Otgiva of Luxemburg

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Stewart Baldwin

Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 25 sep 2006 05:11:25

The parentage of Otgiva of Luxemburg has been discussed here before,
but there is an alternate possibility about which I have been
wondering. The earliest source to state the parentage of Otgiva makes
her a daughter of an otherwise unidentified count Giselbert
["Balduinus Barbatus duxit filiam Gisleberti comitis Odgivam, ex qua
suscepit Balduinus Insulanum, ..." Genealogia comitum Flandriae
Bertiniana, MGH SS 9: 306]. The qualification of this Giselbert as a
count of Luxemburg evidently begins with Lambert of Saint-Omer (ca.
1120) ["Balduinus autem Barbatus Gandavi sepultus, accepit Otgivam
filiam Gisleberti comitis de Lizelenbors, ex qua suscepit Balduinum
Insulanum." MGH SS 9: 309]. The observation that Giselbert of
Luxemburg (d. 1059) does not make a chronologically believable father
for Otgiva, along with the additional data first appearing in
"Flandria Generosa" (ca. 1164) ["Iste Balduinus vir pulcher, formosus
corpore et stature grandis, uxorem accepit Ogivam, filiam Gisleberti
comitis de Lixelenborg, cuius fratres fuerunt hi: Adalbero Metensis
episcopus, Fredericus dux Lotharingie, Henricus dux Baioarie,
Gislebertus comes de Salinis, Theodericus de Luzelenburch" MGH SS 9:
318], has generally tilted opinion in favor of Frederick of Luxemburg,
known to be the father of the "fratres" in the above list.

In looking over Frederick's family, one thing that bothers me is that
those discussing Otgiva's parentage do not generally consider the
possibility that Frederick's BROTHER Giselbert (d. 1004) might have
been Otgiva's father. The only example of which I can think at the
moment which mentions (and rejects) this possibility is Siegfried
Hirsch's "Jahrbücher des Deutschen Reichs unter Heinrich II." [p. 538,
n. 8].

The main argument that would seem to make it difficult to make Otgiva
a daughter of this Giselbert is that he is called "iuvenis" by
Thietmar of Merseberg in his account of Giselbert's death [Thietmar,
Chron., vi, 6, MGH SS 3: 806; also by Adelbold, Vita Henrici Imp., c.
39, MGH SS 4: 693, which, however, is not an independent source]. The
term "iuvenis" is vague enough that declaring the relationship
impossible on those grounds alone seems hasty to me, for Giselbert
would only have to have been in his late 20's at death in order for
the possibility to be chronologically plausible (say, Giselbert b. ca.
975, and Otgiva b. ca. 995). Given that the sources provide a
contradiction which needs to be explained, and the fact that "of
Luxemburg" would have been pretty vague at Otgiva's time, there might
be an argument for accepting the early information regarding the name
of Otgiva's father and rejecting the later statement regarding the
identity of her siblings.

This leads to the obvious question(s): Is the word "iuvenis" alone
enough to exclude Giselbert as the father of Otgiva, and is there any
other reason why he should be excluded as a candidate for Otgiva's
father?

I should note that I am not (yet) claiming that this detail of the
Luxemburg genealogiccal tree necessarily needs to be redrawn, but I do
think that this is a point that needs to be covered in order to be
thorough.

Looking ahead (obviously prematurely) to what the consequences would
be of such a redrawing, the most notable (from the point of view of
the Henry Project on which I have been working) is that Henry II would
lose his Konradiner descent (but keep his Luxemburg descent via a
slightly different route). More conjecturally, Otgiva's uncommon name
might then come from her mother's family (an explanation that seems
unlikely if her mother was the Konradiner wife of Frederick).

Stewart Baldwin

Peter Stewart

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 25 sep 2006 09:35:42

The description "iuvenis" would not alone rule Count Giselbert in or out as
a candidate to be father of Otgiva.

In classical usage this term could indicate a person aged between 20 and 40;
according to Isidore of Seville's etymologies the range of the fourth age of
man was from 28 to 50 ("Tertia adolescentia...porrigitur usque ad viginti
octo annos. Quarta iuventus...finiens in quinquagesima anno").

Giselbert was called "iuvenis" at the time of his death in battle at Pavia
on 18 May 1004, and he might have been born ca 960-975 for all that tells
us.

Otgiva was evidently married by ca 1012 but we don't know when she was born.
He name suggests a link to Eadgifu, the English princess who was the second
wife of King Charles the Simple. If Otgiva was actually descended from her,
this was most likely through one of the daughters of Eadgifu's son King
Louis IV, either Mathilde who was second wife of King Conrad the Peaceable
of Burgundy or more plausibly Gerberga who married Count Lambert I of
Louvain. Alternatively, the name might have been transmitted to the family
of Luxemburg by other means - for instance, possibly conferred by a
godparent, maybe Eadgifu's grandson Charles of Laon before his imprisonment.

Whether or not he was married (there is no record of this) and Otgiva's
father, Giselbert's title correctly may have been count of Vaudevrange
following a charter of Volcmar, abbot of Saint-Maximin, dated 996, "in
comitatu Waldelevinga, cui Gisilbertus comes preesse videtur". Nonetheless
he may have been more commonly known as count "of Luxemburg" from his
father's lordship.

It does seem odd, however, that Otgiva was not identified by Flemish writers
as niece of Empress Kunigunde.

Peter Stewart


"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:64heh2po9dkeh9ho271tn2dllmm9t9d9pr@4ax.com...
The parentage of Otgiva of Luxemburg has been discussed here before,
but there is an alternate possibility about which I have been
wondering. The earliest source to state the parentage of Otgiva makes
her a daughter of an otherwise unidentified count Giselbert
["Balduinus Barbatus duxit filiam Gisleberti comitis Odgivam, ex qua
suscepit Balduinus Insulanum, ..." Genealogia comitum Flandriae
Bertiniana, MGH SS 9: 306]. The qualification of this Giselbert as a
count of Luxemburg evidently begins with Lambert of Saint-Omer (ca.
1120) ["Balduinus autem Barbatus Gandavi sepultus, accepit Otgivam
filiam Gisleberti comitis de Lizelenbors, ex qua suscepit Balduinum
Insulanum." MGH SS 9: 309]. The observation that Giselbert of
Luxemburg (d. 1059) does not make a chronologically believable father
for Otgiva, along with the additional data first appearing in
"Flandria Generosa" (ca. 1164) ["Iste Balduinus vir pulcher, formosus
corpore et stature grandis, uxorem accepit Ogivam, filiam Gisleberti
comitis de Lixelenborg, cuius fratres fuerunt hi: Adalbero Metensis
episcopus, Fredericus dux Lotharingie, Henricus dux Baioarie,
Gislebertus comes de Salinis, Theodericus de Luzelenburch" MGH SS 9:
318], has generally tilted opinion in favor of Frederick of Luxemburg,
known to be the father of the "fratres" in the above list.

In looking over Frederick's family, one thing that bothers me is that
those discussing Otgiva's parentage do not generally consider the
possibility that Frederick's BROTHER Giselbert (d. 1004) might have
been Otgiva's father. The only example of which I can think at the
moment which mentions (and rejects) this possibility is Siegfried
Hirsch's "Jahrbücher des Deutschen Reichs unter Heinrich II." [p. 538,
n. 8].

The main argument that would seem to make it difficult to make Otgiva
a daughter of this Giselbert is that he is called "iuvenis" by
Thietmar of Merseberg in his account of Giselbert's death [Thietmar,
Chron., vi, 6, MGH SS 3: 806; also by Adelbold, Vita Henrici Imp., c.
39, MGH SS 4: 693, which, however, is not an independent source]. The
term "iuvenis" is vague enough that declaring the relationship
impossible on those grounds alone seems hasty to me, for Giselbert
would only have to have been in his late 20's at death in order for
the possibility to be chronologically plausible (say, Giselbert b. ca.
975, and Otgiva b. ca. 995). Given that the sources provide a
contradiction which needs to be explained, and the fact that "of
Luxemburg" would have been pretty vague at Otgiva's time, there might
be an argument for accepting the early information regarding the name
of Otgiva's father and rejecting the later statement regarding the
identity of her siblings.

This leads to the obvious question(s): Is the word "iuvenis" alone
enough to exclude Giselbert as the father of Otgiva, and is there any
other reason why he should be excluded as a candidate for Otgiva's
father?

I should note that I am not (yet) claiming that this detail of the
Luxemburg genealogiccal tree necessarily needs to be redrawn, but I do
think that this is a point that needs to be covered in order to be
thorough.

Looking ahead (obviously prematurely) to what the consequences would
be of such a redrawing, the most notable (from the point of view of
the Henry Project on which I have been working) is that Henry II would
lose his Konradiner descent (but keep his Luxemburg descent via a
slightly different route). More conjecturally, Otgiva's uncommon name
might then come from her mother's family (an explanation that seems
unlikely if her mother was the Konradiner wife of Frederick).

Stewart Baldwin

Peter Stewart

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 25 sep 2006 12:30:09

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:yxMRg.35707$rP1.269@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
The description "iuvenis" would not alone rule Count Giselbert in or out
as a candidate to be father of Otgiva.

In classical usage this term could indicate a person aged between 20 and
40; according to Isidore of Seville's etymologies the range of the fourth
age of man was from 28 to 50 ("Tertia adolescentia...porrigitur usque ad
viginti octo annos. Quarta iuventus...finiens in quinquagesima anno").

Giselbert was called "iuvenis" at the time of his death in battle at Pavia
on 18 May 1004, and he might have been born ca 960-975 for all that tells
us.

Otgiva was evidently married by ca 1012 but we don't know when she was
born. He name suggests a link to Eadgifu, the English princess who was the
second wife of King Charles the Simple. If Otgiva was actually descended
from her, this was most likely through one of the daughters of Eadgifu's
son King Louis IV, either Mathilde who was second wife of King Conrad the
Peaceable of Burgundy or more plausibly Gerberga who married Count Lambert
I of Louvain.

On second thoughts, a descent from Queen Eadgifu is highly implausible
through Gerberga and Count Lambert I of Louvain, because if they had been
parents of Otgiva's mother then Count Henri III of Louvain and his wife
Gertrude of Flanders would have been second cousins twice removed, and so
too would Count Balduin II of Hainaut and his wife Ida of Louvain. There are
other occurrences of consanguinity and affinity that would also have come to
notice with such a lineage.

Mathilde and King Conrad of Burgundy could possibly have been grandparents
of Otgiva's mother through their daughter Gerberga (Guepa) by her first
husband Count Hermann I of Werl. In this case Otgiva's mother would
necessarily have been born ca 980 and Otgiva herself by ca 998. NB I have
not yet looked into this family beyond this bare chronology.

Peter Stewart

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 25 sep 2006 18:02:15

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 11:30:09 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

Mathilde and King Conrad of Burgundy could possibly have been grandparents
of Otgiva's mother through their daughter Gerberga (Guepa) by her first
husband Count Hermann I of Werl. In this case Otgiva's mother would
necessarily have been born ca 980 and Otgiva herself by ca 998. NB I have
not yet looked into this family beyond this bare chronology.

I have another candidate that I have been thinking of for some time:
Mathilde of Burgundy, daughter of king Conrad of Burgundy and Mathilde
of France. There are a number of reason that I have been looking at
her as a possible candidate for Otgiva's mother.

1. Conrad and Mathilde were married between 963 and 966, so a daughter
of this marriage makes a chronologically plausible candidate for
Otgiva's mother.

2. It would provide a simple explanation for both Otgiva's name and
the name of her sister Gisele.

3. Conrad's daughter Mathilde is known to have been married: an
addition to one of the manuscripts of Flodoards annals shows that
Mathilde, sister of Rudolf III of Burgundy, was mother of a certain
Bertha, the mother of Gerald of Geneva [MGH SS 3: 407]. The identity
of Mathilde's husband has apparently not yet been satisfactorily
explained.

4. Most importantly, there is the obviously false claim of "Genealogia
ex stirpe sancti Arnulfi descendentium Mettensis" [MGH SS 25: 384],
which would make Mathilde of Burgundy the wife of Baldwin III of
Flanders (in fact married to another Mathilde, daughter of Hermann of
Saxony). Could this chronologically impossible claim be a mangling of
an earlier statement that a daughter of Mathilde was married to
another Baldwin of Flanders (i.e., Baldwin IV). Curiously, this
source gives "Chunegunde" as the name of the wife of Baldwin IV. If
Mathilde were Otgiva's mother, then all of the confusion in this
source would have a plausible explanation.

I was originally planning to wait until I had investigated the
possibilities of this conjecture more thoroughly before mentioning it,
but since we are already in speculation mode in this thread, I guess
it is time to bring it up.

Stewart Baldwin

John P. Ravilious

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 25 sep 2006 19:04:58

Dear Stewart,

A very interesting conjecture indeed.

There is another individual who would then show as a sibling (or
half-sibling * ) of Otgiva under your theory: Matilda's son Conrad, a
candidate for the German throne in 1024 (Conrad II of Swabia, husband
of Matilda's niece Gisela, was the individual ultimately elected):

'Iunioris Chuononis mater Mathilda de filia Chuonradi regis
Burgundiae nata fuit. ' [Gesta Chuonradi II imperatoris, Capitulum II]

There would then be (in no particular order), Conrad, Bertha, and
Otgiva.

* Of course, Matilda could have had more than one spouse (in
theory, anyway).....

Cheers,

John


Stewart Baldwin wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 11:30:09 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

Mathilde and King Conrad of Burgundy could possibly have been grandparents
of Otgiva's mother through their daughter Gerberga (Guepa) by her first
husband Count Hermann I of Werl. In this case Otgiva's mother would
necessarily have been born ca 980 and Otgiva herself by ca 998. NB I have
not yet looked into this family beyond this bare chronology.

I have another candidate that I have been thinking of for some time:
Mathilde of Burgundy, daughter of king Conrad of Burgundy and Mathilde
of France. There are a number of reason that I have been looking at
her as a possible candidate for Otgiva's mother.

1. Conrad and Mathilde were married between 963 and 966, so a daughter
of this marriage makes a chronologically plausible candidate for
Otgiva's mother.

2. It would provide a simple explanation for both Otgiva's name and
the name of her sister Gisele.

3. Conrad's daughter Mathilde is known to have been married: an
addition to one of the manuscripts of Flodoards annals shows that
Mathilde, sister of Rudolf III of Burgundy, was mother of a certain
Bertha, the mother of Gerald of Geneva [MGH SS 3: 407]. The identity
of Mathilde's husband has apparently not yet been satisfactorily
explained.

4. Most importantly, there is the obviously false claim of "Genealogia
ex stirpe sancti Arnulfi descendentium Mettensis" [MGH SS 25: 384],
which would make Mathilde of Burgundy the wife of Baldwin III of
Flanders (in fact married to another Mathilde, daughter of Hermann of
Saxony). Could this chronologically impossible claim be a mangling of
an earlier statement that a daughter of Mathilde was married to
another Baldwin of Flanders (i.e., Baldwin IV). Curiously, this
source gives "Chunegunde" as the name of the wife of Baldwin IV. If
Mathilde were Otgiva's mother, then all of the confusion in this
source would have a plausible explanation.

I was originally planning to wait until I had investigated the
possibilities of this conjecture more thoroughly before mentioning it,
but since we are already in speculation mode in this thread, I guess
it is time to bring it up.

Stewart Baldwin

Peter Stewart

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 25 sep 2006 23:26:28

"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:pc1gh2lj6pc4mg5thsu6ibaog0vbaa8vfv@4ax.com...
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 11:30:09 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

Mathilde and King Conrad of Burgundy could possibly have been grandparents
of Otgiva's mother through their daughter Gerberga (Guepa) by her first
husband Count Hermann I of Werl. In this case Otgiva's mother would
necessarily have been born ca 980 and Otgiva herself by ca 998. NB I have
not yet looked into this family beyond this bare chronology.

I have another candidate that I have been thinking of for some time:
Mathilde of Burgundy, daughter of king Conrad of Burgundy and Mathilde
of France. There are a number of reason that I have been looking at
her as a possible candidate for Otgiva's mother.

1. Conrad and Mathilde were married between 963 and 966, so a daughter
of this marriage makes a chronologically plausible candidate for
Otgiva's mother.

2. It would provide a simple explanation for both Otgiva's name and
the name of her sister Gisele.

3. Conrad's daughter Mathilde is known to have been married: an
addition to one of the manuscripts of Flodoards annals shows that
Mathilde, sister of Rudolf III of Burgundy, was mother of a certain
Bertha, the mother of Gerald of Geneva [MGH SS 3: 407]. The identity
of Mathilde's husband has apparently not yet been satisfactorily
explained.

4. Most importantly, there is the obviously false claim of "Genealogia
ex stirpe sancti Arnulfi descendentium Mettensis" [MGH SS 25: 384],
which would make Mathilde of Burgundy the wife of Baldwin III of
Flanders (in fact married to another Mathilde, daughter of Hermann of
Saxony). Could this chronologically impossible claim be a mangling of
an earlier statement that a daughter of Mathilde was married to
another Baldwin of Flanders (i.e., Baldwin IV). Curiously, this
source gives "Chunegunde" as the name of the wife of Baldwin IV. If
Mathilde were Otgiva's mother, then all of the confusion in this
source would have a plausible explanation.

I was originally planning to wait until I had investigated the
possibilities of this conjecture more thoroughly before mentioning it,
but since we are already in speculation mode in this thread, I guess
it is time to bring it up.

This looks more promising than a descent from one of her sisters. I don't
have information to hand on the descendants of Mathilde's daughter Berta by
Aymard of Geneva - have you checked these for connections to descendants of
Otgiva?

Peter Stewart

Roger LeBlanc

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 26 sep 2006 18:46:02

Please bear with me on this one, but I am wondering why the current
reconstruction would not remain satisfactory. As I understand it,
Otgiva's mother is the nameless wife of Frederick of Luxembourg, who is
known to be a daughter of Heribert of Kinziggau. Why might one not
hypothesize that the nameless wife may also have been an Otgiva? Is it
not true that the parentage of Heribert of Kinziggau has not yet been
established?

Another ramification of note- in the identification of Judith of
Flanders, one of the key factors in placing her as a daughter of Baldwin
IV's second marriage was the consanguinity issues which would have
arisen due to Otgiva and Gisele being sisters. How would the new
reconstructions affect this placement?

Very interesting discussion nonetheless.

Roger LeBlanc

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 26 sep 2006 21:13:02

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:26:28 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

This looks more promising than a descent from one of her sisters. I don't
have information to hand on the descendants of Mathilde's daughter Berta by
Aymard of Geneva - have you checked these for connections to descendants of
Otgiva?

I have found no clear link between any descendants of Bertha (what few
I have seen) and of Otgiva. There is evidently no evidence that
Bertha's husband was Aymard of Geneva, and the current consensus seems
to be that Bertha was married to Gerhard, brother of Pope Leo IX
(which would at least give her Lotharingian connections). The main
basis for this is Wibert's life of Leo IX, which states that Gerhard
married a "neptis" of king Rudolf III. [See, e.g., René Poupardin,
"Le royaume de Bourgogne (888-1038) - Étude sur les origines du
royaume d'Arles" (Paris, 1907), 390; Eduard Hlawitschka, Die Anfang
des Hauses Habsburg-Lothringen (Saarbrücken, 1969), 107]. Eduard
Hlawitschka, "Zur Herkunft und zu den Seitenverwandten des Gegen
königs Rudolf von Rheinfelden" [in Weinfurter & Kluger, eds., Die
Salier und das Reich (Band 1: Salier, Adel und Reichsverfassung,
1991), 175-220] has an attempt (pp. 210-5) to reconstruct the family
of Bertha's son Gerold of Geneva, but I see nothing there that could
be used to support a connection to Otgiva.

Stewart Baldwin

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 26 sep 2006 21:55:43

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 16:40:52 +0000 (UTC), leblancr@mts.net (Roger
LeBlanc) wrote:

Please bear with me on this one, but I am wondering why the current
reconstruction would not remain satisfactory. As I understand it,
Otgiva's mother is the nameless wife of Frederick of Luxembourg, who is
known to be a daughter of Heribert of Kinziggau. Why might one not
hypothesize that the nameless wife may also have been an Otgiva? Is it
not true that the parentage of Heribert of Kinziggau has not yet been
established?

The current reconstruction has never been entirely satisfactory,
because every early source giving the name of Otgiva's father gives
the name Giselbert. (No early source gives the name of Otgiva's
mother.) Most have noted that the most obvious Giselbert of Luxemburg
(Frederick's son, the one who died in 1059) can be ruled out as
Otgiva's father, and then made her a sister of Giselbert instead
(aided by the statement of "Flandria Generosa" 100 years or so later
which appears to name some of Otgiva's siblings). However, this
assumes that there is no other Giselbert who would make a good
candidate for Otgiva's father. If Frederick's brother Giselbert
cannot be ruled out as Otgiva's father, then that weakens Frederick's
case.

As for Heribert, I have found the attempts of Armin Wolf and Donald
Jackman to redraw his ancestry to be unconvincing, and I think that
the so-called "orthodox" view, i.e., that Heribert was the son of Udo
by his Vermandois marriage, is probably correct. In any case, Otgiva
is evidently an Anglo-Saxon name, and there is nothing about Heribert
or his wife to suggest an Anglo-Saxon descent, so I seriously doubt
that Frederick's wife was named Otgiva.

Another ramification of note- in the identification of Judith of
Flanders, one of the key factors in placing her as a daughter of Baldwin
IV's second marriage was the consanguinity issues which would have
arisen due to Otgiva and Gisele being sisters. How would the new
reconstructions affect this placement?

It is true that placing Otigiva as a daughter of Frederick's brother
Giselbert would increase the distance of relationship between Otgiva
and Welf of Bavaria (Judith's second husband) by one generation, and
thus weaken the negative evidence that would make the relationship
between Otgiva and Judith doubtful. However, I don't think it would
affect Judith's case in a material way, for there is strong evidence
that she was closely related to Edward the Confessor, and Baldwin IV's
second wife, a first cousin of Edward, is the only wife of a count of
Flanders known to have had a close relationship to Edward.

Stewart Baldwin

Peter Stewart

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 27 sep 2006 10:25:10

"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b31jh2tislj9hp8cn0868856pp4vmid6k1@4ax.com...
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:26:28 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

This looks more promising than a descent from one of her sisters. I don't
have information to hand on the descendants of Mathilde's daughter Berta
by
Aymard of Geneva - have you checked these for connections to descendants
of
Otgiva?

I have found no clear link between any descendants of Bertha (what few
I have seen) and of Otgiva. There is evidently no evidence that
Bertha's husband was Aymard of Geneva, and the current consensus seems
to be that Bertha was married to Gerhard, brother of Pope Leo IX
(which would at least give her Lotharingian connections). The main
basis for this is Wibert's life of Leo IX, which states that Gerhard
married a "neptis" of king Rudolf III. [See, e.g., René Poupardin,
"Le royaume de Bourgogne (888-1038) - Étude sur les origines du
royaume d'Arles" (Paris, 1907), 390; Eduard Hlawitschka, Die Anfang
des Hauses Habsburg-Lothringen (Saarbrücken, 1969), 107]. Eduard
Hlawitschka, "Zur Herkunft und zu den Seitenverwandten des Gegen
königs Rudolf von Rheinfelden" [in Weinfurter & Kluger, eds., Die
Salier und das Reich (Band 1: Salier, Adel und Reichsverfassung,
1991), 175-220] has an attempt (pp. 210-5) to reconstruct the family
of Bertha's son Gerold of Geneva, but I see nothing there that could
be used to support a connection to Otgiva.

I'm not sure about Hlawitschka (I will check these references when I can),
but Poupardin provides nothing definite and not much otherwise to establish
his argument. He simply states that the marriage of Bertha to Aimon, count
of the Genevois, was supposed by Guichenon and the authors of _L'art de
vérifier les dates_ only to attach Gerold to the family of his predecessors.
However, he fails to provide sufficient rationale for preferring to separate
Gerold from the family of his predecessor and attach him instead to the
counts of Egisheim, the family of Pope Leo IX.

The statement by Wibert probably does mean niece rather than kinswoman more
generally - but I can't see why this limits the search to Mathilde of
Burgundy's daughter Berta. We know that the name Gerberga and its diminutive
Guepa were used for a woman who appears to belong to the family of Egisheim
without knowing her exact parentage, the abbess at Neuss ca 1050. This could
well indicate a relationship to Gerberga aka Guepa of Burgundy who was
another sister of King Rudolf III - I mentioned her earlier in this thread.
If, for instance, a daughter of Gerberga by her second husband, Hermann II,
duke of Swabia, had been the wife of Gerhard of Egisheim, then the
relationship mentioned by Wibert would exist. The name Cunegonde/Kuniza
belonged in Duke Hermann's family, and a Kuniza married to a Count Gerhard
is recorded.

Assuming that Hlawitschka did give some particular reason/s for rejecting a
possible relationship through Gerberga/Guepa of Burgundy in favour of one
through her sister Mathilde and the latter's daughter Berta, could you tell
us what he says about this matter and the inheritance or otherwise of
comital rights in Geneva?

Peter Stewart

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 28 sep 2006 21:30:15

On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:25:10 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b31jh2tislj9hp8cn0868856pp4vmid6k1@4ax.com...

I have found no clear link between any descendants of Bertha (what few
I have seen) and of Otgiva. There is evidently no evidence that
Bertha's husband was Aymard of Geneva, and the current consensus seems
to be that Bertha was married to Gerhard, brother of Pope Leo IX

[snip]

This statement was carelessly worded on my part, making the case sound
stronger than what is justified (at least from what I have seen). I
should have worded it more cautiously, saying that Gerhard was the
most frequently suggested candidate for Bertha's husband.

I'm not sure about Hlawitschka (I will check these references when I can),
but Poupardin provides nothing definite and not much otherwise to establish
his argument. He simply states that the marriage of Bertha to Aimon, count
of the Genevois, was supposed by Guichenon and the authors of _L'art de
vérifier les dates_ only to attach Gerold to the family of his predecessors.
However, he fails to provide sufficient rationale for preferring to separate
Gerold from the family of his predecessor and attach him instead to the
counts of Egisheim, the family of Pope Leo IX.

[snip]

I agree. I have not yet seen enough to justify this conclusion to the
exclusion of other interpretations, but I also have not yet had access
to most of the literature on this particular topic to see what
additional arguments there might be.

[snip]

Assuming that Hlawitschka did give some particular reason/s for rejecting a
possible relationship through Gerberga/Guepa of Burgundy in favour of one
through her sister Mathilde and the latter's daughter Berta, could you tell
us what he says about this matter and the inheritance or otherwise of
comital rights in Geneva?

He says nothing about it in the articles I have seen. His main topic
was the relatives of Rudolf von Rheinfelden, whose sister evidently
married Gerold (Hlawitschka's conclusion based on Gerold being called
a "sororinus" of Rudolf). Thus, he was interested in Gerold's
marriages (1st to a sister of Rudolf; 2nd to Teutberga, widow of Louis
of Faucigny), but does not discuss Gerold's father other than to cite
some literature (which I haven't seen).

Stewart Baldwin

Roger LeBlanc

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 02 okt 2006 19:51:01

Perhaps a little more food for thought to follow up on this thread.

It occurs to me that a re-examintation of Otgiva's parentage may warrant
another look at the consanguinity concern between Matilda of Flanders
and William of Normandy that it seems has been largely dismissed. Is it
possible there was anything substantial to the relationship?

Roger LeBlanc

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