This Walram IV (d. 1226) was the son of Henry III of Limburg, but past
discussions on the list have shown conflicting opinions as to who his
mother was. The traditional view seems to have been that it was Sophie
of Saabrucken, but that an earlier wife Adelheid of Henneberg may have
been chronologically more likely. Can anyone provide the current
assessment of this question?
Roger LeBlanc
Mother of Walram IV of Limburg
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Turenne
Re: Mother of Walram IV of Limburg
I am not an expert in this area so I had a look round on the computer
and also my various reference books. Wiki and the online dictionary
seem to have mixed up Walram III with W IV
so I ploughed on and the general feeling I got was that Sophie of
Saarbrucken was Walram IV's mother. I did come across a Sophia of
Lorraine however who m. Henry III, is she the same person as Sophia of
Saarbrucken? Iam more than happy to retrace my steps and give you the
references to my less than authoritative/scholastic research.
Here's one that is probably wrong:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... of+Limburg
Richard Lichten
Roger LeBlanc wrote:
and also my various reference books. Wiki and the online dictionary
seem to have mixed up Walram III with W IV
so I ploughed on and the general feeling I got was that Sophie of
Saarbrucken was Walram IV's mother. I did come across a Sophia of
Lorraine however who m. Henry III, is she the same person as Sophia of
Saarbrucken? Iam more than happy to retrace my steps and give you the
references to my less than authoritative/scholastic research.
Here's one that is probably wrong:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... of+Limburg
Richard Lichten
Roger LeBlanc wrote:
This Walram IV (d. 1226) was the son of Henry III of Limburg, but past
discussions on the list have shown conflicting opinions as to who his
mother was. The traditional view seems to have been that it was Sophie
of Saabrucken, but that an earlier wife Adelheid of Henneberg may have
been chronologically more likely. Can anyone provide the current
assessment of this question?
Roger LeBlanc
-
Turenne
Re: Mother of Walram IV of Limburg
....and another http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_III_of_Limburg
RL
Turenne wrote:
RL
Turenne wrote:
I am not an expert in this area so I had a look round on the computer
and also my various reference books. Wiki and the online dictionary
seem to have mixed up Walram III with W IV
so I ploughed on and the general feeling I got was that Sophie of
Saarbrucken was Walram IV's mother. I did come across a Sophia of
Lorraine however who m. Henry III, is she the same person as Sophia of
Saarbrucken? Iam more than happy to retrace my steps and give you the
references to my less than authoritative/scholastic research.
Here's one that is probably wrong:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... of+Limburg
Richard Lichten
Roger LeBlanc wrote:
This Walram IV (d. 1226) was the son of Henry III of Limburg, but past
discussions on the list have shown conflicting opinions as to who his
mother was. The traditional view seems to have been that it was Sophie
of Saabrucken, but that an earlier wife Adelheid of Henneberg may have
been chronologically more likely. Can anyone provide the current
assessment of this question?
Roger LeBlanc
-
Turenne
Re: Mother of Walram IV of Limburg
Roger, did you check those two references, are they incorrrect? If so
you are probably the chap to correct them.
Richard L
Roger LeBlanc wrote:
you are probably the chap to correct them.
Richard L
Roger LeBlanc wrote:
Thank you for these links Richard. There is a lot of useful information
here.
I've also found the thread that discussed this question. It was "Dukes
of Limburg" from May 2000. This is where it was suggested it was
chronologically unlikely for Sophie to have been Walram's mother. The
discussion did not seem to be conclusive however.
Roger LeBlanc
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Mother of Walram IV of Limburg
Thank you for these links Richard. There is a lot of useful information
here.
I've also found the thread that discussed this question. It was "Dukes
of Limburg" from May 2000. This is where it was suggested it was
chronologically unlikely for Sophie to have been Walram's mother. The
discussion did not seem to be conclusive however.
Roger LeBlanc
here.
I've also found the thread that discussed this question. It was "Dukes
of Limburg" from May 2000. This is where it was suggested it was
chronologically unlikely for Sophie to have been Walram's mother. The
discussion did not seem to be conclusive however.
Roger LeBlanc
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Mother of Walram IV of Limburg
Yes, sorry. I meant to say that the links you posted were indeed for the
people I had in mind. In fact I don't know whether this Walram/Waleran
should be numbered III or IV, so I may be mistaken on that count. As far
as the biographical material, I really can't comment. It is interesting
to note that if he (Walram) took part in the third crusade, he must have
been quite young, perhaps in his teens?
Roger LeBlanc
Turenne wrote:
people I had in mind. In fact I don't know whether this Walram/Waleran
should be numbered III or IV, so I may be mistaken on that count. As far
as the biographical material, I really can't comment. It is interesting
to note that if he (Walram) took part in the third crusade, he must have
been quite young, perhaps in his teens?
Roger LeBlanc
Turenne wrote:
Roger, did you check those two references, are they incorrrect? If so
you are probably the chap to correct them.
Richard L
Roger LeBlanc wrote:
Thank you for these links Richard. There is a lot of useful information
here.
I've also found the thread that discussed this question. It was "Dukes
of Limburg" from May 2000. This is where it was suggested it was
chronologically unlikely for Sophie to have been Walram's mother. The
discussion did not seem to be conclusive however.
Roger LeBlanc
-
Birds
Re: Mother of Walram IV of Limburg
Hello Roger,
This controversy of one or two marriages for duke Henry III of Limburg
comes from the interpretation that in 1178 the two eldest sons (alive)
Henry and Walram must have been of age (volljärig) thus at least 14
years old. The next brother Simon is known to have been born in 1177
(he was 16 years when chosen elect of Lutich in oct. 1193) and with
regards to his name ought to be seen as the son of Sophia of
Saarbrücken. Therefore the thought arose that father must have married
twice.
In the discussion between Severin Corsten and T. Klaversma on the
subject of Wassenberg and its 12th - early 13th century possessors the
latter pointed to a - and in time very near - example that showed that
the age limit of 14 years need not necessarily be applied. I have
mentioned this option in two other strings.
"Heinrich and Walram could have been fourteen but need not have been.
Their minimal age at that time could have been at least seven years.
Seven being the minimal age when children could confirm actions when
their father, mother or gardian made deeds and gifts or made other
decisions important for them. Drs. T. Klaversma points out that this
fase started when the children were no longer "infans", so minimaly
seven years of age, the time when they came to the years of
distinction/discretion.
The Dutchman Klaversma - in a dicussion with the German Severin Corsten
- points to a charter of 1173 in which duke Godfried III of Brabant and
his sons Hendrik and Albert made a memorial donation for their wife and
mother. As it is known that Hendrik was born in 1165 he could have been
eight and his brother seven years at most. This and more can be read in
his paper "Wassenberg en de hertogen van Limburg in de twaalfde eeuw",
in: De Maasgouw jrg. CVII (1988), 41-47."
The occasion in 1178 was the transfer of the advowson of three churches
to the abby of Rolduc by duke Henry III with the consent of his wife
Sophia and his sons Henry and Walram. In 1178 the younger son Walram
was therefore minimal 7 years of age, thus at least born in 1171. The
time gap between 1171 and 1176/1177 is not that much to be explained by
two marriages. Eldest son Henry is next seen in 1188 and Walram in
1189. These later mentionings point as well to a younger age than
earlier presumed in 1178.
The literature that I am aware of does not mention a earlier wife than
Sophia of Saarbrücken so I'm not aware of the argumentation on the
option Adelheid of Henneberg.
Hans Vogels
Roger LeBlanc schreef:
This controversy of one or two marriages for duke Henry III of Limburg
comes from the interpretation that in 1178 the two eldest sons (alive)
Henry and Walram must have been of age (volljärig) thus at least 14
years old. The next brother Simon is known to have been born in 1177
(he was 16 years when chosen elect of Lutich in oct. 1193) and with
regards to his name ought to be seen as the son of Sophia of
Saarbrücken. Therefore the thought arose that father must have married
twice.
In the discussion between Severin Corsten and T. Klaversma on the
subject of Wassenberg and its 12th - early 13th century possessors the
latter pointed to a - and in time very near - example that showed that
the age limit of 14 years need not necessarily be applied. I have
mentioned this option in two other strings.
"Heinrich and Walram could have been fourteen but need not have been.
Their minimal age at that time could have been at least seven years.
Seven being the minimal age when children could confirm actions when
their father, mother or gardian made deeds and gifts or made other
decisions important for them. Drs. T. Klaversma points out that this
fase started when the children were no longer "infans", so minimaly
seven years of age, the time when they came to the years of
distinction/discretion.
The Dutchman Klaversma - in a dicussion with the German Severin Corsten
- points to a charter of 1173 in which duke Godfried III of Brabant and
his sons Hendrik and Albert made a memorial donation for their wife and
mother. As it is known that Hendrik was born in 1165 he could have been
eight and his brother seven years at most. This and more can be read in
his paper "Wassenberg en de hertogen van Limburg in de twaalfde eeuw",
in: De Maasgouw jrg. CVII (1988), 41-47."
The occasion in 1178 was the transfer of the advowson of three churches
to the abby of Rolduc by duke Henry III with the consent of his wife
Sophia and his sons Henry and Walram. In 1178 the younger son Walram
was therefore minimal 7 years of age, thus at least born in 1171. The
time gap between 1171 and 1176/1177 is not that much to be explained by
two marriages. Eldest son Henry is next seen in 1188 and Walram in
1189. These later mentionings point as well to a younger age than
earlier presumed in 1178.
The literature that I am aware of does not mention a earlier wife than
Sophia of Saarbrücken so I'm not aware of the argumentation on the
option Adelheid of Henneberg.
Hans Vogels
Roger LeBlanc schreef:
Thank you for these links Richard. There is a lot of useful information
here.
I've also found the thread that discussed this question. It was "Dukes
of Limburg" from May 2000. This is where it was suggested it was
chronologically unlikely for Sophie to have been Walram's mother. The
discussion did not seem to be conclusive however.
Roger LeBlanc
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Mother of Walram IV of Limburg
Thanks very much for the detailed reply Hans. Lots of useful
information. It is much appreciated.
Roger LeBlanc
information. It is much appreciated.
Roger LeBlanc