Dear Dix Preston:
I wish to congratulate you on your compiling of
information regarding the Kendal Family - excellent.
I will need time to examine your data prior to
responding meaningfully.
Regarding your concern of the "Culwen" title, the
following information may resolve your enquiry:
1185 (about): Thomas (son) Gospatric held the estate
of Colvend. Later he acquired the title of "De Culwen"
(Lordship of Galloway p197, p202)
1189: Patric (Younger) (son) (heir) Thomas (son)
Gospatric of Workington received the lordship of
Culwen in Galloway (Barony of Kendal British History
Online)
Sincerely Yours,
Paul Bulkley
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Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury
Look at http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=49479
There is a pedigree of the family on this page.
There is a pedigree of the family on this page.
-
Gjest
Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury
Dear Paul Bulkley:
Thank your for the kind words. Compiled is the proper term. Everything
I have learned came from others' thoughtful work. I have carefully
sourced all my data and credited those responsible and attempted to
present it in their context. Thank goodness for Google Books, British
History on line and the learned contributors here on SGM.
You wrote<<< I will need time to examine your data prior to
responding meaningfully.>>>
Hope to hear from you if I can be of help.
You wrote <<< Regarding your concern of the "Culwen" title, the
following information may resolve your enquiry:
1185 (about): Thomas (son) Gospatric held the estate
of Colvend. Later he acquired the title of "De Culwen"
(Lordship of Galloway p197, p202)
1189: Patric (Younger) (son) (heir) Thomas (son)
Gospatric of Workington received the lordship of
Culwen in Galloway (Barony of Kendal British History
Online)>>>
These dates are consistent with what we know. Thomas son of Gospatric
was de Workington after Gospatric's death. Gospatric got Workington
through traded lands with William de Lancaster before William's death
in 1170. Colvend is just another spelling of Culwen which was changed
to Curwen in Thomas FitzPatric's brother his heir Gilbert's
timeframe.
You wrote <<<(1) Richard Oram "Lordship of Galloway" advises that
Fergus Galloway married an illegitimate daughter of
Henry Ist. Perhaps the Thomas Galloway that you speak
of was a son of Fergus, and a brother of Uhtred? >>>
Ragg below addressed this as Thomas de Culwen having married Fergus'
daughter with a son Thomas Jr. who had a daughter Grace who married
Thomas son of Gospatric.
You wrote<<<(2) Otherwise consider this significant information
also in Oram's "Lordship of Galloway" P202.
"------- 1180's to the south of Urr lay Colvend the
possession of Roland's second cousin Thomas Fitz
Patric Lord of Workington. His family later acquired
the designation of "de Culwen". To his brother Gilbert
came the lordship of neighboring "Southwick">>>
This is confusing. Thomas FitzPatric is Gospatric's ggs. While he had
a brother Gilbert who became his heir upon Thomas FitzPatric's death,
Gilbert de Southwic was brother of Thomas son of Gospatric. The only
way Thomas FitzPatric could be second cousin to Roland is if Thomas son
of Gospatric married a de Culwen heiress as suggested by Ragg below.
The other option, which is pure speculation, comes about if Roland was
in possession of Colvend in the 1180's he may have given his
daughter, unnamed, in marriage to Patric son of Thomas son of
Gospatric. Patric's wife has never been named. However, then Thomas
FitzPatric would be grandson of Roland. This speculation appears
unwarranted! It appears Thomas son of Gospatric married a Culwen
heiress who may have been Grace and Amabel/Amabilis was their daughter
according to Ragg below. This makes JF Curwen's 1725 pedigree re two
wives incorrect.
You wrote<<<Richard Oram's "Lordship of Galloway" page 99
introduces an interesting comment that might prove an
avenue to investigate:
"Soon after 1176 Richard de Morville arranged the
marriage of his daughter Helen to Roland Galloway ----
his connection provided Roland with a new circle of
dependants. Through it he strengthened the existing
kinship bond with family of Gospatric of Workington
who's elder son Thomas was a tenant of William de
Lancaster lord of Kendal, brother in law to Richard de
Morveille. Thomas's younger brother Gilbert was to
become one of Roland's intimates">>>
This must be Gilbert de Southwic. The existing kinship bond must be as
Ragg describes.
Wyrkington's wife Grace or Grecia, was the daughter of Thomas de
Culwen, not Amabilis. He states, "The charters of Thomas, son of
Gospatrik, mention and imply only one wife. We know her name but not
her descent. They had a daughter Amabilia, and hence perhaps the
confusion. This being understood, the connection apparently implied by
the said evidence could be this :- the daughter of Fergus of Galloway
married Thomas de Culwen, whose son Thomas was the father of Grecia
(Grace) who married Thomas de Wrykington. This would account for the
grant of Culwen which must by moral certainty have gone to a connection
or relation". Source, Rev. Frederick W. Ragg in his published article
"de Culwen", Transactions CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1914, pg. 425,
426."
Sincerely yours,
Dix Preston
Thank your for the kind words. Compiled is the proper term. Everything
I have learned came from others' thoughtful work. I have carefully
sourced all my data and credited those responsible and attempted to
present it in their context. Thank goodness for Google Books, British
History on line and the learned contributors here on SGM.
You wrote<<< I will need time to examine your data prior to
responding meaningfully.>>>
Hope to hear from you if I can be of help.
You wrote <<< Regarding your concern of the "Culwen" title, the
following information may resolve your enquiry:
1185 (about): Thomas (son) Gospatric held the estate
of Colvend. Later he acquired the title of "De Culwen"
(Lordship of Galloway p197, p202)
1189: Patric (Younger) (son) (heir) Thomas (son)
Gospatric of Workington received the lordship of
Culwen in Galloway (Barony of Kendal British History
Online)>>>
These dates are consistent with what we know. Thomas son of Gospatric
was de Workington after Gospatric's death. Gospatric got Workington
through traded lands with William de Lancaster before William's death
in 1170. Colvend is just another spelling of Culwen which was changed
to Curwen in Thomas FitzPatric's brother his heir Gilbert's
timeframe.
You wrote <<<(1) Richard Oram "Lordship of Galloway" advises that
Fergus Galloway married an illegitimate daughter of
Henry Ist. Perhaps the Thomas Galloway that you speak
of was a son of Fergus, and a brother of Uhtred? >>>
Ragg below addressed this as Thomas de Culwen having married Fergus'
daughter with a son Thomas Jr. who had a daughter Grace who married
Thomas son of Gospatric.
You wrote<<<(2) Otherwise consider this significant information
also in Oram's "Lordship of Galloway" P202.
"------- 1180's to the south of Urr lay Colvend the
possession of Roland's second cousin Thomas Fitz
Patric Lord of Workington. His family later acquired
the designation of "de Culwen". To his brother Gilbert
came the lordship of neighboring "Southwick">>>
This is confusing. Thomas FitzPatric is Gospatric's ggs. While he had
a brother Gilbert who became his heir upon Thomas FitzPatric's death,
Gilbert de Southwic was brother of Thomas son of Gospatric. The only
way Thomas FitzPatric could be second cousin to Roland is if Thomas son
of Gospatric married a de Culwen heiress as suggested by Ragg below.
The other option, which is pure speculation, comes about if Roland was
in possession of Colvend in the 1180's he may have given his
daughter, unnamed, in marriage to Patric son of Thomas son of
Gospatric. Patric's wife has never been named. However, then Thomas
FitzPatric would be grandson of Roland. This speculation appears
unwarranted! It appears Thomas son of Gospatric married a Culwen
heiress who may have been Grace and Amabel/Amabilis was their daughter
according to Ragg below. This makes JF Curwen's 1725 pedigree re two
wives incorrect.
You wrote<<<Richard Oram's "Lordship of Galloway" page 99
introduces an interesting comment that might prove an
avenue to investigate:
"Soon after 1176 Richard de Morville arranged the
marriage of his daughter Helen to Roland Galloway ----
his connection provided Roland with a new circle of
dependants. Through it he strengthened the existing
kinship bond with family of Gospatric of Workington
who's elder son Thomas was a tenant of William de
Lancaster lord of Kendal, brother in law to Richard de
Morveille. Thomas's younger brother Gilbert was to
become one of Roland's intimates">>>
This must be Gilbert de Southwic. The existing kinship bond must be as
Ragg describes.
From my last message Reference: "Rev. Frederick W. Ragg in his
published article "de Culwen", was of the mind that Thomas de
Wyrkington's wife Grace or Grecia, was the daughter of Thomas de
Culwen, not Amabilis. He states, "The charters of Thomas, son of
Gospatrik, mention and imply only one wife. We know her name but not
her descent. They had a daughter Amabilia, and hence perhaps the
confusion. This being understood, the connection apparently implied by
the said evidence could be this :- the daughter of Fergus of Galloway
married Thomas de Culwen, whose son Thomas was the father of Grecia
(Grace) who married Thomas de Wrykington. This would account for the
grant of Culwen which must by moral certainty have gone to a connection
or relation". Source, Rev. Frederick W. Ragg in his published article
"de Culwen", Transactions CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1914, pg. 425,
426."
Sincerely yours,
Dix Preston