Dear Dix Preston:
I have studied your considerable information again
because your questions need to be resolved.
Perhaps the Gospatric (son) Orm (son) Ketel descendant
line is as follows based on 22 year generations:
1106/1114: Gospatric (son) Orm born.
1128/1136: Gospatric (son) Orm married Egeline de
Engaine, and died about 1179.
Children: Thomas, Adam, Robert, and Gilbert.
1150/1158: Thomas (son) Gospatric married (1) Amabel
Galloway. Children: Thomas, Alan.
1160/1178: Thomas (son) Gospatric married (2) Grace.
Children: Patric, Ada.
(Thomas (son) Gospatric died 1201.
1172/1180: Thomas (son) Thomas married Joan
Veteriponte, and died before 1201.
1182/1190: Patric (son) Thomas (son) Gospatric married
---------, and appeared to have died about 1240.
(1) Richard Oram "Lordship of Galloway" advises that
Fergus Galloway married an illigitimate daughter of
Henry Ist. Perhaps the Thomas Galloway that you speak
of was a son of Fergus, and a brother of Uhtred?
(2) Otherwise consider this significant information
also in Oram's "Lordship of Galloway" P202.
"------- 1180's to the south of Urr lay Colvend the
possession of Roland's second cousin Thomas Fitz
Patric Lord of Workington. His family later acquired
the designation of "de Culwen". To his brother Gilbert
came the lordship of neighboring "Southwick"
I suggest that you study the research and sources of
information of Richard Oram.
(3) The suggested marriage date of Thomas (son) Thomas
to Joan Veteriponte might be a little early if Joan's
brother Robert was Sheriff 1200-1215 (Lanc P/R) If
Robert the Sheriff was Robert II (son) Robert I
brother of Joan, the suggested marriage dates would be
in order.
Do you have evidence of other sons of Orm (son) Ketel
in addition to Gospatric and Osulf? And where did you
find this information regarding Osulf?
Sincerely Yours,
Paul Bulkley
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Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury
Dear Paul Bulkley
I hope the following sheds some light on extant questions.
Item 1: You asked <<< Do you have evidence of other sons of Orm (son)
Ketel
in addition to Gospatric and Osulf? And where did you
find this information regarding Osulf?>>>
Sons of Ketel: (Sources)
(1) William FitzKetel (Charter)
(2) Orm FitzKetel
(3) Alan FitzKetel de Coupland (page 1054 "Remains, Historical and
Literary, Connected with the Palatine Counties of Lancaster and
Chester" by Chetham Society - Chetham Society 1904-1905 Vol 57)
Sons of Orm: (Sources)
(1) Gospatric FitzOrm
(2) Michael FitzOrm (Bob & Joy Salt web site)
(3) Robert FitzOrm (Michael Anne Guido message SGM; Bob & Joy Salt;
ancestor of the Thornburghs. Robert married Christina, daughter of
Anketin de Meynwarin. Their son Walter was the first of the Thornburgh
name.)
(4) Roger FitzOrm (Bob & Joy Salt)
(5) Osulf FitzOrm of Flemingby & Preston Richard (sources in my last
message and additional Ref A & B below)
(6) Adam FitzOrm (see source Ref C below)
Ref A: All from "Remains, Historical and Literary, Connected with the
Palatine Counties of Lancaster and Chester" by Chetham Society -
Chetham Society 1904-1905 Vol 57
Preston Richard in the par. of Heversham and Preston Patrick in the
par. of Burton -in-Kendal are two adjacent townships which were
separated from each other before the Norman conquest. Preston Richard
was part of the fee of Roger the Poitevin in 1086, and about the middle
of the twelfth century was held by a freeman named Osulf who was the
father of Uchtred.....page 1000
Grant in frankalmoign by Uchtred son of Osulf [de Preston Richard] to
God [and the hospital of Cockersand] of a portion of his land at
Preston [Richard], in Kendal, namely the land which lies next the great
brook [i.e. Peasey Beck]..... page 1001
Confirmation by Richard [de Preston] son of Uchtred son of Osulf [to
the canons of Cockersand] of all the gifts which his father gave them
in almoign in Preston [Richard] in Kendal, namely all the land between
the brook [i.e. Peasey Beck]....page 1002
Ref B: Google book search lists hit but no image. Yale Studies in
Political Science - Page 5 FDP Note: This indicates to me that Osulf
FitzOrm, ancestor of the Harringtons and Prestons, had a brother Adam
"A recent historian 3 has traced the Harrington family back to one
Osulf of ...
, who settled in Cumberland during the reign of Richard I; Osulf's son
....
Ref C: Remains, Historical and Literary, Connected with the Palatine
Counties of Lancaster and Chester - Page 875
by Chetham Society
Release by Roger son of Adam brother of Osulf [to the canons of ... in
the
territory of Caton, one rood and a half by Osulf's barn between land of
the said ...
Item 2: You wrote: <<<1106/1114: Gospatric (son) Orm born.
1128/1136: Gospatric (son) Orm married Egeline de
Engaine, and died about 1179. Children: Thomas, Adam, Robert, and
Gilbert. (FDP Note: These children have siblings from the Salt diagram)
1150/1158: Thomas (son) Gospatric married (1) Amabel
Galloway. Children: Thomas, Alan. (FDP Note: These children differ from
the Salt diagram)
1160/1178: Thomas (son) Gospatric married (2) Grace.
Children: Patric, Ada. (FDP Note: These children differ from the Salt
diagram)
(Thomas (son) Gospatric died 1201.
1172/1180: Thomas (son) Thomas married Joan
Veteriponte, and died before 1201.
1182/1190: Patric (son) Thomas (son) Gospatric married
---------, and appeared to have died about 1240.>>>
I don't have any problem with these approximate dates. Will Johnson
does and he has consistently discounted Douglas Richardson's
excellent analysis in the extensive Nov 2006 message debate. I
independently, using 26 years generations in the 11th & 12th century,
arrived at the same date pattern as Douglas, who in the following
message states.
"As far as Gospatric FitzOrm's own birthdate is concerned, I find
that
in a pedigree chart of the FitzOrm family in Transactions of the
Cumberland & Westmorland Antiq. & Arch. Soc.n.s. 14, pg. 432, Gospatric
FitzOrm is assigned a birthdate of c. 1100.
I think we can likewise safely assign a revised
birth date of no later than c. 1130 to Gospatric's eldest son,
Thomas."
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com>
Date: 28 Nov 2005 18:41:47 -0800
Local: Mon, Nov 28 2005 9:41 pm
Subject: Re: Gospatric FitzOrm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar
The diagram Will recently sent had no dates for Orm and Gospatric and
obviously incorrect dates for Thomas i.e. 1158-1179.
Item 3: You wrote: <<< Regarding Osulf, brother of Gospatric (son) Orm
as you
claim, if he was known as lord of Flimby (Flemingby), presumably he
died dsp, and brother Gospatric succeeded to the estate. Correct?>>>
I don't believe he died that early although Orm died about 1135/40. I
suspect that there was no single heir, but that all the family members
were taken care of and Ketel & Orm's lands in Preston were sufficient
to attract Osulf.
Item 4: You wrote <<< In addition the records show that Thomas and his
wife
Grace in grants to Abbey Hulm 1185-1189, and later
prior to Thomas's death 1201.>>>
The following places Grace's marriage to Beauchamp in at least 1201.
"1201 Roger de Bello Campo and Grecia who was the wife of Thomas son
of Gospatric proffer 100 m. for custody of the land and heir of Thomas
son of Gospatric; they also fine for 400 m. for the amercement of the
forest imposed on the said Thomas in the time of King Richard; R. de
Oblat., 157."
From: 'Holme and Holmescales', Records relating to the Barony of
Kendale: volume 2 (1924), pp. 292-96. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=49322. Date
accessed: 08 October 2006.
Item 5: You wrote<<< Thus the time frame is significant to the Amabel
introduced in the two theories. Bulmer's theory
suggests Amabel was ready for marriage 1140s, whilst
the alternate theory presents an Amabel ready for
marriage 1170/1180. Neither are satisfactory
candidates for a Thomas who married in the 1150s.>>>
I found the following which may help sort out the Amabel problem which
we may never satisfactorily resolve. I think we have covered most of
the options.
"GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives
Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2004-06 > 1088655924
From: Tim <tim.cartmell@shaw.ca>
Subject: Uchtred, Lord of Galloway,Thomas de Culwen and the Curwens of
Workington
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:25:24 -0700
Dear Listers,
I while ago I was searching through the old GEN-MEDIEVAL archives and
came across a short discussion re: Uchtred of Galloway, Thomas de
Culwen and the Curwens of Workington. For anyone who may be interested,
I have attached what information I have found regarding their
connections;
The History of the Ancient House of Curwen, by JF Curwen, states that
Thomas de Culwen was the son of Uchtred, Lord of Galloway. pg. 30.
"Soon after 1185 Thomas (de Wyrkington) received the great lordship of
Culwen. Several theories have been advanced as to how Thomas received
this grant, but the one which seems to accord best with the facts, is
derived from the pedigree at Workington, dated 1725, in which it
appears that this possession came to him through his first marriage
with Amabilis, the daughter and heiress of Thomas de Culwen, the son of
Uchtred, lord of Galloway. And as Patric was his eldest son by this
marriage he inherited the estate and styled himself de Culwen. Thomas
son of Thomas (de Wyrkington) by his second wife, Grace, succeeded to
Workington estates, but having no son, and his daughter dying childless
these English estates would revert to the right heir male of Thomas fil
Gospatric, i.e. to Patric de Culwen who thereby united the estates".
Source, The History of the Ancient House of Curwen, by JF Curwen,
published 1928, pg. 30.
However, the aforementioned being stated, it is possible that Thomas de
Culwen may have actually been the son of a daughter of Fergus of
Galloway instead. The old Curwen pedigree at Workington dated 1725,
suggests that Roland, Lord of Galloway was a cousin to Sir Thomas de
Culwen, pedigree states, "The evidence in ye Study at Workington will
prove Sir Tho de Culwen was Cosen to Roland Earl of Galloway." Source,
Rev. Federick W. Ragg in his published article, "de Culwen",
Transactions, CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1914, pg. 428.
Rev. Frederick W. Ragg in his published article "de Culwen", was of the
mind that Thomas de Wyrkington's wife Grace or Grecia, was the daughter
of Thomas de Culwen, not Amabilis. He states, "The charters of Thomas,
son of Gospatrik, mention and imply only one wife. We know her name but
not her descent. They had a daughter Amabilia, and hence perhaps the
confusion. This being understood, the connection apparently implied by
the said evidence could be this :- the daughter of Fergus of Galloway
married Thomas de Culwen, whose son Thomas was the father of Grecia
(Grace) who married Thomas de Wrykington. This would account for the
grant of Culwen which must by moral certainty have gone to a connection
or relation". Source, Rev. Frederick W. Ragg in his published article
"de Culwen", Transactions CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1914, pg. 425, 426.
Timothy J. Cartmell"
I hope this helps.
Sincerely yours,
Dix Preston
I hope the following sheds some light on extant questions.
Item 1: You asked <<< Do you have evidence of other sons of Orm (son)
Ketel
in addition to Gospatric and Osulf? And where did you
find this information regarding Osulf?>>>
Sons of Ketel: (Sources)
(1) William FitzKetel (Charter)
(2) Orm FitzKetel
(3) Alan FitzKetel de Coupland (page 1054 "Remains, Historical and
Literary, Connected with the Palatine Counties of Lancaster and
Chester" by Chetham Society - Chetham Society 1904-1905 Vol 57)
Sons of Orm: (Sources)
(1) Gospatric FitzOrm
(2) Michael FitzOrm (Bob & Joy Salt web site)
(3) Robert FitzOrm (Michael Anne Guido message SGM; Bob & Joy Salt;
ancestor of the Thornburghs. Robert married Christina, daughter of
Anketin de Meynwarin. Their son Walter was the first of the Thornburgh
name.)
(4) Roger FitzOrm (Bob & Joy Salt)
(5) Osulf FitzOrm of Flemingby & Preston Richard (sources in my last
message and additional Ref A & B below)
(6) Adam FitzOrm (see source Ref C below)
Ref A: All from "Remains, Historical and Literary, Connected with the
Palatine Counties of Lancaster and Chester" by Chetham Society -
Chetham Society 1904-1905 Vol 57
Preston Richard in the par. of Heversham and Preston Patrick in the
par. of Burton -in-Kendal are two adjacent townships which were
separated from each other before the Norman conquest. Preston Richard
was part of the fee of Roger the Poitevin in 1086, and about the middle
of the twelfth century was held by a freeman named Osulf who was the
father of Uchtred.....page 1000
Grant in frankalmoign by Uchtred son of Osulf [de Preston Richard] to
God [and the hospital of Cockersand] of a portion of his land at
Preston [Richard], in Kendal, namely the land which lies next the great
brook [i.e. Peasey Beck]..... page 1001
Confirmation by Richard [de Preston] son of Uchtred son of Osulf [to
the canons of Cockersand] of all the gifts which his father gave them
in almoign in Preston [Richard] in Kendal, namely all the land between
the brook [i.e. Peasey Beck]....page 1002
Ref B: Google book search lists hit but no image. Yale Studies in
Political Science - Page 5 FDP Note: This indicates to me that Osulf
FitzOrm, ancestor of the Harringtons and Prestons, had a brother Adam
"A recent historian 3 has traced the Harrington family back to one
Osulf of ...
, who settled in Cumberland during the reign of Richard I; Osulf's son
....
Ref C: Remains, Historical and Literary, Connected with the Palatine
Counties of Lancaster and Chester - Page 875
by Chetham Society
Release by Roger son of Adam brother of Osulf [to the canons of ... in
the
territory of Caton, one rood and a half by Osulf's barn between land of
the said ...
Item 2: You wrote: <<<1106/1114: Gospatric (son) Orm born.
1128/1136: Gospatric (son) Orm married Egeline de
Engaine, and died about 1179. Children: Thomas, Adam, Robert, and
Gilbert. (FDP Note: These children have siblings from the Salt diagram)
1150/1158: Thomas (son) Gospatric married (1) Amabel
Galloway. Children: Thomas, Alan. (FDP Note: These children differ from
the Salt diagram)
1160/1178: Thomas (son) Gospatric married (2) Grace.
Children: Patric, Ada. (FDP Note: These children differ from the Salt
diagram)
(Thomas (son) Gospatric died 1201.
1172/1180: Thomas (son) Thomas married Joan
Veteriponte, and died before 1201.
1182/1190: Patric (son) Thomas (son) Gospatric married
---------, and appeared to have died about 1240.>>>
I don't have any problem with these approximate dates. Will Johnson
does and he has consistently discounted Douglas Richardson's
excellent analysis in the extensive Nov 2006 message debate. I
independently, using 26 years generations in the 11th & 12th century,
arrived at the same date pattern as Douglas, who in the following
message states.
"As far as Gospatric FitzOrm's own birthdate is concerned, I find
that
in a pedigree chart of the FitzOrm family in Transactions of the
Cumberland & Westmorland Antiq. & Arch. Soc.n.s. 14, pg. 432, Gospatric
FitzOrm is assigned a birthdate of c. 1100.
I think we can likewise safely assign a revised
birth date of no later than c. 1130 to Gospatric's eldest son,
Thomas."
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com>
Date: 28 Nov 2005 18:41:47 -0800
Local: Mon, Nov 28 2005 9:41 pm
Subject: Re: Gospatric FitzOrm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar
The diagram Will recently sent had no dates for Orm and Gospatric and
obviously incorrect dates for Thomas i.e. 1158-1179.
Item 3: You wrote: <<< Regarding Osulf, brother of Gospatric (son) Orm
as you
claim, if he was known as lord of Flimby (Flemingby), presumably he
died dsp, and brother Gospatric succeeded to the estate. Correct?>>>
I don't believe he died that early although Orm died about 1135/40. I
suspect that there was no single heir, but that all the family members
were taken care of and Ketel & Orm's lands in Preston were sufficient
to attract Osulf.
Item 4: You wrote <<< In addition the records show that Thomas and his
wife
Grace in grants to Abbey Hulm 1185-1189, and later
prior to Thomas's death 1201.>>>
The following places Grace's marriage to Beauchamp in at least 1201.
"1201 Roger de Bello Campo and Grecia who was the wife of Thomas son
of Gospatric proffer 100 m. for custody of the land and heir of Thomas
son of Gospatric; they also fine for 400 m. for the amercement of the
forest imposed on the said Thomas in the time of King Richard; R. de
Oblat., 157."
From: 'Holme and Holmescales', Records relating to the Barony of
Kendale: volume 2 (1924), pp. 292-96. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=49322. Date
accessed: 08 October 2006.
Item 5: You wrote<<< Thus the time frame is significant to the Amabel
introduced in the two theories. Bulmer's theory
suggests Amabel was ready for marriage 1140s, whilst
the alternate theory presents an Amabel ready for
marriage 1170/1180. Neither are satisfactory
candidates for a Thomas who married in the 1150s.>>>
I found the following which may help sort out the Amabel problem which
we may never satisfactorily resolve. I think we have covered most of
the options.
"GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives
Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2004-06 > 1088655924
From: Tim <tim.cartmell@shaw.ca>
Subject: Uchtred, Lord of Galloway,Thomas de Culwen and the Curwens of
Workington
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:25:24 -0700
Dear Listers,
I while ago I was searching through the old GEN-MEDIEVAL archives and
came across a short discussion re: Uchtred of Galloway, Thomas de
Culwen and the Curwens of Workington. For anyone who may be interested,
I have attached what information I have found regarding their
connections;
The History of the Ancient House of Curwen, by JF Curwen, states that
Thomas de Culwen was the son of Uchtred, Lord of Galloway. pg. 30.
"Soon after 1185 Thomas (de Wyrkington) received the great lordship of
Culwen. Several theories have been advanced as to how Thomas received
this grant, but the one which seems to accord best with the facts, is
derived from the pedigree at Workington, dated 1725, in which it
appears that this possession came to him through his first marriage
with Amabilis, the daughter and heiress of Thomas de Culwen, the son of
Uchtred, lord of Galloway. And as Patric was his eldest son by this
marriage he inherited the estate and styled himself de Culwen. Thomas
son of Thomas (de Wyrkington) by his second wife, Grace, succeeded to
Workington estates, but having no son, and his daughter dying childless
these English estates would revert to the right heir male of Thomas fil
Gospatric, i.e. to Patric de Culwen who thereby united the estates".
Source, The History of the Ancient House of Curwen, by JF Curwen,
published 1928, pg. 30.
However, the aforementioned being stated, it is possible that Thomas de
Culwen may have actually been the son of a daughter of Fergus of
Galloway instead. The old Curwen pedigree at Workington dated 1725,
suggests that Roland, Lord of Galloway was a cousin to Sir Thomas de
Culwen, pedigree states, "The evidence in ye Study at Workington will
prove Sir Tho de Culwen was Cosen to Roland Earl of Galloway." Source,
Rev. Federick W. Ragg in his published article, "de Culwen",
Transactions, CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1914, pg. 428.
Rev. Frederick W. Ragg in his published article "de Culwen", was of the
mind that Thomas de Wyrkington's wife Grace or Grecia, was the daughter
of Thomas de Culwen, not Amabilis. He states, "The charters of Thomas,
son of Gospatrik, mention and imply only one wife. We know her name but
not her descent. They had a daughter Amabilia, and hence perhaps the
confusion. This being understood, the connection apparently implied by
the said evidence could be this :- the daughter of Fergus of Galloway
married Thomas de Culwen, whose son Thomas was the father of Grecia
(Grace) who married Thomas de Wrykington. This would account for the
grant of Culwen which must by moral certainty have gone to a connection
or relation". Source, Rev. Frederick W. Ragg in his published article
"de Culwen", Transactions CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1914, pg. 425, 426.
Timothy J. Cartmell"
I hope this helps.
Sincerely yours,
Dix Preston