I'm having trouble posting, so not only have I tried once again to post to
more than one list address, but I subscribed from my other e-mail address.
Someone said they were having trouble posting from aol, and roadrunner is
closely linked to aol. Sending my posts to gen-medieval@rootsweb.com is
no more working than sending them to gen-medieval-l@rootsweb.com. Part of
the problem could be that they are somehow all translating into
gen-medieval-l@rootsweb2.com. Like, ????????????? If the listowner would
contact me, I will send my bounce notices. If my posts aren't reacing the
list, I don't know if adding -owner or wahtever is going to reach the
listowner.
I am researching my motherin law's French Canadian ancestry, and want to
know where the olive skin and black hair came from. Her ancestry
disproportionately came from Brittany and Normandy, and way less from the
rest of France than did her husband's mother's French Canadian ancestors.
The "Percheron Immigration" played a key role in today's French Canadian
ancestry because they were early, concentrated, and prolific.
People who belong to family associations associated with my mother in law's
families seem to nearly all have olive skin and dark hair. The trait is
common among French Canadians, but more of them are fair skinned and blonde,
including my mother in law's ex-husband's mother's people.
Please don't tell me about "Celts". I don' t think so. The Celts have
the original complex ethnic history, and at one time took up all of central
and western Europe and the British Isles.
Could be Old Europeans. They had dark skin and hair. DNA testing tells
us that their descendants remain concentrated in western Europe and the
British Isles. The Old Europeans are the people who lived in Europe before
the first waves of migratino from the Steppes got there, and were descended
from people who lived in Spain at the end of the last ice age. The Basques
are the purest descendants of them.
I am wondering if Jews and Moors who were expelled from Spain (and their
lives were miserable from the time of the Spanish Inquisition until they
were expelled), and fled in large numbers to the Spanish Netherlands, where
they became Catholics but did not assimilate, and eventually tended to
become radical Protestants; later they were driven to Holland and some over
the border of Germany, thus accounting for my father's dark-skinned
Pennsylvania-Dutch ancestors, as well as the skilled weavers and Mennonites
of Germantown. They had learned to weave in Flanders, and could
actually have been weavers in Spain.
Wikipedia says not all that much is actually known about where the Spanish
Jews and Moors went, and they eventually ended up south - but the Moors who
were expelled from Spain numbered maybe 300,000. It is a very logical
explanation of both people in the Netherlands who look African,
Mediterranean and Middle Eastern, and great concentrations of poorly
assimilated people in that region apparently waiting to become radical
Protestants. Why were they really poorly assimilated?
Perche is located west of Paris on the edge of Normandy, and formerly was in
Normandy. At the French Revolution it was divided into parts of teh states
of Orne, Eure, Eure-et-Loir, and Sarthe. The chief towns are
Mortagne-au-Perche, Nogent-le-Rotrou, Belleme, St-Cosmes-de-Vair, Tourouvre,
and Logny-au-Perche.
PErche apparently contains just about the only forest left in France.
Atleast not in the Alps. According to the Perche-Canada web site, Perche
was setlled mainly during the demographic expansion of the 11th through 13th
centuries. Research tells me taht this expansion was the result of the
medieval warming period when the population of Europe increased mightily
before the little ice age and the plague hit at the beginning of the 14th
century.
The County of Perche was formed by a medieval count who united his county
with two nearby signeuries. After his death shortly after 1200, the
county was passed to sons and brothers of the King of France. Somehow it
was a separate country - though I wonder if the web sites ahve that concept
confused with that of a county. It was finally incorporated into the
kingdom of FRance, which formerly it was not, in 1525. I am trying to
imagine an area sandwiched between the Ile de France and Normandy as a
separate country until 1525. I think maybe it was actually one of medieval
fiefdoms ruled by nobles who resisted centralized government by the French
king.
How predominant is dark skin and hair among the people of Brittany and
Normandy, and where did it actually come from?
Did Perche get an influx of people on the 11th through 13th centuries from
anywhere in particular, or from any particular social strata? They
apparently developed an unusual attitude of independence, and those who
migrated to Canada had a spirit of adventure and a wish for economic gain
that was entirly foreign to the majority of Catholic peasants the French
crown sent to New Canada. Yet their social status was not unusual; they
were laborers and carpenters.
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com
--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/395 - Release Date: 7/21/2006
Need to know ethnic history of Normandy and Brittany, partic
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Paul J Gans
Re: Need to know ethnic history of Normandy and Brittany, pa
"Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@yahoo.com> wrote:
There is a recent book about the early history of Perche titled
_Power and Border Lordship in Medieval France_ and subtitled
"The County of the Perche, 1000-1226" by Kathleen Thompson,
Boydell, 2002. ISBN 0 86193 254 4
Unlike the case in England where after the conquest all land
derived from the King; in France much land was held independently
of the King. In other words, it belonged to its lord by right.
The King was recognized only as the first among equals (peers).
The king's own lands were originally concentrated around the
Isle de France and centered on Paris.
A major attempt to incorporate *all* of France into the king's
lands began with Philip II and lasted several generations. Some
lands were taken by conquest. Normandy being one such example.
In others the lord surrendered the lands "voluntarily" to the king
who then generously gave them back in fief to their former lord.
Thus what you say is generally correct, but the emphasis isn't
quite right.
---- Paul J. Gans
Perche is located west of Paris on the edge of Normandy, and formerly was in
Normandy. At the French Revolution it was divided into parts of teh states
of Orne, Eure, Eure-et-Loir, and Sarthe. The chief towns are
Mortagne-au-Perche, Nogent-le-Rotrou, Belleme, St-Cosmes-de-Vair, Tourouvre,
and Logny-au-Perche.
There is a recent book about the early history of Perche titled
_Power and Border Lordship in Medieval France_ and subtitled
"The County of the Perche, 1000-1226" by Kathleen Thompson,
Boydell, 2002. ISBN 0 86193 254 4
PErche apparently contains just about the only forest left in France.
Atleast not in the Alps. According to the Perche-Canada web site, Perche
was setlled mainly during the demographic expansion of the 11th through 13th
centuries. Research tells me taht this expansion was the result of the
medieval warming period when the population of Europe increased mightily
before the little ice age and the plague hit at the beginning of the 14th
century.
The County of Perche was formed by a medieval count who united his county
with two nearby signeuries. After his death shortly after 1200, the
county was passed to sons and brothers of the King of France. Somehow it
was a separate country - though I wonder if the web sites ahve that concept
confused with that of a county. It was finally incorporated into the
kingdom of FRance, which formerly it was not, in 1525. I am trying to
imagine an area sandwiched between the Ile de France and Normandy as a
separate country until 1525. I think maybe it was actually one of medieval
fiefdoms ruled by nobles who resisted centralized government by the French
king.
Unlike the case in England where after the conquest all land
derived from the King; in France much land was held independently
of the King. In other words, it belonged to its lord by right.
The King was recognized only as the first among equals (peers).
The king's own lands were originally concentrated around the
Isle de France and centered on Paris.
A major attempt to incorporate *all* of France into the king's
lands began with Philip II and lasted several generations. Some
lands were taken by conquest. Normandy being one such example.
In others the lord surrendered the lands "voluntarily" to the king
who then generously gave them back in fief to their former lord.
Thus what you say is generally correct, but the emphasis isn't
quite right.
---- Paul J. Gans
-
Dora Smith
Re: Need to know ethnic history of Normandy and Brittany, pa
Thanksfor clarifying that. My college history course focused on the
different political development of France and England, so I knew the
monarchy went from very weak to autocratic and all powerful, none of which
gave democratic institutions much of a chance, but I missed the detail where
French land did not belong to France.
I still want to know the ethnic background of the people of Brittany and
Normandy.
I'm heading for the libraries thsi weekend, if anyone can recommend more
reading material.
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: Need to know ethnic history of Normandy and Brittany,
particularly Perche
--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/395 - Release Date: 7/21/2006
different political development of France and England, so I knew the
monarchy went from very weak to autocratic and all powerful, none of which
gave democratic institutions much of a chance, but I missed the detail where
French land did not belong to France.
I still want to know the ethnic background of the people of Brittany and
Normandy.
I'm heading for the libraries thsi weekend, if anyone can recommend more
reading material.
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: Need to know ethnic history of Normandy and Brittany,
particularly Perche
"Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@yahoo.com> wrote:
Perche is located west of Paris on the edge of Normandy, and formerly was
in
Normandy. At the French Revolution it was divided into parts of teh
states
of Orne, Eure, Eure-et-Loir, and Sarthe. The chief towns are
Mortagne-au-Perche, Nogent-le-Rotrou, Belleme, St-Cosmes-de-Vair,
Tourouvre,
and Logny-au-Perche.
There is a recent book about the early history of Perche titled
_Power and Border Lordship in Medieval France_ and subtitled
"The County of the Perche, 1000-1226" by Kathleen Thompson,
Boydell, 2002. ISBN 0 86193 254 4
PErche apparently contains just about the only forest left in France.
Atleast not in the Alps. According to the Perche-Canada web site, Perche
was setlled mainly during the demographic expansion of the 11th through
13th
centuries. Research tells me taht this expansion was the result of the
medieval warming period when the population of Europe increased mightily
before the little ice age and the plague hit at the beginning of the 14th
century.
The County of Perche was formed by a medieval count who united his county
with two nearby signeuries. After his death shortly after 1200, the
county was passed to sons and brothers of the King of France. Somehow it
was a separate country - though I wonder if the web sites ahve that
concept
confused with that of a county. It was finally incorporated into the
kingdom of FRance, which formerly it was not, in 1525. I am trying to
imagine an area sandwiched between the Ile de France and Normandy as a
separate country until 1525. I think maybe it was actually one of
medieval
fiefdoms ruled by nobles who resisted centralized government by the French
king.
Unlike the case in England where after the conquest all land
derived from the King; in France much land was held independently
of the King. In other words, it belonged to its lord by right.
The King was recognized only as the first among equals (peers).
The king's own lands were originally concentrated around the
Isle de France and centered on Paris.
A major attempt to incorporate *all* of France into the king's
lands began with Philip II and lasted several generations. Some
lands were taken by conquest. Normandy being one such example.
In others the lord surrendered the lands "voluntarily" to the king
who then generously gave them back in fief to their former lord.
Thus what you say is generally correct, but the emphasis isn't
quite right.
---- Paul J. Gans
--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/395 - Release Date: 7/21/2006
-
V. Chris and Tom Tinney,
Re: Need to know ethnic history of Normandy and Brittany, pa
Dora Smith wrote:
Margaret Deanesly, M.A.,
A History of Early Medieval Europe 476 to 911,
(London: Methuen & Co., Ltd., 1956), p. 75,
mentions that: "The Roman diocese of Africa
included the coastal strip south of the gulf
of the Great Syrtes westward nearly to the
promontory opposite the modern Gibraltar
[Tingis]: the province of Tingitana formed
part of the prefecture of the Gauls." Evidence
of the presence of organized Jewish communities
in England and France is shown in the eating
habits of the local population.
Rabbi Bernard Susser notes in his (1993)
edition of The Jews of South-West England,
"some connection between the inhabitants of
Devon and Cornwall and the dwellers on the
Palestinian coastline is shown by food habits
which they still hold in common. Both areas
use saffron in cooking, particularly in the
baking of cakes. In these two regions as well
as in Brittany, which was also under Celtic
influence, clotted cream is manufactured."
Additionally, "A further indication of some
degree of intercourse between the ancient
Israelites and Celts is said to be the
similarity in sound and meaning of words
and phrases in the Hebrew and Celtic
languages."
The Journal of Near Eastern Studies, Vol. XVI,
(January- October 1957), has the article:
"The Problem of Ancient Oriental Shipping
on the North Sea", by B. Lundman. He states
that on all the Frisian Islands [See: Frisian
and Free, Study of an ethnic minority of
The Netherlands, by Cynthia Keppley Mahmood,
1989], quite a number of people with huge
curved noses and darker coloring are found.
There are also instances of a similar type
found in the coastal areas of the British Isles.
These darker skin colored people, with slightly
thick lips, have almost "Jewish" noses, and
convex "Iberian, nay Assyrian profiles".
This is similar to the population of
Cornwall, England with Semitic traces of
the Jewish-Armenoid type. Significantly,
as noted by Fig. 4- Ancient sea routes
between Asia Minor and the North, include
connections to Cyprus, the Etruscans,
southern Spain, northwest France, western
Ireland, south and west England, including
both the passage through the English Channel
and that around the north of Scotland.
"Mixed Armenoid types similar to those found
in western Europe exist in an area from
southwestern Arabia" and along the Persian Golf,
thence east and southwards along the western
and southwestern coast of India.
According to The Oxford Illustrated History
of the Vikings, (1997), "Towards the end of
the seventh century a significant increase
of trade between the Continent and England
led to the development of several relatively
large trading centres:
Dorestad on the Rhine,
Quentovic near Boulogne,
and, in England,
Hamwic (the precursor of Southampton),
Fordwich (the port of Canterbury),
London,
Ipswich, and
York.
Trade grew even faster after about A.D. 700,
when the Frisians obtained a very large stock
of silver from an unidentified source and
produced from it a huge supply of coinage that
quickly spread throughout the continent and
in England." As noted before, B. Lundman
states that on all the Frisian Islands, quite
a number of people with huge curved noses and
darker coloring are found. There are also
instances of a similar type found in the
coastal areas of the British Isles. These
darker skin colored people, with slightly
thick lips, have almost "Jewish" noses, and
convex "Iberian, nay Assyrian profiles".
This is similar to the population of Cornwall,
England with Semitic traces of the Jewish-
Armenoid type. A Map showing Frisian trade
in the west, from the seventh to tenth centuries
A.D., is show in Fig. 30, opposite page 75, in
The Transformation of the Roman World,
A.D. 400 to 900, published 1997; edited by
Leslie Webster and Michelle Brown.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Who's Who in America,
Millennium Edition [54th] through 2004
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.academic-genealogy.com/
How predominant is dark skin and hair among the people of Brittany and
Normandy, and where did it actually come from?
REPLY:
Margaret Deanesly, M.A.,
A History of Early Medieval Europe 476 to 911,
(London: Methuen & Co., Ltd., 1956), p. 75,
mentions that: "The Roman diocese of Africa
included the coastal strip south of the gulf
of the Great Syrtes westward nearly to the
promontory opposite the modern Gibraltar
[Tingis]: the province of Tingitana formed
part of the prefecture of the Gauls." Evidence
of the presence of organized Jewish communities
in England and France is shown in the eating
habits of the local population.
Rabbi Bernard Susser notes in his (1993)
edition of The Jews of South-West England,
"some connection between the inhabitants of
Devon and Cornwall and the dwellers on the
Palestinian coastline is shown by food habits
which they still hold in common. Both areas
use saffron in cooking, particularly in the
baking of cakes. In these two regions as well
as in Brittany, which was also under Celtic
influence, clotted cream is manufactured."
Additionally, "A further indication of some
degree of intercourse between the ancient
Israelites and Celts is said to be the
similarity in sound and meaning of words
and phrases in the Hebrew and Celtic
languages."
The Journal of Near Eastern Studies, Vol. XVI,
(January- October 1957), has the article:
"The Problem of Ancient Oriental Shipping
on the North Sea", by B. Lundman. He states
that on all the Frisian Islands [See: Frisian
and Free, Study of an ethnic minority of
The Netherlands, by Cynthia Keppley Mahmood,
1989], quite a number of people with huge
curved noses and darker coloring are found.
There are also instances of a similar type
found in the coastal areas of the British Isles.
These darker skin colored people, with slightly
thick lips, have almost "Jewish" noses, and
convex "Iberian, nay Assyrian profiles".
This is similar to the population of
Cornwall, England with Semitic traces of
the Jewish-Armenoid type. Significantly,
as noted by Fig. 4- Ancient sea routes
between Asia Minor and the North, include
connections to Cyprus, the Etruscans,
southern Spain, northwest France, western
Ireland, south and west England, including
both the passage through the English Channel
and that around the north of Scotland.
"Mixed Armenoid types similar to those found
in western Europe exist in an area from
southwestern Arabia" and along the Persian Golf,
thence east and southwards along the western
and southwestern coast of India.
According to The Oxford Illustrated History
of the Vikings, (1997), "Towards the end of
the seventh century a significant increase
of trade between the Continent and England
led to the development of several relatively
large trading centres:
Dorestad on the Rhine,
Quentovic near Boulogne,
and, in England,
Hamwic (the precursor of Southampton),
Fordwich (the port of Canterbury),
London,
Ipswich, and
York.
Trade grew even faster after about A.D. 700,
when the Frisians obtained a very large stock
of silver from an unidentified source and
produced from it a huge supply of coinage that
quickly spread throughout the continent and
in England." As noted before, B. Lundman
states that on all the Frisian Islands, quite
a number of people with huge curved noses and
darker coloring are found. There are also
instances of a similar type found in the
coastal areas of the British Isles. These
darker skin colored people, with slightly
thick lips, have almost "Jewish" noses, and
convex "Iberian, nay Assyrian profiles".
This is similar to the population of Cornwall,
England with Semitic traces of the Jewish-
Armenoid type. A Map showing Frisian trade
in the west, from the seventh to tenth centuries
A.D., is show in Fig. 30, opposite page 75, in
The Transformation of the Roman World,
A.D. 400 to 900, published 1997; edited by
Leslie Webster and Michelle Brown.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Who's Who in America,
Millennium Edition [54th] through 2004
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.academic-genealogy.com/