On Tim's site
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/wc19/wc19_308.htm
we see that Agnes's first husband William Brudenell was dead by Jun 1425
and they had at least one child.
So Agnes herself must have been at least of child-bearing age, so born before
1412
Now we also see that her grandfather Richard Bulstrode was
Comptroller of Household to Edward IV
Edward IV was born in 1442 and surely Richard would not be more than say 70
years old in this position.
Using the minimum in the male-line of 34 years from grandfather to
granddaughter we get that Agnes Bulstrode must be born between 1404 and 1412
Then also her son Edward Brudenell must be born between 1417 and 1426
Will Johnson
A tight chronology for Agnes (Bulstrode) Brudenell
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: A tight chronology for Agnes (Bulstrode) Brudenell
WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:
I had a quick look through my notes this afternoon, and found an
annotation I made to my Brudenell tree stating that Agnes was the
daughter of Thomas Bulstrode (rather than Robert son of Richard, as per
Tim's site). Unfortunately, I do not have the references for this
statement to hand. I will try to locate them when I have a chance.
Michael
On Tim's site
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/wc19/wc19_308.htm
we see that Agnes's first husband William Brudenell was dead by Jun 1425
and they had at least one child.
So Agnes herself must have been at least of child-bearing age, so born before
1412
Now we also see that her grandfather Richard Bulstrode was
Comptroller of Household to Edward IV
Edward IV was born in 1442 and surely Richard would not be more than say 70
years old in this position.
Using the minimum in the male-line of 34 years from grandfather to
granddaughter we get that Agnes Bulstrode must be born between 1404 and 1412
I had a quick look through my notes this afternoon, and found an
annotation I made to my Brudenell tree stating that Agnes was the
daughter of Thomas Bulstrode (rather than Robert son of Richard, as per
Tim's site). Unfortunately, I do not have the references for this
statement to hand. I will try to locate them when I have a chance.
Michael
Then also her son Edward Brudenell must be born between 1417 and 1426
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: A tight chronology for Agnes (Bulstrode) Brudenell
mjcar@btinternet.com schrieb:
Actually, I think the problem here is a confusion between two men named
Richard Bulstrode, separated by several generations. Richard,
grandfather of Agnes was not Richard, comptroller to Edward IV.
See http://www.bolstridge.org.uk/family/tree/i2570.htm
WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:
On Tim's site
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/wc19/wc19_308.htm
we see that Agnes's first husband William Brudenell was dead by Jun 1425
and they had at least one child.
So Agnes herself must have been at least of child-bearing age, so born before
1412
Now we also see that her grandfather Richard Bulstrode was
Comptroller of Household to Edward IV
Edward IV was born in 1442 and surely Richard would not be more than say 70
years old in this position.
Using the minimum in the male-line of 34 years from grandfather to
granddaughter we get that Agnes Bulstrode must be born between 1404 and 1412
I had a quick look through my notes this afternoon, and found an
annotation I made to my Brudenell tree stating that Agnes was the
daughter of Thomas Bulstrode (rather than Robert son of Richard, as per
Tim's site). Unfortunately, I do not have the references for this
statement to hand. I will try to locate them when I have a chance.
Actually, I think the problem here is a confusion between two men named
Richard Bulstrode, separated by several generations. Richard,
grandfather of Agnes was not Richard, comptroller to Edward IV.
See http://www.bolstridge.org.uk/family/tree/i2570.htm
-
Gjest
Re: A tight chronology for Agnes (Bulstrode) Brudenell
mjcar@btinternet.com schrieb:
VCH Bucks sub Chalfont hedges its bets, and calls her daughter of
"Robert or Richard".
I had a quick look through my notes this afternoon, and found an
annotation I made to my Brudenell tree stating that Agnes was the
daughter of Thomas Bulstrode (rather than Robert son of Richard, as per
Tim's site).
VCH Bucks sub Chalfont hedges its bets, and calls her daughter of
"Robert or Richard".
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: A tight chronology for Agnes (Bulstrode) Brudenell
In message of 17 Sep, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Of the five references I give, four say Agnes' dad was Robert and one
that he was Richard and Ronny Bodine and Thos Spalding say his name was
unknown and:
"The Bulstrode Ancestry is extremely confused. HAB, 3: 238 offers a
number of conflicting accounts."
'HAB' is Lipscomb's "The History and Antiquities of the County of
Buckingham". I see that I quoted from vols II and IV and did not find
this gem in Vol III, p. 238, note 5 but which concludes that Robert was
the chappie's name, though the earlier generations are a tad fraught.
I would be very interested to hear of other source documents that shine
a clearer light on the matter.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:
On Tim's site
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/wc19/wc19_308.htm
we see that Agnes's first husband William Brudenell was dead by Jun
1425 and they had at least one child.
So Agnes herself must have been at least of child-bearing age, so
born before 1412
Now we also see that her grandfather Richard Bulstrode was
Comptroller of Household to Edward IV
Edward IV was born in 1442 and surely Richard would not be more than
say 70 years old in this position.
Using the minimum in the male-line of 34 years from grandfather to
granddaughter we get that Agnes Bulstrode must be born between 1404
and 1412
I had a quick look through my notes this afternoon, and found an
annotation I made to my Brudenell tree stating that Agnes was the
daughter of Thomas Bulstrode (rather than Robert son of Richard, as
per Tim's site). Unfortunately, I do not have the references for this
statement to hand. I will try to locate them when I have a chance.
Of the five references I give, four say Agnes' dad was Robert and one
that he was Richard and Ronny Bodine and Thos Spalding say his name was
unknown and:
"The Bulstrode Ancestry is extremely confused. HAB, 3: 238 offers a
number of conflicting accounts."
'HAB' is Lipscomb's "The History and Antiquities of the County of
Buckingham". I see that I quoted from vols II and IV and did not find
this gem in Vol III, p. 238, note 5 but which concludes that Robert was
the chappie's name, though the earlier generations are a tad fraught.
I would be very interested to hear of other source documents that shine
a clearer light on the matter.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
Matt Tompkins
Re: A tight chronology for Agnes (Bulstrode) Brudenell
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
For what it is worth, Joan Wake, who investigated the Brudenells'
ancestry thoroughly, said (in The Brudenells of Deene [London, 1953],
p.
:
'Edmund, the nephew and heir of Edmund [Brudenell] Antiquissimus was
the son of William Brudenell and Agnes his wife, daughter and heiress
of Robert Bulstrode of Hedgerley and Chalfont St Peter in the county of
Buckingham.'
She doesn't give a source, though it would presumably have been
something in the Brudenell MSS, which she used extensively. Some of
the 15th- and 16th-century Brudenells were of an antiquarian bent, with
a special interest in their own ancestry, so the MSS contain quite a
bit of contemporary evidence. There is also the Liber Brudenellorum,
'a compilation made chiefly by Thomas Brudenell, afterwards first Earl
of Cardigan, before the Civil Wars, of all the material he could find
relating to his own family and to the families related to it by
marriage'.
The contemporary court rolls of the manor of Chalfont St Peter come
frustratingly close to providing the answer. The roll of the court
held on 22 January 1422 contains an entry to the effect that 'Edmund
son of William Brudenell did fealty and acknowledged holding from the
lord all the land and tenement called Boterfeldes late Wakeleyns and
Wodyngfeldes, by what service is not known, therefore he was given a
day to enquire and show his evidences at the next court held here.'
In other words Edmund, through his wife Agnes the new lord of the
adjacent manor of Bulstrodes in CSP, has acquired Butterfield's farm in
the main manor of CSP, but no one knows what dues are owed by the
holding, so he is told to bring his title deeds to the next court.
With any luck the farm was one of the lands which were brought to him
by his wife, and the next court will record that he holds by virtue of
his wife Agnes, the daughter and heir of ...... - who? Robert
Bulstrode?
Unfortunately Edmund doesn't turn up at the next court (he is fined
3d), and the court rolls for the following 20 years have been lost!
Matt Tompkins
Of the five references I give, four say Agnes' dad was Robert and one
that he was Richard and Ronny Bodine and Thos Spalding say his name was
unknown and:
"The Bulstrode Ancestry is extremely confused. HAB, 3: 238 offers a
number of conflicting accounts."
'HAB' is Lipscomb's "The History and Antiquities of the County of
Buckingham". I see that I quoted from vols II and IV and did not find
this gem in Vol III, p. 238, note 5 but which concludes that Robert was
the chappie's name, though the earlier generations are a tad fraught.
I would be very interested to hear of other source documents that shine
a clearer light on the matter.
For what it is worth, Joan Wake, who investigated the Brudenells'
ancestry thoroughly, said (in The Brudenells of Deene [London, 1953],
p.
'Edmund, the nephew and heir of Edmund [Brudenell] Antiquissimus was
the son of William Brudenell and Agnes his wife, daughter and heiress
of Robert Bulstrode of Hedgerley and Chalfont St Peter in the county of
Buckingham.'
She doesn't give a source, though it would presumably have been
something in the Brudenell MSS, which she used extensively. Some of
the 15th- and 16th-century Brudenells were of an antiquarian bent, with
a special interest in their own ancestry, so the MSS contain quite a
bit of contemporary evidence. There is also the Liber Brudenellorum,
'a compilation made chiefly by Thomas Brudenell, afterwards first Earl
of Cardigan, before the Civil Wars, of all the material he could find
relating to his own family and to the families related to it by
marriage'.
The contemporary court rolls of the manor of Chalfont St Peter come
frustratingly close to providing the answer. The roll of the court
held on 22 January 1422 contains an entry to the effect that 'Edmund
son of William Brudenell did fealty and acknowledged holding from the
lord all the land and tenement called Boterfeldes late Wakeleyns and
Wodyngfeldes, by what service is not known, therefore he was given a
day to enquire and show his evidences at the next court held here.'
In other words Edmund, through his wife Agnes the new lord of the
adjacent manor of Bulstrodes in CSP, has acquired Butterfield's farm in
the main manor of CSP, but no one knows what dues are owed by the
holding, so he is told to bring his title deeds to the next court.
With any luck the farm was one of the lands which were brought to him
by his wife, and the next court will record that he holds by virtue of
his wife Agnes, the daughter and heir of ...... - who? Robert
Bulstrode?
Unfortunately Edmund doesn't turn up at the next court (he is fined
3d), and the court rolls for the following 20 years have been lost!
Matt Tompkins
-
Matt Tompkins
Re: A tight chronology for Agnes (Bulstrode) Brudenell
Matt Tompkins wrote:
Duh, got mixed up there. Edmund was the *son* of Agnes Bulstrode. The
next court would perhaps have recorded that his right in Butterfield's
farm derived from his maternal grandfather .... ?Robert Bulstrode.
Matt
In other words Edmund, through his wife Agnes the new lord of the
adjacent manor of Bulstrodes in CSP, has acquired Butterfield's farm in
the main manor of CSP, but no one knows what dues are owed by the
holding, so he is told to bring his title deeds to the next court.
With any luck the farm was one of the lands which were brought to him
by his wife, and the next court will record that he holds by virtue of
his wife Agnes, the daughter and heir of ...... - who? Robert
Bulstrode?
Duh, got mixed up there. Edmund was the *son* of Agnes Bulstrode. The
next court would perhaps have recorded that his right in Butterfield's
farm derived from his maternal grandfather .... ?Robert Bulstrode.
Matt
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: A tight chronology for Agnes (Bulstrode) Brudenell
In message of 18 Sep, "Matt Tompkins" <mllt1@le.ac.uk> wrote:
More clarification, thanks.
Testamenta Vetusta, vol I, pp. 282-4 has the long will of this Edmund
Bulstrode and the footnotes therein say he was the son of William
Bulstrode who had married Agnes, daughter and heir of Robert Bulstrode.
As usual the compiler of this collection of wills, Nicholas Nicolas,
gives no source for his identification.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Matt Tompkins wrote:
In other words Edmund, through his wife Agnes the new lord of the
adjacent manor of Bulstrodes in CSP, has acquired Butterfield's farm in
the main manor of CSP, but no one knows what dues are owed by the
holding, so he is told to bring his title deeds to the next court.
With any luck the farm was one of the lands which were brought to him
by his wife, and the next court will record that he holds by virtue of
his wife Agnes, the daughter and heir of ...... - who? Robert
Bulstrode?
Duh, got mixed up there. Edmund was the *son* of Agnes Bulstrode. The
next court would perhaps have recorded that his right in Butterfield's
farm derived from his maternal grandfather .... ?Robert Bulstrode.
More clarification, thanks.
Testamenta Vetusta, vol I, pp. 282-4 has the long will of this Edmund
Bulstrode and the footnotes therein say he was the son of William
Bulstrode who had married Agnes, daughter and heir of Robert Bulstrode.
As usual the compiler of this collection of wills, Nicholas Nicolas,
gives no source for his identification.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/