eldest son, Thomas, afterwards 1st Earl of Derby.
There were three daughters, Margaret, Elizabeth and Catherine. *My
personal view is that this is probably the weakest link: was Thomas,
1st Earl of Derby, younger than any of his sisters?*

Here is where I think a chink may be exploited:

Thomas, 1st Lord Stanley's daughter Elizabeth married Sir Richard
Molyneux (d 1459). Their eldest son (there was also a daughter
Margaret, wife of Sir William Bulkeley) was Sir Thomas Molyneux; John
R. tells us that he was High Sheriff of Lancs in 1473 and died 12 July
1483.

Is the birthdate of Sir Thomas Molyneux known? I have seen it referred
to as "circa 1445". Is his father's IPM (c1459) available?

It could be instructive to compare his birthdate (and thus his mother's
latest birthdate, some twelve years earlier), with that of his maternal
uncle, Thomas, 1st Earl of Derby, who is apparently assigned a
birthdate of 1435.

MA-R

Leo van de Pas

Re: Sorting out the order of births in the Stanley family: a

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 27 okt 2006 13:47:31

According to Weiss Ancestral Roots 7th Edition page 25 Sir Richard Molyneux
married Elizabeth Stanley, sister of Thomas Stanley, 1st Earl of
Derby,------ before 1432. And Thomas was born about 1435.

Their eldest son Sir Thomas Molyneux no yr of birth but died 1483, he
married ca 11 July 1463

His son William Molyneux.born in 1481, If his grandparents married, say,
1430, then this william was born about 50 years later, giving about 25 years
per generation.

What I find weird is that Thomas Stanley, 1st Baron Stanley and his wife
Joan Goushill had 3 daughters and 4 sons. The 1st Earl of Derby was the
eldest son. Then you have to presume the 3 daughters were born first to make
it possible that the 2nd daughter was married 'about' 3-4-5 years before the
first son was born.
Most likely Elizabeth married _very_ young and her marriage was consumated a
long time afterwards, but still.

Joan Goushill was born circa 1401, and so was about 34 when her first son
was born, giving scope for daughters born 14-15 years earlier and still able
to have 3 more sons afterwards. But still this is guess work.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


---- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Sorting out the order of births in the Stanley family:
achallenge!


mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

(C) the children of Thomas, 1st Lord Stanley, died 1459. He was
succeeded by his eldest son, Thomas, afterwards 1st Earl of Derby.
There were three daughters, Margaret, Elizabeth and Catherine. *My
personal view is that this is probably the weakest link: was Thomas,
1st Earl of Derby, younger than any of his sisters?*

Here is where I think a chink may be exploited:

Thomas, 1st Lord Stanley's daughter Elizabeth married Sir Richard
Molyneux (d 1459). Their eldest son (there was also a daughter
Margaret, wife of Sir William Bulkeley) was Sir Thomas Molyneux; John
R. tells us that he was High Sheriff of Lancs in 1473 and died 12 July
1483.

Is the birthdate of Sir Thomas Molyneux known? I have seen it referred
to as "circa 1445". Is his father's IPM (c1459) available?

It could be instructive to compare his birthdate (and thus his mother's
latest birthdate, some twelve years earlier), with that of his maternal
uncle, Thomas, 1st Earl of Derby, who is apparently assigned a
birthdate of 1435.

MA-R


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Gjest

Re: Sorting out the order of births in the Stanley family: a

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 okt 2006 15:05:07

Leo van de Pas wrote:
According to Weiss Ancestral Roots 7th Edition page 25 Sir Richard Molyneux
married Elizabeth Stanley, sister of Thomas Stanley, 1st Earl of
Derby,------ before 1432. And Thomas was born about 1435.

Their eldest son Sir Thomas Molyneux no yr of birth but died 1483, he
married ca 11 July 1463

His son William Molyneux.born in 1481, If his grandparents married, say,
1430, then this william was born about 50 years later, giving about 25 years
per generation.

What I find weird is that Thomas Stanley, 1st Baron Stanley and his wife
Joan Goushill had 3 daughters and 4 sons. The 1st Earl of Derby was the
eldest son. Then you have to presume the 3 daughters were born first to make
it possible that the 2nd daughter was married 'about' 3-4-5 years before the
first son was born.
Most likely Elizabeth married _very_ young and her marriage was consumated a
long time afterwards, but still.

Joan Goushill was born circa 1401, and so was about 34 when her first son
was born, giving scope for daughters born 14-15 years earlier and still able
to have 3 more sons afterwards. But still this is guess work.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

Many thanks, Leo; it certainly looks as though Thomas was not the
eldest child - I will see if I can find a firmer birthdate for Thomas
Molyneux - this woud be a nail in the coffin of the 'claim'.

Regards, Michael

Brad Verity

Re: Sorting out the order of births in the Stanley family: a

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 27 okt 2006 17:13:31

Dear Michael and Leo,

Joan Goushill, Lady Stanley was returned as age 2 years and more in the
IPMs of her father taken September and October 1403, so born 1400/01.
She and her younger sister Elizabeth Goushill (born 1401/02) were both
married by 1423, when their husbands, Sir Thomas Stanley and Robert
Wingfield, along with their brother-in-law the earl of Norfolk, were
among a list of feoffees on whom new brother-in-law James Lord Berkeley
settled his estates. [Peter Fleming & Michael Wood, 'Gloucestershire's
Forgotten Battle: Nibley Green 1470' (Stroud: Tempus Publishing, 2003),
p. 38.] Both Goushill sisters may have even been married by September
1420, as neither is mentioned or provided for in the will of their
stepfather Sir Gerard Usflete, though he makes provision for their
unmarried half-sister Margaret Mowbray.

The source of the 1435 birthdate for Joan's eldest son Thomas Stanley,
1st Earl of Derby, is CP which says that he "suc. his father, 20 Feb.
1458/9, being then aged 24". So he was born 1434/35, and had to be
followed by at least three other children (he had 3 younger brothers)
before Joan hit menopause, which would have been in the early 1440s.
Joan's maternal aunt Margaret Arundel, Dame Lenthall, born 1383/85, did
not have her elder son Edmund Lenthall until 1420, when she was age
35/37, so late childbearing ran in the family, and it is certainly
possible biologically for Joan to have had all four of her sons at age
34 and after.

But if CP, or whatever its source was, misread the 1459 IPM of Thomas,
1st Lord Stanley, and the 1st Earl of Derby was actually age 34 at his
father's death, so born 1424/25, it would fit in much better with known
chronology of his parents.

Hope you can sort out the Stanleys - they are gateways for all kinds of
gentry descents from Edward I, and could use a good chronological
study.

Cheers, ------------Brad

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