Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

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paul bulkley

Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av paul bulkley » 03 okt 2006 19:00:03

Dear Dix:

Your two interpretations of how Thomas (son)Gospatric
(son) Orm inherited the lordship of Culwen:

Interpretation 1:

Please provide evidence that Waltheof Dunbar actually
had a son named Thomas.

Interpretation 2:

Please explain how a Thomas son of Gunnilda Dunbar and
Uctred Galloway could become Thomas (son) Gospatric
(son) Orm. Also all documents refer to a Thomas (son)
Gospatric (son) Orm and yet no mention of a Thomas
Galloway (son) Gospatric etc etc.

Would it not make better sense to investigate the
family of Grace (wife) of Thomas (son) Gospatric
through whom the title of Culwen might be attributed.
There is at least documentary evidence that Grace
actually existed.

You mention that Orm (son) Ketel had a son Osulf,
brother to Gospatric, who was known as lord of
Flemby/Flemingby. Have you any evidence of this Osulf,
his time frame, and an explanation of his inheritance?

The following documents suggest that you need some
evidence to support your contention.

1100/1120 Waltheof Dunbar (brother in law to Orm) and
(brother to Gunnilda Dunbar wife of Orm) infeoffed Orm
of manor of Seton below Derwent - the property being
parcel of Barony of Allerdale. Also granted to Orm
towns of Camberton, Crayksothan, and Fleming (Flimby).
Orm settled in Seton (Camden's Brit III 9)

1174: Gospatric (son) Orm arranged that his son Adam
Rector of Flimby that Holm Abbey should have Flimby
Chapel, and through an exchange with Carlisle Priory
consolidated their estate by giving Waitecroft for
Kelton (Register of Holm Abbey)

1174: Robert A/D Carlisle relates that Adam the cleric
(son) Gospatric (son) Orm rector church of Camerton
has quitclaim to Holm Abbey in presence of himself,
the canons, and many others, the chapel of Flemingby
and all the land of Flemingby that belonged to the
church of Camberton - that is the title and the land
which Adam owned in Flemingby and received from
Gospatric his father property in Seton in exchange.
Witness: Udard the dean (Register Flemingby)

The above evidence suggests that Orm received Flimby
from Waldeofe Dunbar, and in turn the property was
inherited by his son Gospatric, and then in turn Adam
son of Gospatric.

Sincerely Yours,

Paul Bulkley

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Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 okt 2006 18:43:13

Dear Paul,

I hope the following helps answer your questions.

<<<Please provide evidence that Waltheof Dunbar actually
had a son named Thomas.>>>

The only evidence I have comes from the Bulmer piece Ref C of my first
message. The Culwen land in Galloway had to get to Patric de Culwen
somehow and these are the possible paths I have found see Ref B, D, E
and F. The following may interest you.

FIRST: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... /ROYAL.HTM

Click below for Tree diagrams showing the Curwen line of descend.

Diagram 1: Shows Uchtred FitzFergus m. Gunnild d. Waltheof and having a
son Thomas de Culwen who m. NN and had daughter Amabilis the de Culwen
heir who m. Thomas son of Gospatric son of Orm. His chart, Diagram 2,
Pedigree 1, shows him m. both Amablis and Grace two different women. I
believe these charts come from JF Curwen's book on the family.

Also see Amablis (Grace) in their descent table

SECOND: Direct Line of Descent from the Kings of Scotland
Thomas of Workington m. Amabilis de Culwen

http://www.btinternet.com/~stephen.yarw ... otland.htm


<<<Please explain how a Thomas son of Gunnilda Dunbar and
Uctred Galloway could become Thomas (son) Gospatric
(son) Orm. Also all documents refer to a Thomas (son)
Gospatric (son) Orm and yet no mention of a Thomas
Galloway (son) Gospatric etc.>>>

You have your Thomas mixed up. Thomas son Gunnild FitzWaldeve/Waltheof
and Uchtred FitzFergus is shown in site data labled FIRST above. He was
known as Thomas de Culwen and had a daughter Amabilsis/Amabel/ de
Culwen who was his heir. She brought this dowry to her marriage with
Thomas son of Gospatric. Culwen was just some land in the larger area
known as Galloway. There was no Tomas Galloway son of Gospatric

<<<Would it not make better sense to investigate the
family of Grace (wife) of Thomas (son) Gospatric
through whom the title of Culwen might be attributed.
There is at least documentary evidence that Grace

actually existed.>>>

Grace has no known last name and I know of no data that mentions her
other than my Weis data in my first message. We only hear of her
because she married Beauchamp before 1209 as widow of Thomas. See data
from site at FIRST above. We don't know if there were issue from
second marriage which might indicate her age.

<<<You mention that Orm (son) Ketel had a son Osulf,
brother to Gospatric, who was known as lord of
Flemby/Flemingby. Have you any evidence of this Osulf,
his time frame, and an explanation of his inheritance?>>>

At this stage I have found, in my research, data leading to the
conclusion that our Osulf de Preston Richard, is son of Orm son of
Ketel, aka Osulf of Flemingby, Usulf Ld. of Flimby and Harington, Ulf,
Orsulf, Aculf, Ulf de Applyby, Holkoff, Osluf, Oslaf, Oswulf, or
Osulphus. (Last two from Ancestral File). Perhaps he was also known as
Huck, ancestor of the Singleton family. He was also ancestor to the
Harrington or Haverington family. The Farrer records are from his
"Records of Kendale."

Ref (1): From: "Gordon Kirkemo" (kirkemo@comcast.net); Subject: Early
Haringtons in Cumberland; Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval; Date:
2003-09-25 23:22:09 PST

In CP Vol. VI, page 314, the earliest Harington/Haverington identified
is
Robert husband of Agnes de Cansfield, and father of John identified as
the
first Lord Harington. In footnote "d" on page 314, it is suggested
that
more of Robert's ancestry can be found at the following source: "Reg.
Of
St. Bees (Surtees Soc.), p.117." I am not familiar with this source,
and
I'm hoping someone on the list might be and could relay what that
ancestry
is.

From a tertiary source "Medieval English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by
Carl

Boyer, 3rd, I have a possible ancestry. Mr. Boyer cites "The Harington
Family" by Ian Grimble as his source. As I am not familiar with
Grimble,
I'm hoping someone can confirm, challenge, or add to the following AT:

1. Robert de Haverington/Harington d. 1297, married Agnes de Cansfield,
Lady
of Aldingham.
2. Michael Harington was of Haverington, Cumberland (Boyer).
3.
4. Thomas Harington was said by Grimble to have probably lived at
Harrington
(Boyer).
5.
6.
7.
8. Robert of Harrington was called Robertus de Hafrinctuna in a grant
to the
Priory of St. Bee's of a church and two hides of land. His wife
Christiana
was mentioned as his advisor in the grant (Boyer).
9. Christiana (Boyer)

16. Osulf of Flemingby of Cumberland made a grant of land to the Priory
of
Carlisle "eighty years after Magnus Barelegs perished in Ireland"
[Grimble,
19]. He flourished during the time of Richard I, who reigned from 1189
to
1199 (BOYER).

Ref (2): From: Kay Allen AG (allenk@pacbell.net); Subject: Re: Early
Haringtons in Cumberland; Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval; Date:
2003-09-26 07:55:59 PST

Walter L. Sheppard in his work on Carleton takes the Harringtons back
to Ketel
fitz Eldred and cites Moriarty Notebooks XIII:92 and XIX:59. I do not
have what
Moriaty cites. He also cites VCH Lancs. III:171; V:246; VIII: 202,
324,232,413 for Osulf down to Robert who married Agnes Cansfield.

16. Usulf, Ld. of Flimby and Harington.

32.Orm, thegn of Flimby, d. c. 1135/40.
33. Gunhilda.

64. Ketel.
66. Gospatric, d. 1074
67. sister E. Northumberland.

128. Eldred.

K

Ref (3): From: Chris Phillips (cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk)
Subject: Re: Early Haringtons in Cumberland
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2003-10-07 11:31:53 PST

Gordon Kirkemo wrote:
<<I'm hoping someone can help me take the Harington/Haverington line
back a
few generations.

In CP Vol. VI, page 314, the earliest Harington/Haverington identified
is
Robert husband of Agnes de Cansfield, and father of John identified as
the
first Lord Harington. In footnote "d" on page 314, it is suggested
that
more of Robert's ancestry can be found at the following source: "Reg.
Of
St. Bees (Surtees Soc.), p.117." I am not familiar with this source,
and
I'm hoping someone on the list might be and could relay what that
ancestry
is. >>

"The ancestry given in CP's source agrees with what you had from Carl
Boyer,
but goes no further.

A footnote on pp. 116, 117 of Rev. James Wilson, ed., "The Register of
the
Priory of St Bees" (Surtees Society vol. 126, 1915), says this about a
charter (No 88) of Robertus de Hafrinctuna, "cum consilio uxoris mee
Cristiane":

"The grantor appears to have been the seond lord of Harrington whose
name
has been preserved. The pedigree on the Plea Roll of 1277 (De Banco R.
No.
21, m. 43d) furnishes a useful table for the early descents of this
family,
all of whom except Osulph appear as grantors or witnesses in this
Register.
It is as follows:-

OSULPH
[son:]
ROBERT DE HAFRINCTUNA (No. 88)
[sons:]
ADAM d. s.p. [and] THOMAS
[son of Thomas:]
MICHAEL
[son:]
ROBERT DE HAVERINGTON (No. 89)

Osulph, sometimes called Aculf, held the lands in Flimby which
Gospatric son
of Orm gave to the priory of Carlisle - "totam terram quam Aculfus de
eo
tenuit iuxta Flemyngeby inter duas valles." The grants of Gospatric to
the
monks of Holmcultram and the claims of the Harringtons, the descendants
of
Aculf, form an interesting series of deeds in the Register of that
House."

No 89 is a charter of Robertus de Haverington dated 3 November 1292.

Chris Phillips"

Ref (4): 1189-1199ca: "Osulf of Flemingby of Cumberland made a grant
of land to the Priory of Carlisle "eighty years after Magnus Barelegs
perished in Ireland" [Grimble, 19]. He flourished during the time of
Richard I, who reigned from 1189 to 1199." Source: "Medieval
English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. FDP Note: "The
Vikings of Strangford Lough and The death of Magnus Barelegs
1103A.D." By Albert William Kelly Colmer, Consultant Historian.
Source: http://www.irishsecrets.ie/history-secr ... -barelegs/

Ref (5): "1170-1184; Uctred son of Osulf [de Preston :Richard]
attested charters of William de Lancaster II; Farrer, Lanes. Pipe R.,
443."(Farrer Vol II, p 202)
Ref (6): "1170-1181; William de Lancaster II gave to Norman de
Hieland, Lefnes for 8s. rent, saving the fishery and water of Kent unto
Sandpol, and saving hawks, hart and hind, wild boar and sow.
Witnesses; Helewise the grantor's wife, Simon de Turs, Anselm, Huctred
son of Osolf, Roger son of Adam, Robert Mustel. Richard son of Alard,
Jordan Gilbert the grantor's brother. Gilbert de Croft, John the clerk;
Orig. at Levens. (Farrer Vol II, page 114)

Ref (7): "1184-1195; Gilbert son of Roger Fitz-Reinfrid confirms to
Thomas son of Gospatrick his lands of Kendale, namely Holm, Preston and
Hoton, to hold by the service of the 4th part of a knight's fee for
which he and his heirs shall be quit of 43s. for cornage. Witnesses:
Roger Fitz-Reinfrid, Hugh de Morvill, Reinfrid de Bhueria. Gilbert
de Lancastre, Gervase de Aencurt, Robert de Bethum, Uctred son of
Osolph, Roger de Bello Campo, Geoffrey de Preston and others;
Transact., N.S. XIV, 55. (Farrer Vol II, p 298)

Ref (8): "1184-1190; Hutred son of Osolf and his heirs gave to the
canons of Cockersand land at Preston in Kendale lying next the great
brook [Peasey Beck] which is the boundary between the two Prestons,
below the highway which leads to Wathsuthenan, ascending that way to
the head of the great tillage which crosses the tillage of Hoscal-hofeh
[Oskill's Head], as the peat-moss meets the hard land in going round
to the spring below Hoscal-houet, and by the syke of the spring to the
said great brook, with common of pasture within Ekergart in Winter and
Spring for eight beasts with calves, two horses and 20 sheep with
lambs, and from the beginning of summer outside Ekergart with the
donor's men until Martinmas; Cockersand Chartul., 1001.(Farrer Vol II,
p 202)

Ref (9): "1190-1220; Richard son Hutred son Osolf recomfirmed above
gift." Richard de Preston mentioned as having given gift to Henry de
Chetham (Farrer Vol II, p.202).

Ref (10): "1150-1170; William de Lancastre with the consent of
William his son and heir confirms to Gospatric son of Orm his land of
Caupland viz; the vill of Wirkington and the vill of Lamplogh which
latter the grantor gave him in exchange for the vill of Medilton in
Lonesdale etc. Witness: Ketel son of Ulf; Reg. of St. Bees. 539.
Copy of the orig. deed at Workington Hall. See also Trans., o.s. v.
p. 312."(Farrer Vol 2, p 400) FDP Note: This Ketel is son of Osulf
aka Ulf.

<<<The following documents suggest that you need some
evidence to support your contention.>>>

The above should suffice.

<<<1100/1120 Waltheof Dunbar (brother in law to Orm) and
(brother to Gunnilda Dunbar wife of Orm) infeoffed Orm
of manor of Seton below Derwent - the property being
parcel of Barony of Allerdale. Also granted to Orm
towns of Camberton, Crayksothan, and Fleming (Flimby).
Orm settled in Seton (Camden's Brit III 9)>>>

I would suggest that this marriage took place before 1100 based upon
the chronology in this thread.

<<<1174: Gospatric (son) Orm arranged that his son Adam
Rector of Flimby that Holm Abbey should have Flimby
Chapel, and through an exchange with Carlisle Priory
consolidated their estate by giving Waitecroft for
Kelton (Register of Holm Abbey)>>>

I have no problem with this date. Osulf was back in the land of Preston
he got from Ketel and his son Orm d. 1134/5. Osulf appears to has been
holding Flemingby from his brother Gospatric who then gave it to his
son Adam.

<<<1174: Robert A/D Carlisle relates that Adam the cleric
(son) Gospatric (son) Orm rector church of Camerton
has quitclaim to Holm Abbey in presence of himself,
the canons, and many others, the chapel of Flemingby
and all the land of Flemingby that belonged to the
church of Camberton - that is the title and the land
which Adam owned in Flemingby and received from
Gospatric his father property in Seton in exchange.
Witness: Udard the dean (Register Flemingby)>>>

No Problem.

<<<The above evidence suggests that Orm received Flimby
from Waldeofe Dunbar, and in turn the property was
inherited by his son Gospatric, and then in turn Adam
son of Gospatric.>>>

No Problem. Osulf was holding it for his brother.

Sincerely Yours,

Dix Preston

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