Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
paul bulkley

Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av paul bulkley » 29 sep 2006 18:37:02

Subscribers have questioned the life span of Gospatric
(son ) Orm (son) Ketel.

Regarding his birth date:

Orm (his father) was witness to the 1094 Charter of
Roger Poictevin. Orm married twice, his second wife
being Gunild (daughter) Gospatrick 1 Dunbar (Lanc P/R
Farrer 296) It is assumed that her birth date was
similar to her brother Waltheof Dunbar, and it would
appear reasonable that she married Orm 1095-1115, and
that Gospatric was born about that time.

Regarding Gospatric's life and death, there are many
records in Lanc P/R):

1174 He surrendered Appleby Castle, and paid a 500M
fine 1176. Thomas his son granted family property
(Seton) to Abbey Holm 1179 which suggests that his
father Gospatric passed away between 1176 and 1179.
(Register Abbey Holm Cultray)

A poem describing the surrender of Appleby Castle 1174
described Gospatric as an elderly Englishman with grey
hair. If authentic it suggests a man late in age. A
contributor on the Web claims that he was 64 years of
age 1174 - the source of that information not
revealed. If correct Gospatric's birth would have been
1110.

Review of the records of Gospatric's sons and
grandchildren also suggest that the time frame
1110-1175 is probable.

Sincerely Yours,

Paul Bulkley

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Chris Dickinson

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 30 sep 2006 19:16:20

Paul Bulkley wrote:


1174 He surrendered Appleby Castle, and paid a 500M
fine 1176. Thomas his son granted family property
(Seton) to Abbey Holm 1179 which suggests that his
father Gospatric passed away between 1176 and 1179.
(Register Abbey Holm Cultray)


The dates ring a slight warning bell.

The Angevin Empire had just been through a full blown crisis, with the
consequence that England saw a series of legal and fiscal reforms up to
1181. You may find that the events you have listed have more to do with
political/financial necessities triggered from above than with family
mortality.

Chris

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 okt 2006 18:06:56

Dear Paul

Item A: you recently wrote <<Your advise of a Thomas (son) Waltheof
Dunbar is of
some interest. I have yet to find any evidence of this Thomas. I have
only information of Waltheof's children Gunnilda and Alan.

Secondly I am puzzled that this Thomas is then claimed to have held the
manor of Worthington, had a grant of Curwen Galloway etc. This
information appears to
contradict your later information of the Kendall family, and does not
appear to tally with the following:>>

I was attempting to show that there are two interpretations as to how
the Lordship of Culwen in Galloway came to Thomas son of Gospatric son
of Orm and his heirs. (1) Bulmer suggests that Thomas son of Waldeve
Lord of Allerdale was given a grant of Culwen thus making him Thomas de
Culwen who had a daughter Amablis or Amabel de Culwen who married
Thomas son of Gospatric son of Orm. (2) Some suggest this Thomas de
Culwen was son of Uchtred FitzFergus whose father was the original Lord
of Galloway. Which ever interpretation is correct. the marriage brought
this land to Thomas son Gospatric who was also Lord of Workington
after Gospatric died. Then when Thomas son of Thomas son of Gospatric
died in the time of his father the second son Patric de Culwen was heir
to the entire estate. Thomas son of Gospatric had previously given
Patric the de Culwen land and he was known as Patrick de Culwen.
Patrick became Lord of Workington, ancestor of the Curwen line, and
moved there after his father died. Ketel father of Orm had lands in
Kendale (an area much larger than just Kendal and subject of Farrer's
three volumes of "Records of Kendale.") per Farrer, and part of his
holding there was an area known as Preston. (see St. Bees record below)
This Preston land passed from Ketel to Orm and was then passed to
Orm's great grandson Patric de Culwen and his portion of the land was
known as Preston Patrick. Orm also had a son Osulf, brother to
Gospatric, who was known as Lord of Flemby/Flemingby (part of the land
Orm got in marriage to Gunnilda from her brother Waldeve/Waltheof ).
This part of the Preston land came to Osulf's grandson Richard de
Preston and was known as Preston Richard.

I prefer interpretation (1) re Thomas de Culwen on a generational
basis.

Gospatric.......................Gospatric..................
...Gospatric
Waldeve/Waltheof Gunnilda m. Orm
Waldeve/Waltheof
Thomas de Culwen Gospatric s. Orm Gunnild
of Dunbar m.Uchtred
Amabilis/Amabel m. Thomas s of Gospatric Thomas de
Culwen

Amabilis m. Thomas s Gospatric

Item 2: The birth of Gospatric son of Orm was the subject of many SGM
messages in Nov 2005 and was pretty well established as 1100-1110.
Those who are demanding proof apparently are looking for a birth
certificate. In particular see (1) Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval;
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com>
Date: 28 Nov 2005 12:16:24 -0800; Local: Mon, Nov 28 2005 3:16 pm
Subject: Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar (2)
Richardson again Mon, Nov 28 2005 9:41 pm same subject; (3) again
Tues, Nov 29 2005 12:36 pm .

Also the proposition that Orm had two wives, see Michael Anne Guido
article in Foundations which was discussed thoroughly in the 5-25 Nov
2006 numerous messages, and for my view, list member discussion has
proven her argument for two wives insufficient.

Item 3: Following land transfers is difficult in this time frame. Many
sources attempt to follow the "Baron Kendal" line
Ivo>Eldred>Ketel>Gilbert>William de Lancaster which has been
discredited. Keats-Rohan in her Domesday Descendants defines the line
differently as Ivo Taillebois' daughter Beatrice m. Eldred and had
Goditha who married a Norman Knight Gilbert who were parents of William
Taillebois who changed his name to de Lancaster by King's
proclamation. Farrer in Vol 1 Introduction provides an argument that
there was no Barony of Kendal until 1189 when the King granted it to
Gilbert FitzRenfried.

Eldred chronologically appears to have married Goditha as his second
wife and Ketel his son appears to have been Goditha's step brother
and they had different mothers. This thought was well discussed in the
Nov 2005 messages and there is no "proof" of this available other
than from secondary sources.

Gospatric, Lord of Northumbria d. 1074/5; Ivo Taillebois d. 1094; and
Eldred d. in the 1090-1100 timeframe all were contemporaneous. Sanders
calls Eldred Lord of Workington. St. Bees below calls Ketel, son of
Eldred, as Lord of Workington and Lord of Coupland. It appears that
they may have been tenants, in this part of Cumberland, of Ivo and/or
owners by the right of Beatrice to Ivo's lands. Ivo's land went to
the king upon his death and then to Nigel de Aubginy by Henry I. Then
to Roger de Mowbray his son. About 1140 Roger gave Kendal and
surrounding lands to William de Lancaster for service of 4 knights.
Some where in here William received Workington from his uncle Ketel and
probably this was residual from Ivo's grand daughter Goditha's
holdings. Ketel's son Orm received much of Ivo's land through
Waldeve/Waltheof's gift on marriage to his sister. These people were
all at the tenant level of various overlords, however they had control
of much of the land in Cumberland and Westmoreland and were able to
pass it on to their descendants.

Reference A: "The priory of Wetheral, of the Benedictine order, was
founded in the beautiful valley of the Eden a few miles above Carlisle
by Ranulf Meschin, the first Norman lord of Cumberland, at a date not
later than 1112 and perhaps in 1106..... In the formalities attending
the foundation of this house some of the leading men of the district
appear for the first time. In one or other of the four charters granted
by the founder, such well-known persons as Waldeve son of Earl
Gospatric, Forn son of Sigulf, Ketel son of Eldred, Odard, Hildred the
knight, Wescubrict, and Godard, are mentioned at this early period."
From: 'Houses of Benedictine monks: The priory of Wetheral', A History
of the County of Cumberland: Volume 2 (1905), pp. 184-89. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... uery=Ketel.
Date accessed: 21 February 2006.

Reference B: "For notes on the descendants of Earl Gospatric, see
Hedley, Northumberland Families, I, 238-41 ;Hodgson, Northumberland,
24-31 and pedigree facing p. 104; Sanders, Baronies, 106, 134. The
sisters or half-sisters of Gospatric included Gunnilda, who married the
powerful Copeland tenant, Orm Fitz Ketel; and Etheldreda, who married
King Duncan II of Scotland and by him was the mother of William Fitz
Duncan. Waldeve's daughters, Gunnilda and Octreda, married Uhctred Fitz
Fergus, lord of Galloway, and Ranulf of Lindsey, one of King David's
closest companions, respectively. See ESC, 406; Register of St. Bees.
nos. 3, 4, 32, 52, 223, 232 and notes, pp. ix, 339, 384, 465'; Register
of Holm Cullram, 34, nos. 49, 49d, 210; G. Washington, 'The parentage
of William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal', TCWAAS, 62 (1962), 95-100."
Source: Conquest, Anarchy & Lordship: Yorkshire 1066-1154 by Paul
Dalton; Cambridge University Press 1994; notes p.200-201.

Reference C: "Sanders' "English Baronies: a study of the origin
and descent 1086-1327" (Oxford, 1963) p.56: 'That part of
Westmorland which came to be called the barony of Kendal was granted to
Ivo de Taillebois by William Rufus. During the reign of Henry I the
lands passed under the control of Chetell son of Eldred lord of
Workington, Cumb."

Reference D: "...are descended from Patrick (who became known as de
Culwen) son of Thomas of Workington (died 1200) and Amabel daughter and
co-heir of Thomas de Culwen. Their ancestor was Chettel (living 1120),
Lord of Workington and son of Eldred. Source : "Cumberland Families and
Heraldry" by C. Roy Hudleston [CWAAS, 1978] He quotes his source as JF
Curwen "A History of the Ancient ouse of Curwen"; and in JPP, CW2 xiv,
and SBR." From: "Chris Dickinson" <seja...@globalnet.co.uk> Subject:
Re: CURWEN; Date: 1999/06/21; Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval

Reference E: "FILIUS ELDRED, KETEL: Son of Eldred and a daughter of
Ivo Taillcbois (q.v.), some of whose land in the barony of Kendal he
inherited. Benefactor of the abbey of St Bees, founded 1120, to which
he gave land in Morland and Workington (Register St Bees, pp. 233 -34,
no. 212) with the assent of his wife Christiana and son William. Father
also of Orm, whose son Gospatric was his eventual heir. His grant of
land to St Leonard's, York, was confirmed by his sister's son William
fitz Gilbert of Lancaster (q.v.). He died several years after 1120.
G. Washington, 'The parentage of William de Lancaster, lord of
Kendal', Transactions Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian &
Archaeological Society 62 (1962). Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum,
III, pp. 548-60, no. V." Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B.
Keats-Rohan, page 881.

Reference F: "Charter of Ranulph Meschin to Stephen, the abbot, and
the convent of St. Mary of York, addressed to Richerius, Sheriff of
Carlisle, and to all his men, French and English, who dwell in 'the
power of Carlisle; granting the manor which is called Wederhal, with
the lands appertaining thereto, for the souls of King Henry, the
donor's father and mother, himself and his wife Lucy. Witnesses :
Osbert the Sheriff, Walteof son of Cospatric the Earl, Fornus son of
Sigulfus, Chetellus son of Ectredus, etc.'" It is interesting to
note that Chetellus/Ketel, a succesor of Ivo Taillebois in Westmorland
was a witness." Source: From: Kay Allen, A.G.; all...@pacbell.net (G
.. EDWARD ALLEN) Date: 1998/10/14; Subject: Re: Charters concerning
Ctess Lucy; Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval. [FDP Note: dating this
charter can be inferred by Forne [d. 1129-30, Sanders p. 50] son of
Sigulf; Waltheof died before 1138; Ranulph d. 1128-29; Lucy d. 1138;
Henry d. 1 Dec. 1135; therefore, Ketel Fitz Eldred appears to be alive
with Forne before 1128.]

Reference G: "At the northern end of Copeland, Ketel son of Eldred
granted to St Mary's Abbey at York the church of Workington, to which
was later added the chapel of Clifton in Workington parish. His
successor Gospatric son of Orm granted the church of Harrington before
1154. The abbey's rights in these churches was expressed in fixed
payments of four marks (£2 13s 4d), two shillings and two shillings
respectively, which were collected by the cell of St Bees." Source:
"The pre-Conquest Church in St Bees, Cumbria: a possible minster?"
By John M. Todd who cites: St B. Reg, 234 (no.212), 61 (no.32), 572
(no. LXXII). From the internet.

Reference H: "The charters of St. Bee's show that Chetel [Ketel] was
the lord of
Workington as in charter #212 he gives the church of Workington with 2
carucates of
land and a mill [ he also gives two other churches] to St. Mary's,
York. This
charter is also consented to by his wife Christina and his eldest son
William
both of whom witness the charter. This charter is also witnessed by
Ivo fitz
Forne dating it to ca. 1115-1120 as Ivo became lord of his father's
lands in 1130. At the time of this charter Chetel must have been
quite old as his younger son Orm witnessed a charter of Roger de
Poictevin in 1094 (Farrer, Pipe Rolls of Lancashire, pp. 289-290)
making him born at least by 1080. This would make Ketel born ca.
1055-1060 at the latest."... "There is also proof that Ketel owned
large amounts of land in Kendal (Cal.
of Charter Rolls, ii, 442). Charter 19 in the Appendix of St. Bee's
Register (Prescott, 1897, pp. 539-540) clearly shows that William de
Lancaster exchanged the land of Workington and Lamplough with
Gospatric son of Orm for the land Gospatric held in Medilton."
Source: Source: Michael Anne Guido writing as Claudiu...@aol.com;
Thurs, Nov 24 2005 9:33 am; Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval;
Subject: Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..

Reference I: "It is not only true that the descendants of William
Meschin in the barony of Coupland were generous to his foundation, but
the descendants of Waldeve, Ketel, Godard and Reiner, who were
associated with him in its first establishment, were liberal in their
benefactions. In fact it might be said that the priory owed whatever
measure of prosperity it possessed to the munificence of these
families, the Romillys, Albemarles, Lucys, Multons, Curwens, Milloms,
Hudlestons, Rotingtons and others." Source: 'Houses of Benedictine
monks: The priory of St Bees', A History of the County of Cumberland:
Volume 2 (1905), pp. 178-83. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... uery=Ketel.
Date accessed: 21 February 2006.

Reference J: "This abbey is the third house in the county which owes
its origin to the great and famous family of Ranulf Meschin, the first
Norman lord of Cumberland. The priory of Wetheral was founded by him in
the early years of the reign of Henry I., and the priory of St. Bees
was founded by his brother, William Meschin, soon after 1120, both as
cells of the Benedictine abbey of St. Mary, York. It may be admitted
that Ranulf, the son of William, took an interest in St. Bees, which
lies within the fee of Coupland, and was a great benefactor of his
father's foundation." From: 'Houses of Cistercian monks: The abbey of
Calder', A History of the County of Cumberland: Volume 2 (1905), pp.
174-78. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... uery=Ketel.
Date accessed: 21 February 2006.

Reference K: "There can be little doubt that the influence of Bega
was a power in the south-western portion of the county in the early
years of the twelfth century. The district had borne her name, and a
parish church was entitled in her honour before the Norman lord of that
place determined to found a religious house within a few miles of his
baronial seat at Egremont. The date of the foundation of the priory by
William Meschin, the first Norman owner of Coupland, can only be
approximately given. His first charter was, as one might say, only
declaratory of his intention to proceed with the undertaking. It was
also an invitation to his own knights and to the proprietors of
neighbouring fiefs to aid him in the work.... The large landowners of
the neighbourhood associated themselves with the founder, and
contributed their share to its first endowment. Waldeve, lord of
Allerdale below Derwent, who had received his barony from Henry I.,
granted the manor of Stainburn; Ketel gave Preston; Reiner, two oxgangs
of land in Rottington with the native who dwelt there." From: 'Houses
of Benedictine monks: The priory of St Bees', A History of the County
of Cumberland: Volume 2 (1905), pp. 178-83. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... uery=Ketel.
Date accessed: 21 February 2006.

I hope this helps in your research

Sincerely yours,

Dix Preston

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 okt 2006 18:22:33

I see my table got screwed up... it was to show the difference between
4 generations and 5 to support interpretation (1)

Gospatric
Gunnilda m. Orm
Gospatric FitzOrm
Thomas FitzGospatric m. Amablis?Amabel de Culwen

Gospatric
Waldeve/Waltheof
Gunnild of Dunbar m.Uchtred FitzFergus
Thomas de Culwen
Amablis/Amabel de Culwen m. Thomas s of Gospatric

Gospatric
Waldeve/Waltheof
Thomas de Culwen
Amablis/Amabel de Culwen m. Thomas s of Gospatric

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 okt 2006 14:00:56

Eldred chronologically appears to have married Goditha {sorry for error
this should read Beatrice} as his second wife and Ketel his son appears
to have been Goditha's step brother
and they had different mothers. This thought was well discussed in the
Nov 2005 messages and there is no "proof" of this available other
than from secondary sources.

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»