Vermandois connections

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Roger LeBlanc

Vermandois connections

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 19 sep 2006 06:21:01

With respect to the recent doubts which have been expressed about the
link between the ninth century counts Heriberts I and II of Vermandois,
-added to the dubious standing which Beatrix, wife of Robert I now
enjoys, I was wondering what we are left with. Also there is the unnamed
wife of Count Udo, of whom Stewart Baldwin posted the following to
Gen-Med in Apr. 2002 with the subject line "Heribert of Kinziggau, part 2b"

"...1. Count Udo (d. 949) is known to have married a daughter of count
Heribert I of Vermandois [Flodoard's Annals s.a. 946, MGH SS 3, 393,
which states that Udo was married to a paternal aunt ("amita") of Hugh,
archbishop of Rheims, who was a son of Heribert II, son of Heribert I of
Vermandois]. ..."

I am guessing one might wish to qualify the above to emphasize the
connection between the wife of Udo and Heribert II, with the implication
that she (and Heribert II) were children of Heribert I. Have I
misinterpreted this in any way, and is there any other corroboration for
the link -Udo's wife to Heribert I?

At the same time, with the removal of Beatrix' Vermandois connection,
the constraint no longer exists against Beatrix being the mother of
Heribert II's wife (also of unknown name), and allowing the latter to be
a full sister to Hugues le Grand/the Great.

Roger LeBlanc

Peter Stewart

Re: Vermandois connections

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 19 sep 2006 12:28:41

"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:450F6EF4.1080403@mts.net...
With respect to the recent doubts which have been expressed about the link
between the ninth century counts Heriberts I and II of Vermandois, -added
to the dubious standing which Beatrix, wife of Robert I now enjoys, I was
wondering what we are left with. Also there is the unnamed wife of Count
Udo, of whom Stewart Baldwin posted the following to Gen-Med in Apr. 2002
with the subject line "Heribert of Kinziggau, part 2b"

"...1. Count Udo (d. 949) is known to have married a daughter of count
Heribert I of Vermandois [Flodoard's Annals s.a. 946, MGH SS 3, 393, which
states that Udo was married to a paternal aunt ("amita") of Hugh,
archbishop of Rheims, who was a son of Heribert II, son of Heribert I of
Vermandois]. ..."

I am guessing one might wish to qualify the above to emphasize the
connection between the wife of Udo and Heribert II, with the implication
that she (and Heribert II) were children of Heribert I. Have I
misinterpreted this in any way, and is there any other corroboration for
the link -Udo's wife to Heribert I?

It is clear from Flodoard that Count Udo's wife was a sister of Heribert
II - he noted that Count Arnulf I of Flanders was maried to the sister of
Heribert II's son Hugo, who contested the archbishopric of Rheims, and Count
Udo to his paternal aunt, and that they were his supporters along with Udo's
brother Hermann who became duke of Swabia. The presumption that Heribert II
was son of Heribert I is a strong one.

At the same time, with the removal of Beatrix' Vermandois connection, the
constraint no longer exists against Beatrix being the mother of Heribert
II's wife (also of unknown name), and allowing the latter to be a full
sister to Hugues le Grand/the Great.

Quite so. There is a much later source stating that Robert I, king of
Franks, was married to a sister of Count Heribert II, but there are good
reasons to conclude that this was not Beatrix, the mother of his son Hugo
Magnus and probably also of the unnamed wife of Count Heribert II of
Vermandois.

However, in 907, some years after the births of these two children, Robert
occurs with a Countess Adela - Constance Bouchard has plausibly suggested
that this was his wife rather than his daughter: consequently she may have
been his second wife and possibly from the family of Vermandois that
definitely used the name Adela before and after her generation.

The idea of Karl Werner that Beatrix survived to be Robert I's widow is not
based on sound evidence - the source adduced for this is a charter of her
son Hugo that does not call her "regina", a title she ought to have been
given if she had outlived King Robert. The evidence is consistent with
Beatrix dying before 907 and Robert marrying a second wife named Adela,
whether or not the latter was a sister to Count Heribert II of Vermandois.

Peter Stewart

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