Henry Project - new pages: Flanders
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Stewart Baldwin
Henry Project - new pages: Flanders
New pages have just been uploaded for the line of the counts of
Flanders from Baldwin I to Matilda of Flanders, including pages for
Mathilde von Sachsen (wife of Baldwin III) and her second husband
Godefroid, count of Verdun. Five of these pages (marked with *) are
major revisions of pages uploaded in 2002, and five are new. The page
on Baldwin I is a major update to the item posted on the newsgroup
earlier this year. At that time I did not yet have copies of some of
the important sources, so that account was only a very preliminary
one. The pages are:
Baldwin I of Flanders.
Baldwin II of Flanders.*
Arnulf I of Flanders.*
Baldwin III of Flanders.*
Arnulf II of Flanders.*
Baldwin IV of Flanders.
Baldwin V of Flanders.
Matilda of Flanders.
Mathilde of Saxony.*
Godefroid of Verdun.
As usual, comments are welcome.
The URL for the index page is:
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/henry.htm
Stewart Baldwin
Flanders from Baldwin I to Matilda of Flanders, including pages for
Mathilde von Sachsen (wife of Baldwin III) and her second husband
Godefroid, count of Verdun. Five of these pages (marked with *) are
major revisions of pages uploaded in 2002, and five are new. The page
on Baldwin I is a major update to the item posted on the newsgroup
earlier this year. At that time I did not yet have copies of some of
the important sources, so that account was only a very preliminary
one. The pages are:
Baldwin I of Flanders.
Baldwin II of Flanders.*
Arnulf I of Flanders.*
Baldwin III of Flanders.*
Arnulf II of Flanders.*
Baldwin IV of Flanders.
Baldwin V of Flanders.
Matilda of Flanders.
Mathilde of Saxony.*
Godefroid of Verdun.
As usual, comments are welcome.
The URL for the index page is:
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/henry.htm
Stewart Baldwin
-
Gjest
Re: Henry Project - new pages: Flanders
Stewart Baldwin schrieb:
Many thanks, Stewart; I shall enjoy reading these.
Best wishes, Michael
New pages have just been uploaded for the line of the counts of
Flanders from Baldwin I to Matilda of Flanders, including pages for
Mathilde von Sachsen (wife of Baldwin III) and her second husband
Godefroid, count of Verdun.
Many thanks, Stewart; I shall enjoy reading these.
Best wishes, Michael
-
taf
Re: Henry Project - new pages: Flanders
Stewart Baldwin wrote:
I note that on the Baldwin IV page you have left the paternity of
Otgiva uncertain, but on the Judith of Flanders page there are
arguments made based on her precise relationship to Welf. One or the
other of these needs some adjustment.
taf
New pages have just been uploaded for the line of the counts of
Flanders from Baldwin I to Matilda of Flanders, including pages for
Mathilde von Sachsen (wife of Baldwin III) and her second husband
Godefroid, count of Verdun.
Baldwin IV of Flanders.
As usual, comments are welcome.
I note that on the Baldwin IV page you have left the paternity of
Otgiva uncertain, but on the Judith of Flanders page there are
arguments made based on her precise relationship to Welf. One or the
other of these needs some adjustment.
taf
-
Birds
Re: Henry Project - new pages: Flanders
I note that you forgot to update your Home page (Last updated 27 May
2002).
Hans Vogels
Stewart Baldwin schreef:
2002).
Hans Vogels
Stewart Baldwin schreef:
New pages have just been uploaded for the line of the counts of
Flanders from Baldwin I to Matilda of Flanders, including pages for
Mathilde von Sachsen (wife of Baldwin III) and her second husband
Godefroid, count of Verdun. Five of these pages (marked with *) are
major revisions of pages uploaded in 2002, and five are new. The page
on Baldwin I is a major update to the item posted on the newsgroup
earlier this year. At that time I did not yet have copies of some of
the important sources, so that account was only a very preliminary
one. The pages are:
Baldwin I of Flanders.
Baldwin II of Flanders.*
Arnulf I of Flanders.*
Baldwin III of Flanders.*
Arnulf II of Flanders.*
Baldwin IV of Flanders.
Baldwin V of Flanders.
Matilda of Flanders.
Mathilde of Saxony.*
Godefroid of Verdun.
As usual, comments are welcome.
The URL for the index page is:
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/henry.htm
Stewart Baldwin
-
Birds
Re: Henry Project - new pages: Flanders
Stewart,
Compliments to the work provided. It must have seem "monnikenwerk" to
you, though I doubt that the dictionary translation "tedious drudgery"
does full credit to the exellent work done. You state that comments are
welcome so I have put some thoughts to word.
Baldwin II of Flanders died in 918 and was succeeded by his sons Arnulf
I as count of Flanders, and Adalolf as count of Boulogne and Ternois,
(lay-) abbot of St. Bertin.
Æthelweard the chronicler names Adalolf als the elder son. Count
Adalolf died 933, was married and had children still minor. Brother
Arnulf then took over Boulogne and Ternois and became abbot of St.
Bertin. In the next year he married Adela of Vermandois and started a
family himself. No previous marriage of Arnulf is recorded though it is
presumed as a possibility or even likelyhood. His attested children are
from his marriage with Adela.
Arnulf looks the younger brother who ubsurbs the rights and power of
the minor children of a deceased elder brother instead of being the
trusted gardian. In later years we have another example of this in the
person of Robert the Frisian.
Questions:
1. Is Folcwine a more trusted chronicler then Aethelweard? Folcwine
(middle 10th century) mentions Arnulf being the elder son. Witger
(951/959) just states that there were two sons of whom one was called
Arnulf and the other Adalolf.
2. Could Folcwine not have been influenced through the fact that as
Arnulf succeded his father in Flanders he must have been the elder son?
3. Is it not strange that in that time period an elder brother Arnulf
waited with marrying until 934, shortly afther his "younger" brother
died leaving infants. Arnulf succeeded his father in 918 so had plenty
of time to produce offspring.
4. Could it not be that Adalolf was in fact the elder son?
5. What was the relation or position of Folcwine to count Arnulf? Was
the count of the comital family his patron?
The wording of Witger look like having an echo in later years [Gesta
Treverorum].
"Witger does not give her name, but states that she (Ælfthryth) was
the most noble descendant of kings beyond the sea,"
"He [Egbert of Holland] sprang from Britain, with father count
Theoderic [Dirk] and mother Hildegarde by name, [who were] foremost
among the richness and nobility of the English, "
A argument for bishop Egberts mother Hildegard being a possible
daughter of count Arnulf from a previous marriage is based on the rule
that bishops had to be of canonical age (30 years), thus putting his
birth in 947 or earlier. With Egbert being an younger brother (to
Arnulf of Holland) this would place the birth of Hildegard around 930
at latest. Of count Arnulf is no earlier marriage known. His brother
count Adalolf (+ 933) was married and had at least two legimate sons
who probably were raised at the court of uncle Arnulf.
6. Could Hildegard not have been a daughter of count Adalolf? He was
married and had children and chronologically she would fit as a
possible daughter.
Though there is no doubt about the proper (canonical) age of 30 for
archbishops, I think that to much weight is given to state the fact
that this age should be regarded as a must. In the 10th century there
are several examples that illustrate deviations from the rule:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... op+egbert&
I can add: William of Saxony, a bastard son of Otto I. William was
appointed archbishop of Mainz in 954. Otto I himself was born 23
november 912. His son William is said to have been been born before his
marriage in autumn 929. Lately I mentioned a difference in opinion
between researchers on the birth of bishop Adalbero of Metz (929-962):
Hlawitschka 900-905, most likely 905; K. Wichmann around 900; H. Renn
ca. 904; M. Parisse about 902-905. See:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... ng=d&hl=nl
As I wrote before, some periods have peculiar customs. Thus
generalisations are not always appropriate. They can paint a one-sided
picture to the superficial reader (or ancestor shopper). The intention
of the Henry Project was to provide a clear and trustworthy database.
Hans Vogels
Stewart Baldwin schreef:
Compliments to the work provided. It must have seem "monnikenwerk" to
you, though I doubt that the dictionary translation "tedious drudgery"
does full credit to the exellent work done. You state that comments are
welcome so I have put some thoughts to word.
Baldwin II of Flanders died in 918 and was succeeded by his sons Arnulf
I as count of Flanders, and Adalolf as count of Boulogne and Ternois,
(lay-) abbot of St. Bertin.
Æthelweard the chronicler names Adalolf als the elder son. Count
Adalolf died 933, was married and had children still minor. Brother
Arnulf then took over Boulogne and Ternois and became abbot of St.
Bertin. In the next year he married Adela of Vermandois and started a
family himself. No previous marriage of Arnulf is recorded though it is
presumed as a possibility or even likelyhood. His attested children are
from his marriage with Adela.
Arnulf looks the younger brother who ubsurbs the rights and power of
the minor children of a deceased elder brother instead of being the
trusted gardian. In later years we have another example of this in the
person of Robert the Frisian.
Questions:
1. Is Folcwine a more trusted chronicler then Aethelweard? Folcwine
(middle 10th century) mentions Arnulf being the elder son. Witger
(951/959) just states that there were two sons of whom one was called
Arnulf and the other Adalolf.
2. Could Folcwine not have been influenced through the fact that as
Arnulf succeded his father in Flanders he must have been the elder son?
3. Is it not strange that in that time period an elder brother Arnulf
waited with marrying until 934, shortly afther his "younger" brother
died leaving infants. Arnulf succeeded his father in 918 so had plenty
of time to produce offspring.
4. Could it not be that Adalolf was in fact the elder son?
5. What was the relation or position of Folcwine to count Arnulf? Was
the count of the comital family his patron?
The wording of Witger look like having an echo in later years [Gesta
Treverorum].
"Witger does not give her name, but states that she (Ælfthryth) was
the most noble descendant of kings beyond the sea,"
"He [Egbert of Holland] sprang from Britain, with father count
Theoderic [Dirk] and mother Hildegarde by name, [who were] foremost
among the richness and nobility of the English, "
A argument for bishop Egberts mother Hildegard being a possible
daughter of count Arnulf from a previous marriage is based on the rule
that bishops had to be of canonical age (30 years), thus putting his
birth in 947 or earlier. With Egbert being an younger brother (to
Arnulf of Holland) this would place the birth of Hildegard around 930
at latest. Of count Arnulf is no earlier marriage known. His brother
count Adalolf (+ 933) was married and had at least two legimate sons
who probably were raised at the court of uncle Arnulf.
6. Could Hildegard not have been a daughter of count Adalolf? He was
married and had children and chronologically she would fit as a
possible daughter.
Though there is no doubt about the proper (canonical) age of 30 for
archbishops, I think that to much weight is given to state the fact
that this age should be regarded as a must. In the 10th century there
are several examples that illustrate deviations from the rule:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... op+egbert&
I can add: William of Saxony, a bastard son of Otto I. William was
appointed archbishop of Mainz in 954. Otto I himself was born 23
november 912. His son William is said to have been been born before his
marriage in autumn 929. Lately I mentioned a difference in opinion
between researchers on the birth of bishop Adalbero of Metz (929-962):
Hlawitschka 900-905, most likely 905; K. Wichmann around 900; H. Renn
ca. 904; M. Parisse about 902-905. See:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... ng=d&hl=nl
As I wrote before, some periods have peculiar customs. Thus
generalisations are not always appropriate. They can paint a one-sided
picture to the superficial reader (or ancestor shopper). The intention
of the Henry Project was to provide a clear and trustworthy database.
Hans Vogels
Stewart Baldwin schreef:
New pages have just been uploaded for the line of the counts of
Flanders from Baldwin I to Matilda of Flanders, including pages for
Mathilde von Sachsen (wife of Baldwin III) and her second husband
Godefroid, count of Verdun. Five of these pages (marked with *) are
major revisions of pages uploaded in 2002, and five are new. The page
on Baldwin I is a major update to the item posted on the newsgroup
earlier this year. At that time I did not yet have copies of some of
the important sources, so that account was only a very preliminary
one. The pages are:
Baldwin I of Flanders.
Baldwin II of Flanders.*
Arnulf I of Flanders.*
Baldwin III of Flanders.*
Arnulf II of Flanders.*
Baldwin IV of Flanders.
Baldwin V of Flanders.
Matilda of Flanders.
Mathilde of Saxony.*
Godefroid of Verdun.
As usual, comments are welcome.
The URL for the index page is:
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/henry.htm
Stewart Baldwin
-
Birds
Re: Henry Project - new pages: Flanders
The proper links should be:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... rowse_frm/
thread/5840e1775716acc8?scoring=d&q=bishop+egbert&
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... rowse_frm/
thread/a257712061e2d28b?scoring=d&hl=nl
Hans Vogels
Birds schreef:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... rowse_frm/
thread/5840e1775716acc8?scoring=d&q=bishop+egbert&
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... rowse_frm/
thread/a257712061e2d28b?scoring=d&hl=nl
Hans Vogels
Birds schreef:
Stewart,
Compliments to the work provided. It must have seem "monnikenwerk" to
you, though I doubt that the dictionary translation "tedious drudgery"
does full credit to the exellent work done. You state that comments are
welcome so I have put some thoughts to word.
Baldwin II of Flanders died in 918 and was succeeded by his sons Arnulf
I as count of Flanders, and Adalolf as count of Boulogne and Ternois,
(lay-) abbot of St. Bertin.
Æthelweard the chronicler names Adalolf als the elder son. Count
Adalolf died 933, was married and had children still minor. Brother
Arnulf then took over Boulogne and Ternois and became abbot of St.
Bertin. In the next year he married Adela of Vermandois and started a
family himself. No previous marriage of Arnulf is recorded though it is
presumed as a possibility or even likelyhood. His attested children are
from his marriage with Adela.
Arnulf looks the younger brother who ubsurbs the rights and power of
the minor children of a deceased elder brother instead of being the
trusted gardian. In later years we have another example of this in the
person of Robert the Frisian.
Questions:
1. Is Folcwine a more trusted chronicler then Aethelweard? Folcwine
(middle 10th century) mentions Arnulf being the elder son. Witger
(951/959) just states that there were two sons of whom one was called
Arnulf and the other Adalolf.
2. Could Folcwine not have been influenced through the fact that as
Arnulf succeded his father in Flanders he must have been the elder son?
3. Is it not strange that in that time period an elder brother Arnulf
waited with marrying until 934, shortly afther his "younger" brother
died leaving infants. Arnulf succeeded his father in 918 so had plenty
of time to produce offspring.
4. Could it not be that Adalolf was in fact the elder son?
5. What was the relation or position of Folcwine to count Arnulf? Was
the count of the comital family his patron?
The wording of Witger look like having an echo in later years [Gesta
Treverorum].
"Witger does not give her name, but states that she (Ælfthryth) was
the most noble descendant of kings beyond the sea,"
"He [Egbert of Holland] sprang from Britain, with father count
Theoderic [Dirk] and mother Hildegarde by name, [who were] foremost
among the richness and nobility of the English, "
A argument for bishop Egberts mother Hildegard being a possible
daughter of count Arnulf from a previous marriage is based on the rule
that bishops had to be of canonical age (30 years), thus putting his
birth in 947 or earlier. With Egbert being an younger brother (to
Arnulf of Holland) this would place the birth of Hildegard around 930
at latest. Of count Arnulf is no earlier marriage known. His brother
count Adalolf (+ 933) was married and had at least two legimate sons
who probably were raised at the court of uncle Arnulf.
6. Could Hildegard not have been a daughter of count Adalolf? He was
married and had children and chronologically she would fit as a
possible daughter.
Though there is no doubt about the proper (canonical) age of 30 for
archbishops, I think that to much weight is given to state the fact
that this age should be regarded as a must. In the 10th century there
are several examples that illustrate deviations from the rule:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... op+egbert&
I can add: William of Saxony, a bastard son of Otto I. William was
appointed archbishop of Mainz in 954. Otto I himself was born 23
november 912. His son William is said to have been been born before his
marriage in autumn 929. Lately I mentioned a difference in opinion
between researchers on the birth of bishop Adalbero of Metz (929-962):
Hlawitschka 900-905, most likely 905; K. Wichmann around 900; H. Renn
ca. 904; M. Parisse about 902-905. See:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... ng=d&hl=nl
As I wrote before, some periods have peculiar customs. Thus
generalisations are not always appropriate. They can paint a one-sided
picture to the superficial reader (or ancestor shopper). The intention
of the Henry Project was to provide a clear and trustworthy database.
Hans Vogels
Stewart Baldwin schreef:
New pages have just been uploaded for the line of the counts of
Flanders from Baldwin I to Matilda of Flanders, including pages for
Mathilde von Sachsen (wife of Baldwin III) and her second husband
Godefroid, count of Verdun. Five of these pages (marked with *) are
major revisions of pages uploaded in 2002, and five are new. The page
on Baldwin I is a major update to the item posted on the newsgroup
earlier this year. At that time I did not yet have copies of some of
the important sources, so that account was only a very preliminary
one. The pages are:
Baldwin I of Flanders.
Baldwin II of Flanders.*
Arnulf I of Flanders.*
Baldwin III of Flanders.*
Arnulf II of Flanders.*
Baldwin IV of Flanders.
Baldwin V of Flanders.
Matilda of Flanders.
Mathilde of Saxony.*
Godefroid of Verdun.
As usual, comments are welcome.
The URL for the index page is:
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/henry.htm
Stewart Baldwin
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Henry Project - new pages: Flanders
For myself, I think this speculation on the birth order of the two
brothers is really very appealing. It has seemed to me chronologically
strained to force Arnulf's year of birth earlier than that of Adalolf.
The points made by Hans regarding the marriages/families of the two
brothers are also very persuasive.
I am hoping to see this discussion expanded on. It would be interesting
to see the arguments for and against this speculation. Many thanks to
Stewart Baldwin for presenting these new pages.
Roger LeBlanc
brothers is really very appealing. It has seemed to me chronologically
strained to force Arnulf's year of birth earlier than that of Adalolf.
The points made by Hans regarding the marriages/families of the two
brothers are also very persuasive.
I am hoping to see this discussion expanded on. It would be interesting
to see the arguments for and against this speculation. Many thanks to
Stewart Baldwin for presenting these new pages.
Roger LeBlanc
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Henry Project - new pages: Flanders
Comments interspersed:
"Birds" <h.vogels6@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:1160728967.670089.54040@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Stewart,
The trouble with this is that Æthelweard does not explicitly name Adalolf as
the older brother of Arnulf in the first place - he simply named them both
with Adalolf coming before Arnulf, in a prologue addressed to his distant
cousin Abbess Matilda of Essen. This is not represented by the author as an
accurate history of the comital family, but is rather merely an outline of
their common relatives in which Æthelweard admittedly runs out of knowledge
about the last person mentioned, "due to distance and the obstacle of
passing time" (tam pro extenso spatio quam per obruptionem quodam temporum).
Folcuin on the other hand was writing about magnates in his own place and
just before his own time, and was well placed to know the details as he
lived at Saint-Bertin during the abbacy of Hildebrand, who was a nephew of
Arnulf and Adalolf. Folcuin definitely stated that Arnulf was the first
born, and had no comprehensible motive for doing this when it would surely
be known to his readers as a deliberate falsehood.
It is more plausioble that Æthelweard was influenced by the name of Adalolf
matching that of his maternal grandfather, as he is describing the
relationship through his relative Ælfthyth, the mother of the brothers in
question.
There are plenty of examples of counts who did not marry until aged in their
30s, 40s or even 50s, whether or not they had brothers and nephews. In this
case, Arnulf had one of Adalolf's legitimate sons killed for disloyalty, and
there is no hint in the sources that he had usurped the rights of his
brother or nephews.
Folcuin by his own account was a descendant of Charles Martel, and
consequently a distant relative of Arnulf and Adalolf. He was raised at
Saint-Bertin and lived there until late 965 when he was appointed abbot of
Lobbes.
This has been discussed before - Hildegard was not mentioned along with the
relatives of Arnulf's daughter Liutgard in the confraternity book of
Reichenau, and there is no countervailing authority to place her in this
family, only speculation based on onomastics.
There are many examples of powerful lords obtaining bishoprics for sons or
brothers who were not yet old enough to qualify, but proven instances of
this represent only a tiny fraction of episcopal appointments. (They are in
any case probably not as frequent as supposed - when a predecessor
disappears from the record an assumption is sometimes made that he must have
been dead when there is no other warrant for this than the silence of
sources.) Actual statements that a man was consecrated under the age of 30
are fairly rare at the time in question: it is safer to presume that
elections were regular in this respect if nothing is recorded to the
contrary. This is not prescriptive, as there certainly were exceptions, but
quoting any number of known cases can prove nothing to establish an unknown
one.
Peter Stewart
"Birds" <h.vogels6@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:1160728967.670089.54040@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Stewart,
Compliments to the work provided. It must have seem "monnikenwerk"
to you, though I doubt that the dictionary translation "tedious drudgery"
does full credit to the exellent work done. You state that comments are
welcome so I have put some thoughts to word.
Baldwin II of Flanders died in 918 and was succeeded by his sons Arnulf
I as count of Flanders, and Adalolf as count of Boulogne and Ternois,
(lay-) abbot of St. Bertin.
Æthelweard the chronicler names Adalolf als the elder son. Count
Adalolf died 933, was married and had children still minor. Brother
Arnulf then took over Boulogne and Ternois and became abbot of St.
Bertin. In the next year he married Adela of Vermandois and started a
family himself. No previous marriage of Arnulf is recorded though it is
presumed as a possibility or even likelyhood. His attested children are
from his marriage with Adela.
Arnulf looks the younger brother who ubsurbs the rights and power of
the minor children of a deceased elder brother instead of being the
trusted gardian. In later years we have another example of this in the
person of Robert the Frisian.
Questions:
1. Is Folcwine a more trusted chronicler then Aethelweard? Folcwine
(middle 10th century) mentions Arnulf being the elder son. Witger
(951/959) just states that there were two sons of whom one was called
Arnulf and the other Adalolf.
The trouble with this is that Æthelweard does not explicitly name Adalolf as
the older brother of Arnulf in the first place - he simply named them both
with Adalolf coming before Arnulf, in a prologue addressed to his distant
cousin Abbess Matilda of Essen. This is not represented by the author as an
accurate history of the comital family, but is rather merely an outline of
their common relatives in which Æthelweard admittedly runs out of knowledge
about the last person mentioned, "due to distance and the obstacle of
passing time" (tam pro extenso spatio quam per obruptionem quodam temporum).
Folcuin on the other hand was writing about magnates in his own place and
just before his own time, and was well placed to know the details as he
lived at Saint-Bertin during the abbacy of Hildebrand, who was a nephew of
Arnulf and Adalolf. Folcuin definitely stated that Arnulf was the first
born, and had no comprehensible motive for doing this when it would surely
be known to his readers as a deliberate falsehood.
2. Could Folcwine not have been influenced through the fact that as
Arnulf succeded his father in Flanders he must have been the elder son?
3. Is it not strange that in that time period an elder brother Arnulf
waited with marrying until 934, shortly afther his "younger" brother
died leaving infants. Arnulf succeeded his father in 918 so had plenty
of time to produce offspring.
It is more plausioble that Æthelweard was influenced by the name of Adalolf
matching that of his maternal grandfather, as he is describing the
relationship through his relative Ælfthyth, the mother of the brothers in
question.
4. Could it not be that Adalolf was in fact the elder son?
There are plenty of examples of counts who did not marry until aged in their
30s, 40s or even 50s, whether or not they had brothers and nephews. In this
case, Arnulf had one of Adalolf's legitimate sons killed for disloyalty, and
there is no hint in the sources that he had usurped the rights of his
brother or nephews.
5. What was the relation or position of Folcwine to count Arnulf? Was
the count of the comital family his patron?
Folcuin by his own account was a descendant of Charles Martel, and
consequently a distant relative of Arnulf and Adalolf. He was raised at
Saint-Bertin and lived there until late 965 when he was appointed abbot of
Lobbes.
The wording of Witger look like having an echo in later years [Gesta
Treverorum].
"Witger does not give her name, but states that she (Ælfthryth) was
the most noble descendant of kings beyond the sea,"
"He [Egbert of Holland] sprang from Britain, with father count
Theoderic [Dirk] and mother Hildegarde by name, [who were] foremost
among the richness and nobility of the English, "
A argument for bishop Egberts mother Hildegard being a possible
daughter of count Arnulf from a previous marriage is based on the rule
that bishops had to be of canonical age (30 years), thus putting his
birth in 947 or earlier. With Egbert being an younger brother (to
Arnulf of Holland) this would place the birth of Hildegard around 930
at latest. Of count Arnulf is no earlier marriage known. His brother
count Adalolf (+ 933) was married and had at least two legimate sons
who probably were raised at the court of uncle Arnulf.
6. Could Hildegard not have been a daughter of count Adalolf? He was
married and had children and chronologically she would fit as a
possible daughter.
This has been discussed before - Hildegard was not mentioned along with the
relatives of Arnulf's daughter Liutgard in the confraternity book of
Reichenau, and there is no countervailing authority to place her in this
family, only speculation based on onomastics.
Though there is no doubt about the proper (canonical) age of 30 for
archbishops, I think that to much weight is given to state the fact
that this age should be regarded as a must. In the 10th century there
are several examples that illustrate deviations from the rule:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... op+egbert&
I can add: William of Saxony, a bastard son of Otto I. William was
appointed archbishop of Mainz in 954. Otto I himself was born 23
november 912. His son William is said to have been been born before his
marriage in autumn 929. Lately I mentioned a difference in opinion
between researchers on the birth of bishop Adalbero of Metz (929-962):
Hlawitschka 900-905, most likely 905; K. Wichmann around 900; H. Renn
ca. 904; M. Parisse about 902-905. See:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... ng=d&hl=nl
As I wrote before, some periods have peculiar customs. Thus
generalisations are not always appropriate. They can paint a one-sided
picture to the superficial reader (or ancestor shopper). The intention
of the Henry Project was to provide a clear and trustworthy database.
There are many examples of powerful lords obtaining bishoprics for sons or
brothers who were not yet old enough to qualify, but proven instances of
this represent only a tiny fraction of episcopal appointments. (They are in
any case probably not as frequent as supposed - when a predecessor
disappears from the record an assumption is sometimes made that he must have
been dead when there is no other warrant for this than the silence of
sources.) Actual statements that a man was consecrated under the age of 30
are fairly rare at the time in question: it is safer to presume that
elections were regular in this respect if nothing is recorded to the
contrary. This is not prescriptive, as there certainly were exceptions, but
quoting any number of known cases can prove nothing to establish an unknown
one.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Baldwin I page [was Re: Henry Project - new pages: Flanders]
I can't remember if this point was discussed before:-
The note under "Place of Death" could give the impression that a medieval
source is being reported, as follows: "A marginal addition to chapter 88 of
Folcwine's history states that Baldwin died after having spent some time as
a monk at Saint-Bertin and that his body was buried at St. Bertin (Sithiu),
but that his heart and intestines were removed to St. Peter's in Ghent [MGH
SS 13: 623]".
However, this marginal addition was written in the early 16th century by
Alard Tassart, a monk at Saint-Bertin abbey, and it is not accurate in the
main verifiable detail - Baldwin's death is placed in 875 instead of 879.
Even if Tassart was correct about the division of Baldwin's remains, he did
not specify when this took place and it may have been after the annals at
variance were compiled. The explanation suggested by Grierson is more
convincing to me.
A person was normally held to be buried where his/her body would arise at
the resurrection of the dead, not where some of the entrails or bits of the
skeleton might happen to be (for example, the scattered bones of a saint
held as relics), so that two of Baldwin's organs would not have justified
the annalist of St Peter's in claiming that the count himself was interred
in that abbey.
Also on this page, the death of Baldwin I's son Raoul is correctly dated 28
June 896 in the heading, but in the text below it is given on 17 June. Karl
Werner gave 17 June, without citing a source for the date, but the annals of
St Peter's definitely state "Rodulfus comes interficitur IV kal. Iulii"
(Count Raoul was killed on 28 June).
Peter Stewart
The note under "Place of Death" could give the impression that a medieval
source is being reported, as follows: "A marginal addition to chapter 88 of
Folcwine's history states that Baldwin died after having spent some time as
a monk at Saint-Bertin and that his body was buried at St. Bertin (Sithiu),
but that his heart and intestines were removed to St. Peter's in Ghent [MGH
SS 13: 623]".
However, this marginal addition was written in the early 16th century by
Alard Tassart, a monk at Saint-Bertin abbey, and it is not accurate in the
main verifiable detail - Baldwin's death is placed in 875 instead of 879.
Even if Tassart was correct about the division of Baldwin's remains, he did
not specify when this took place and it may have been after the annals at
variance were compiled. The explanation suggested by Grierson is more
convincing to me.
A person was normally held to be buried where his/her body would arise at
the resurrection of the dead, not where some of the entrails or bits of the
skeleton might happen to be (for example, the scattered bones of a saint
held as relics), so that two of Baldwin's organs would not have justified
the annalist of St Peter's in claiming that the count himself was interred
in that abbey.
Also on this page, the death of Baldwin I's son Raoul is correctly dated 28
June 896 in the heading, but in the text below it is given on 17 June. Karl
Werner gave 17 June, without citing a source for the date, but the annals of
St Peter's definitely state "Rodulfus comes interficitur IV kal. Iulii"
(Count Raoul was killed on 28 June).
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Arnulf I page [was: Re: Henry Project - new pages: Flanders]
A few minor points:
The king of Franks referred to as "Robert II" on the pages for Arnulf I and
his father Baldwin II is actually Robert I.
The reference from Jean Dunbabin's 1989 paper in _Francia_ is wrong - she
cited the charter for St Peter's abbey dated 1 October 964 and signed by
Arnulf I, establishing that he died in 965 as stated, but the reference for
this should be (correcting the page and number & supplying the title and
other publication details that are omitted from the bibliography section):
_Diplomata belgica ante annum millesimum centesimum scripta_, edited by
Maurits Gysseling & Anton CF Koch, 2 vols, Bouwstoffen en Studiën voor de
Geschiedenis en de Lexicografie van het Nederlands I (Brussels or Tongres,
1950) vol. I p. 158 no. 61 [not p. 179 no. 71 as given].
Another reference for the date, 27 March, worth mentioning here is the
obituary of Saint-Magloire abbey, founded by Hugo Capet around the time of
Arnulf I's death. Althought the original document is lost, the extracts
taken by Duchesne in the 17th century include this information - see
_Obituaires de la province de Sens_, tome I. Diocèses de Sens et de Paris,
parts 1 & 2, edited by Auguste Molinier, Receuil des Historiens de la
France, Obituaires I (Paris, 1902) p. 390.
Further down, "Baldwin III is explicitly called daughter of Adèle" should
presumably read "son of Adèle", unless the commentary section of his own
page needs a major revision.
The date of death given for Liutgard merits some more attention - 1 October
comes from a dubious later source, whereas the necrology of Elten gives 15
October - see NC Kist, Het Necrologium en het Tijsnboek van het Adelijk
Jufferen-stift te Elten. Medegedeeld uit het onuitgegeven oorspronkelijk
Handschrift; benevens een Geschiedenis der Abdij, in _Nieuw Archief voor
kerkelijke geschiedenis inzonderheid van Nederland_ 2 (1854) 1-216 at p. 96.
However, according to Joseph Depoin [Wicman II, comte du Hamaland,
bienfaiteur de Saint-Pierre de Gand au Xe siècle, _Annales du XXe Congrès_
(Gand, 1907), edited by Paul Bergmans, 2 vols (Ghent, 1907) vol. II 315-351
at p. 318] 29 September is given in a chronicle of Saint-Pierre abbey
printed by Fernand Van de Putte (I have not seen this).
Peter Stewart
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:cu9ti2h48ikf1hr2u5bmt9mndl3c8vegmt@4ax.com...
The king of Franks referred to as "Robert II" on the pages for Arnulf I and
his father Baldwin II is actually Robert I.
The reference from Jean Dunbabin's 1989 paper in _Francia_ is wrong - she
cited the charter for St Peter's abbey dated 1 October 964 and signed by
Arnulf I, establishing that he died in 965 as stated, but the reference for
this should be (correcting the page and number & supplying the title and
other publication details that are omitted from the bibliography section):
_Diplomata belgica ante annum millesimum centesimum scripta_, edited by
Maurits Gysseling & Anton CF Koch, 2 vols, Bouwstoffen en Studiën voor de
Geschiedenis en de Lexicografie van het Nederlands I (Brussels or Tongres,
1950) vol. I p. 158 no. 61 [not p. 179 no. 71 as given].
Another reference for the date, 27 March, worth mentioning here is the
obituary of Saint-Magloire abbey, founded by Hugo Capet around the time of
Arnulf I's death. Althought the original document is lost, the extracts
taken by Duchesne in the 17th century include this information - see
_Obituaires de la province de Sens_, tome I. Diocèses de Sens et de Paris,
parts 1 & 2, edited by Auguste Molinier, Receuil des Historiens de la
France, Obituaires I (Paris, 1902) p. 390.
Further down, "Baldwin III is explicitly called daughter of Adèle" should
presumably read "son of Adèle", unless the commentary section of his own
page needs a major revision.
The date of death given for Liutgard merits some more attention - 1 October
comes from a dubious later source, whereas the necrology of Elten gives 15
October - see NC Kist, Het Necrologium en het Tijsnboek van het Adelijk
Jufferen-stift te Elten. Medegedeeld uit het onuitgegeven oorspronkelijk
Handschrift; benevens een Geschiedenis der Abdij, in _Nieuw Archief voor
kerkelijke geschiedenis inzonderheid van Nederland_ 2 (1854) 1-216 at p. 96.
However, according to Joseph Depoin [Wicman II, comte du Hamaland,
bienfaiteur de Saint-Pierre de Gand au Xe siècle, _Annales du XXe Congrès_
(Gand, 1907), edited by Paul Bergmans, 2 vols (Ghent, 1907) vol. II 315-351
at p. 318] 29 September is given in a chronicle of Saint-Pierre abbey
printed by Fernand Van de Putte (I have not seen this).
Peter Stewart
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:cu9ti2h48ikf1hr2u5bmt9mndl3c8vegmt@4ax.com...
New pages have just been uploaded for the line of the counts of
Flanders from Baldwin I to Matilda of Flanders, including pages for
Mathilde von Sachsen (wife of Baldwin III) and her second husband
Godefroid, count of Verdun. Five of these pages (marked with *) are
major revisions of pages uploaded in 2002, and five are new. The page
on Baldwin I is a major update to the item posted on the newsgroup
earlier this year. At that time I did not yet have copies of some of
the important sources, so that account was only a very preliminary
one. The pages are:
Baldwin I of Flanders.
Baldwin II of Flanders.*
Arnulf I of Flanders.*
Baldwin III of Flanders.*
Arnulf II of Flanders.*
Baldwin IV of Flanders.
Baldwin V of Flanders.
Matilda of Flanders.
Mathilde of Saxony.*
Godefroid of Verdun.
As usual, comments are welcome.
The URL for the index page is:
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/henry.htm
Stewart Baldwin
-
Peter Stewart
Arnulf II page [was: Re: Henry Project - new pages: Flanders
I'm not sure that it is fully warranted to state that Count Arnulf II's wife
Rozala "changed her name to Susanna after the death of her first husband
Arnulf".
There are several problems with this:
First, the later source quoted in support says that she married Robert, king
of Franks and under the new name Susanna reigned as queen ("Roberto regi
Francorum nupsit, et Susanna dicta mutato nomine, regina regnavit". The last
claim is certainly unconvincing, since Robert's mother Adelais was
undoubtedly the reigning queen, explicitly recognised as such by Hugo Capet,
throughout the time in question. There is no definite evidence that
Rozala-Susanna ever so much as visited the Frankish court. Some kind of
agreement was plainly reached for a marriage to Robert, and Richer assumed
that this went forward. However, it remains a strong likelihood that the
concord broke down before a canonical union - or maybe even a meeting
between the principals - actually took place. Susanna must have used Flemish
resources to contest the possession of Montreuil, that was to be hers,
presumably because it was the price for conceding the recognition of
Flanders to Hugo Capet as king.
Secondly, in the course of Robert's long & bitter troubles over his
subsequent consanguineous marriage to Berta of Burgundy, no voice was raised
by Church authorities to suggest that he had a prior commitment to another
wife, and yet there is no record of any formal divorce from Rozala-Susanna
or the need for this.
Thirdly, Robert's son King Henri called Susana "regina" in a diploma after
her death: this could have been embarrassing for himself if taken at face
value to mean that she was once the canonical wife of a king, since Robert's
marriage to Henri's mother Constance probably occurred before
Rozala-Susanna's death. It is more plausible to me that Henri called her
"Susanna regina" becasue the title stuck in popular usage from the time she
had ruled Flanders as regent for her young son.
Furthermore, we don't know for certain that Susanna was not a second name of
Rozala from her baptism. I suspect it wasn't, and that she assumed the name
as a protest against Hugo Capet's proposal for a marriage to his son and
associate king, becasue the circumstances closely match those of St Susanna
when she refused to marry Maximian, the caesar who was associated as
augustus with Diocletian.
Also on this page, the date given for the death of Arnulf II's and
Rozala-Susanna's daughter Matilda is misstated "25 July, before 995". The
source quoted clearly gives 24 July ("VIIII kalendas Augusti"), and this
occurred almost certainly in 995, rather than before. The evidence is a
charter of Saint-Pierre abbey wherein Susanna and her son Baldwin made a
gift for her soul on 26 July 995 - see _Liber traditionum sancti Petri
Blandiniensis_, edited by Arnold R Fayen, Cartulaire de la ville de Gand,
deuxième série, Chartes et documents I (Ghent, 1906) p. 96 no. 102, "Susanna
regina, cum filio suo Baldwino, pro anima filie sue Mathildis, tradidit
alodem suum...Actum est autem hoc VII kal. Augusti anno Verbi incarnati
DCCCCXCV").
Peter Stewart
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:cu9ti2h48ikf1hr2u5bmt9mndl3c8vegmt@4ax.com...
Rozala "changed her name to Susanna after the death of her first husband
Arnulf".
There are several problems with this:
First, the later source quoted in support says that she married Robert, king
of Franks and under the new name Susanna reigned as queen ("Roberto regi
Francorum nupsit, et Susanna dicta mutato nomine, regina regnavit". The last
claim is certainly unconvincing, since Robert's mother Adelais was
undoubtedly the reigning queen, explicitly recognised as such by Hugo Capet,
throughout the time in question. There is no definite evidence that
Rozala-Susanna ever so much as visited the Frankish court. Some kind of
agreement was plainly reached for a marriage to Robert, and Richer assumed
that this went forward. However, it remains a strong likelihood that the
concord broke down before a canonical union - or maybe even a meeting
between the principals - actually took place. Susanna must have used Flemish
resources to contest the possession of Montreuil, that was to be hers,
presumably because it was the price for conceding the recognition of
Flanders to Hugo Capet as king.
Secondly, in the course of Robert's long & bitter troubles over his
subsequent consanguineous marriage to Berta of Burgundy, no voice was raised
by Church authorities to suggest that he had a prior commitment to another
wife, and yet there is no record of any formal divorce from Rozala-Susanna
or the need for this.
Thirdly, Robert's son King Henri called Susana "regina" in a diploma after
her death: this could have been embarrassing for himself if taken at face
value to mean that she was once the canonical wife of a king, since Robert's
marriage to Henri's mother Constance probably occurred before
Rozala-Susanna's death. It is more plausible to me that Henri called her
"Susanna regina" becasue the title stuck in popular usage from the time she
had ruled Flanders as regent for her young son.
Furthermore, we don't know for certain that Susanna was not a second name of
Rozala from her baptism. I suspect it wasn't, and that she assumed the name
as a protest against Hugo Capet's proposal for a marriage to his son and
associate king, becasue the circumstances closely match those of St Susanna
when she refused to marry Maximian, the caesar who was associated as
augustus with Diocletian.
Also on this page, the date given for the death of Arnulf II's and
Rozala-Susanna's daughter Matilda is misstated "25 July, before 995". The
source quoted clearly gives 24 July ("VIIII kalendas Augusti"), and this
occurred almost certainly in 995, rather than before. The evidence is a
charter of Saint-Pierre abbey wherein Susanna and her son Baldwin made a
gift for her soul on 26 July 995 - see _Liber traditionum sancti Petri
Blandiniensis_, edited by Arnold R Fayen, Cartulaire de la ville de Gand,
deuxième série, Chartes et documents I (Ghent, 1906) p. 96 no. 102, "Susanna
regina, cum filio suo Baldwino, pro anima filie sue Mathildis, tradidit
alodem suum...Actum est autem hoc VII kal. Augusti anno Verbi incarnati
DCCCCXCV").
Peter Stewart
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:cu9ti2h48ikf1hr2u5bmt9mndl3c8vegmt@4ax.com...
New pages have just been uploaded for the line of the counts of
Flanders from Baldwin I to Matilda of Flanders, including pages for
Mathilde von Sachsen (wife of Baldwin III) and her second husband
Godefroid, count of Verdun. Five of these pages (marked with *) are
major revisions of pages uploaded in 2002, and five are new. The page
on Baldwin I is a major update to the item posted on the newsgroup
earlier this year. At that time I did not yet have copies of some of
the important sources, so that account was only a very preliminary
one. The pages are:
Baldwin I of Flanders.
Baldwin II of Flanders.*
Arnulf I of Flanders.*
Baldwin III of Flanders.*
Arnulf II of Flanders.*
Baldwin IV of Flanders.
Baldwin V of Flanders.
Matilda of Flanders.
Mathilde of Saxony.*
Godefroid of Verdun.
As usual, comments are welcome.
The URL for the index page is:
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/henry.htm
Stewart Baldwin