Henry Sothill / Joan FitzWilliam

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Henry Sothill / Joan FitzWilliam

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 sep 2006 03:36:02

If Joan FitzWilliam is to be the daughter of William FitzWilliam, Lord of
Emley by his wife Maud Cromwell, then I have her born between 1361 and 1368
and that she married Henry Sothill by 1374

But something is a bit fishy. I have her husband 21 to 33 years older than
her which looks suspiciously like a father-in-law not a husband.

I see that I have placed this item to this Henry Sothill, the husband
'In a deed dated 1353, whereby John son of Thomas de Lascy, gives to John de
Bollyng, Elias de Burton and John de Crossland, chaplain, his manor of
Cromwelbothom, occur as witnesses, Sir Brian de Thornhill, Sir Henry de Sothill,
knights, William de Mirfield, John Sayvell de Eland, Robert de Bollyng,
William de Leventhorp, William de Stansfeld, and Hugh de Coppelay. ' [Stansfield,
p. 118[3]]



But why could not this item be for his father, also Henry Sothill.
That father, than I have "d aft 1410" based on this item
Sir John FitzWilliam*
grantee (by Henry de Soothill) 1410/11,
' of his manor of Rawtonstall' Blackhagh, with all lands thereto
appurtenant in Stansfeld'
which he and others subsequently granted to Henry de Soothill and
his wife Joan (evidently Joan FitzWilliam his sister), 1413

But why could not this item be for the son who actually married Joan.


That is, Henry Sothill is granting the manor, in his OWN right as the
realized heir and then its being granted back probably as a life estate.


This rearrangement would be most settling to the chronological difficulties
in this part of the family in my database.

Will Johnson

Terry J Booth

Re: Henry Sothill / Joan FitzWilliam (Sothill Redux)

Legg inn av Terry J Booth » 24 sep 2006 02:21:02

This couple is notorious for being assigned to a generation or more before
their time. John Ravilious and Rosie Bevans addressed this topic back in
2002, documenting that their 1413 marriage was later than previously
thought. The below borrows from their work and MCA, to which I have made
some additions.

MCA p.349-350 shows Joan Fitzwilliam's older bro Sir John b. 25 Jul 1377,
and her grandfather Sir John b. Feb 1328. Thus she had to be b. a generation
later than 1361-1368. The William Flowers' "The Visitation of Yorkshire in
the Years 1563 and 1564" pedigree for this Fitzwilliam line is online at
books.google.com/books?id=pjMEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA124.

The best source for the Henry Sothill line is the 2002 Ravilious Bevans
postings in 2002. The line was initially stated in Ravilious' Nov 7 2002
posting, but quickly revised in his critical Nov 10 revision that added
another generation of Henry Sothill. Many of the references below were cited
by Ravilous or Bevans.

While MCA, Flowers Yorkshire Visitation and others show the Henry who m.
Joan Fitzwilliam as Sir and/or Knight, and usually show his father as Sir
Henry, both attributions are incorrect and have only encouraged his
misplacement. The key to correctly placing Joan Fitzwilliam's husband starts
with properly identifying the 'missing' Henry generation - the son of Sir
Henry b. ca 1325, d. bef the 1376 marriage of his widow Dionisia ? to Sir
Thomas Markenfield (as his 2nd wife).

The son of Sir Henry and Dionisia was Henry Sothill Esq. [bef 1349 - aft
1410], wife unknown identified in the following :

PRO website FILE - [no title] - ref. DD/SR/209/321 - date: 1369
Contents: Grant: Thomas de Roos, Lord of Hamelak, to Henry de Sothill, rent
of 10 marks. Manor of ?, Yorks [Assuming this is indeed Henry and not Sir
Henry, it suggests Henry Esq was born bef 1349 if this date is correct.]

PRO website FILE - [no title] - ref. DD/SR/26/68 - date: 1 Rich II [1377-8]
Scope and Content : Grant by Sir Thomas de Roos, lord of Hamelak'
(Helmsley,Yk) to his squire Henry de Sothill of an annual rent of 10 marks
from his manor of Rosse (Roos, Yk) for the term of Henry's life

PRO website FILE - [no title] - ref. DD/SR/26/71 - date: 9 Rich II [1385-6]
Scope and Content : Grant by Henry de Sothill' to Gerard de Sothill' his
uncle, John Gates vicar of Dewesbery, Thomas de Wakefeld; chaplain, and John
de Blakewell', chaplain, of his manor of Sothill' etc, paying therefore to
Lady Denise de Merkynfeld' his mother annually for the term of her life the
sum of 12 marks; also he grants to the same all his lands & tenements in
Laxton' with their appurtenances in Hovedenschire etc and also all his lands
and tenements in Berley etc, paying the aforesaid rent to Lady Denise for
the same term; and he also gives to the same all his goods and chattels in
the county of York (Soothill, Yk Howdenshire, Yk Bierley, Yk)

PRO website FILE - [no title] - ref. DD/SR/26/74 - date: 11 Hen IV [1409-10]
Contents : Grant by H[enry] S[otehill'] esquire to Thomas de Inkyingfeld'
and Robert Sotehill', Henry's brother, Sir John Weston, chaplain, Sir John
Dalton, chaplain, and Sir William Skote, vicar of Dewsberi, of his manor of
Sotehill' Ovinden etc and also of his manor of Laxton' in Howdenschir' etc
(Soothill, Yk Ovenden, Yk Laxton, Yk).

Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford:
Deeds and Estate Papers
PRO website FILE - [no title] - ref. DD/SR/26/77 - date: 12 Hen IV [1410-11]
Scope and Content : Grant by Henry Sothyll' to Sir John Fitzwilliam, Randolf
Fitzwilliam, Sir William Scote, perpetual vicar of the church of Dewsbery,
and Sir John Dewsbery, chaplain, of his manor of Rawtonstall' Blackhagh,
with all lands thereto appurtenant in Stansfeld' (Rawtonstall, Yk Blackshaw,
Yk Stansfield, Yk) '

It is the above Henry's son who m. Joan Fitzwilliam on or bef 2 Jun 1413 as
Ravilious and Bevan first noted. Based primarily on the chronology and
family name associations, two Sothill daughters appear assignable to him -
Beatrice Sothill who m. Sir Thomas Markenfield (son of Sir Thomas by his 1st
wife, a dau of [Sir John?] Miniott - their pedigree is found on p.196 of the
above cited online Flowers' Visitation), and Dionisia Sothill who m. Hugh
Tankard. Henry and Joan Sothill's marriage is documented by the following :

Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford:
Deeds and Estate Papers
PRO website FILE - [no title] - ref. DD/SR/26/77 - date: 12 Hen IV [1410-11]
Scope and Content : Grant by Henry Sothyll' to Sir John Fitzwilliam, Randolf
Fitzwilliam, Sir William Scote, perpetual vicar of the church of Dewsbery,
and Sir John Dewsbery, chaplain, of his manor of Rawtonstall' Blackhagh,
with all lands thereto appurtenant in Stansfeld' (Rawtonstall, Yk Blackshaw,
Yk Stansfield, Yk) '

PRO website FILE - [no title] - ref. DD/SR/26/83 - date: 1 Hen V [1413-14]
Scope and Content : Quitclaim by John Fitzwilliam, knight [Joan's brother],
Randolf [presumably Joan's bro Ralph] Fitzwilliam, and John Dewsbery,
chaplain, in favour of Henry de Sotyll' and Joan his wife of their claim to
the manor of Rowtonstall' and Blakschage with lands and tenements thereto
appurtenant in Stansfeld' (Rawtonstall, Yk Blackshaw, Yk Stansfield, Yk) '

PRO website FILE - Grant - ref. WWM/D/79 - date: 2 Jun 1413
Scope and Content : Sir John Fitzwilliam and Randolph Fitzwilliam to Henry
de Sotyll and Joan his wife. Manor of Derton, with all appurtenances.
Witnesses: William Sprotburgh, chaplain, Thomas Dycenson, chaplain, John
Melton, Richard Wyntworth, and Richard Staynton. At Derton, the morrow of
the Ascension, 1413. Seals: (1) armorial, shield of arms, lozengy: crest on
a helmet, out of the ducal coronet, a plume of feathers. Legend indistinct.
Round, 2½ cms. red, on tag. (2) tag, seal missing

Henry Sothill wrote a will in 1420/21 (not seen - does someone have access)
naming John his heir :

PRO website FILE - [no title] - ref. DD/SR/26/85 - date: 9 Hen V [1421-2]
Scope and Content : Grant by Henry de Sutyll', esquire, to William Myrfeld',
esquire, William Scott, perpetual vicar of the church of Dewesbery, Richard
Wyntteworth' of Helmesalle and William Byrton' of Gomersall' of his manor of
Sutyll' (Soothill, Yk) etc

PRO website FILE - [no title] - ref. DD/SR/26/86 - date: 1421
Scope and Content : Will of Henry de Sutyll', esquire, providing inter alia
that the residuum of his goods not bequeathed and the profits of his lands
etc shall be held by William Myrfeld' esquire and the others mentioned in 85
[i.e. DD/SR/26/85] for the use of his children until his son John reaches 21

Henry was living 1430/31 but d. bef 1455/56. Joan then m. William
Birton/Byrton and sued John for dower :

PRO website FILE - [no title] - ref. DD/SR/26/87 - date: 9 Hen VI [1430-1]
Scope and Content : Attornment by Henry de Suthyll', esquire, of William
Byrton' of Gomersall' for livery of seisin in his manor of Suthyll'
(Soothill, Yk) etc to William Myrfeld', esquire, William Scott, perpetual
vicar of the church of Dewsbery, and Richard Wyntteworth'

PRO website FILE - [no title] - ref. DD/SR/26/89 - date: 34 Hen VI [1455-6]
Scope and Content: Quitclaim by William Mirfeld', esquire in favour of John
Sotehill' of his claim to the manor of Suthill (Soothill, Yk)

PRO website FILE - ref. Court of Chancery: Six Clerks Office: Early
Proceedings, Richard II to Philip and Mary C 1/38/177 - date:[1386-1486]
William Birton and Johanne his wife, late wife of Henry Southill. v. John
Southill, son of the said Henry and Johanne.: Dower in the manor of
Southill. Outrageous conduct of defendant.: York.

As an aside, I recently discovered the following intriguing document - could
this be Sir Henry's wife ?
PRO website FILE - [no title] - ref. DD/SR/28/1/16 - date: 1320
Scope and Content : Indenture witnessing grant by Dionysia daughter of
William de Custeworth' to Henry de Suthill', knight of all her tenements in
and out of Custeworth' (?Cusworth, Yk)
[Question - Could the date be wrong - was 13 Edw III (i.e. 1340/41) misread
as 13 Edw II (i.e.1320/21).

Terry Booth

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