A possible illegitimate grandson of King Stephen?

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A possible illegitimate grandson of King Stephen?

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 okt 2006 22:21:02

In reconstructing the ancestry of Sir Thomas Fitz Eustace (died 1318),
I was struck by the fact that his father, Eustace (died 1272) was
apparently the son of one Thomas Fitz Stephen - i.e. that the names
Stephen and Eustace ran in his ancestry.

The earliest (apparent) male-line ancestor known to me was Thomas, who
(according to Cullom) married Joan Noel circa 6 Henry II. I postulate
he would therefore have been born circa 1140 (he was still living in
1219 but dead by 1226).

The following item from A2A thickens the plot somewhat:

Northants Deeds (Northants Record Office), F (M) Charter/1-782: dated
late 12th century:

GRANT by Thomas fil.Eustachii fil.Stephani to Ralph fil.Walerandi de
Ufford for his homage, etc. and a bovate of land in Wivelistorp which
Walerand Becke held and for 100 silver marks, of all his land of
Helpiston in demesnes, homages, services, etc. and all appurtenances in
the said vill and outside (saving only free alms which the monks of
Croyland have of the said Thomas): and also, for timber, all his wood
called Haat. Rent 10sh.

That is, Thomas (?c1140 - c1220) was called "son of Eustace, son of
Stephen". It is interesting (no by no means conclusive) that his
grandfather is named in this pedigree.

I wonder, therefore, if he could have been an illegitimate son of King
Stephen's son Eustace, Count of Boulogne (c1127-1153). The chronology
is admittedly tight.

MA-R

taf

Re: A possible illegitimate grandson of King Stephen?

Legg inn av taf » 20 okt 2006 03:11:51

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
In reconstructing the ancestry of Sir Thomas Fitz Eustace (died 1318),
I was struck by the fact that his father, Eustace (died 1272) was
apparently the son of one Thomas Fitz Stephen - i.e. that the names
Stephen and Eustace ran in his ancestry.

The earliest (apparent) male-line ancestor known to me was Thomas, who
(according to Cullom) married Joan Noel circa 6 Henry II. I postulate
he would therefore have been born circa 1140 (he was still living in
1219 but dead by 1226).

The following item from A2A thickens the plot somewhat:

Northants Deeds (Northants Record Office), F (M) Charter/1-782: dated
late 12th century:

GRANT by Thomas fil.Eustachii fil.Stephani to Ralph fil.Walerandi de
Ufford for his homage, etc. and a bovate of land in Wivelistorp which
Walerand Becke held and for 100 silver marks, of all his land of
Helpiston in demesnes, homages, services, etc. and all appurtenances in
the said vill and outside (saving only free alms which the monks of
Croyland have of the said Thomas): and also, for timber, all his wood
called Haat. Rent 10sh.

That is, Thomas (?c1140 - c1220) was called "son of Eustace, son of
Stephen". It is interesting (no by no means conclusive) that his
grandfather is named in this pedigree.

I wonder, therefore, if he could have been an illegitimate son of King
Stephen's son Eustace, Count of Boulogne (c1127-1153). The chronology
is admittedly tight.

Coincidence. Another charter, dated 1177x1193 in the same collection
(relating to the same Helpiston) appears to involve the fathers of the
two men involved in the later transaction:

Northants Deeds (Northants Record Office), F(M) Charter/780 - date:
1177x1193

GRANT by Eustachius fil.Stephani, the King's chamberlain to Waleran
fil.Radulphi, of one bovate of land in Wiulestorp which Pagan brother
of Wiwac held, and one toft in Helpeston which Symon Lefrere held in
Pertenhala - also, two silver marks for the marriage of his daughter.
These lands Bustachius gave to Waleran for his homage and service, and
for his claim and right which Waleran claimed in Helpeston viz. in one
virgate of land which Ralph fil.Gaufridi had held, and Waleran shall
have no claim in the said virgate against Gaufridus fil.Gaufridi
without the consent of the said Eustachius fil.Stephani.

So It seems much more likely that Thomas was son of this Eustace Fitz
Stephen, chamberlain.

taf

Gjest

Re: A possible illegitimate grandson of King Stephen?

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 okt 2006 07:05:36

taf schrieb:

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
In reconstructing the ancestry of Sir Thomas Fitz Eustace (died 1318),
I was struck by the fact that his father, Eustace (died 1272) was
apparently the son of one Thomas Fitz Stephen - i.e. that the names
Stephen and Eustace ran in his ancestry.

The earliest (apparent) male-line ancestor known to me was Thomas, who
(according to Cullom) married Joan Noel circa 6 Henry II. I postulate
he would therefore have been born circa 1140 (he was still living in
1219 but dead by 1226).

The following item from A2A thickens the plot somewhat:

Northants Deeds (Northants Record Office), F (M) Charter/1-782: dated
late 12th century:

GRANT by Thomas fil.Eustachii fil.Stephani to Ralph fil.Walerandi de
Ufford for his homage, etc. and a bovate of land in Wivelistorp which
Walerand Becke held and for 100 silver marks, of all his land of
Helpiston in demesnes, homages, services, etc. and all appurtenances in
the said vill and outside (saving only free alms which the monks of
Croyland have of the said Thomas): and also, for timber, all his wood
called Haat. Rent 10sh.

That is, Thomas (?c1140 - c1220) was called "son of Eustace, son of
Stephen". It is interesting (no by no means conclusive) that his
grandfather is named in this pedigree.

I wonder, therefore, if he could have been an illegitimate son of King
Stephen's son Eustace, Count of Boulogne (c1127-1153). The chronology
is admittedly tight.

Coincidence. Another charter, dated 1177x1193 in the same collection
(relating to the same Helpiston) appears to involve the fathers of the
two men involved in the later transaction:

Northants Deeds (Northants Record Office), F(M) Charter/780 - date:
1177x1193

GRANT by Eustachius fil.Stephani, the King's chamberlain to Waleran
fil.Radulphi, of one bovate of land in Wiulestorp which Pagan brother
of Wiwac held, and one toft in Helpeston which Symon Lefrere held in
Pertenhala - also, two silver marks for the marriage of his daughter.
These lands Bustachius gave to Waleran for his homage and service, and
for his claim and right which Waleran claimed in Helpeston viz. in one
virgate of land which Ralph fil.Gaufridi had held, and Waleran shall
have no claim in the said virgate against Gaufridus fil.Gaufridi
without the consent of the said Eustachius fil.Stephani.

So It seems much more likely that Thomas was son of this Eustace Fitz
Stephen, chamberlain.

taf

Indeed - many thanks taf.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: A possible illegitimate grandson of King Stephen?

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 okt 2006 07:36:44

taf schrieb:

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
In reconstructing the ancestry of Sir Thomas Fitz Eustace (died 1318),
I was struck by the fact that his father, Eustace (died 1272) was
apparently the son of one Thomas Fitz Stephen - i.e. that the names
Stephen and Eustace ran in his ancestry.

The earliest (apparent) male-line ancestor known to me was Thomas, who
(according to Cullom) married Joan Noel circa 6 Henry II. I postulate
he would therefore have been born circa 1140 (he was still living in
1219 but dead by 1226).

The following item from A2A thickens the plot somewhat:

Northants Deeds (Northants Record Office), F (M) Charter/1-782: dated
late 12th century:

GRANT by Thomas fil.Eustachii fil.Stephani to Ralph fil.Walerandi de
Ufford for his homage, etc. and a bovate of land in Wivelistorp which
Walerand Becke held and for 100 silver marks, of all his land of
Helpiston in demesnes, homages, services, etc. and all appurtenances in
the said vill and outside (saving only free alms which the monks of
Croyland have of the said Thomas): and also, for timber, all his wood
called Haat. Rent 10sh.

That is, Thomas (?c1140 - c1220) was called "son of Eustace, son of
Stephen". It is interesting (no by no means conclusive) that his
grandfather is named in this pedigree.

I wonder, therefore, if he could have been an illegitimate son of King
Stephen's son Eustace, Count of Boulogne (c1127-1153). The chronology
is admittedly tight.

Coincidence. Another charter, dated 1177x1193 in the same collection
(relating to the same Helpiston) appears to involve the fathers of the
two men involved in the later transaction:

Northants Deeds (Northants Record Office), F(M) Charter/780 - date:
1177x1193

GRANT by Eustachius fil.Stephani, the King's chamberlain to Waleran
fil.Radulphi, of one bovate of land in Wiulestorp which Pagan brother
of Wiwac held, and one toft in Helpeston which Symon Lefrere held in
Pertenhala - also, two silver marks for the marriage of his daughter.
These lands Bustachius gave to Waleran for his homage and service, and
for his claim and right which Waleran claimed in Helpeston viz. in one
virgate of land which Ralph fil.Gaufridi had held, and Waleran shall
have no claim in the said virgate against Gaufridus fil.Gaufridi
without the consent of the said Eustachius fil.Stephani.

So It seems much more likely that Thomas was son of this Eustace Fitz
Stephen, chamberlain.

In fact, this ties in with a post by Alex Maxwell Findlater last year:

Albericus
|
Herbert m Emma "of Blois" fil nat
|
Herbert m Millisent, hss of Osbert the Sherriff & William, Archbishop
|
Stephen & William, Robert Treasurer York, Herbert Trsr York, Gilbert(?)

|
Ralph le Chamberlain m Matilda d&h Robert de Caux & Eustace le Chmbrln

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