Thursday, 31 August, 2006
Dear Brad, Will, Tim, Alex, et al.,
While in the course of reviewing notes and records
concerning the existing Hastings thread, I came upon an
interesting matter concerning an earlier Hastings generation
that appears to tie a few threads together.
Among several details in the Hastings pedigree in the 1563
Visitation (of Yorkshire) record, there is included the
following for a daughter of Henry de Hastings (d. bef 5 Mar
1268/9) and his wife Joan de Cantilupo:
' Alda wyff fyrst to John ap Meredyth & after to
Robert de Champayne, Knight. ' [1]
To date, I had not researched these individuals further,
other than suggesting a possible connection between this 'Sir
Robert de Champayne' and the 'Maud de Campaign' who married
into the Hiltons of Swine and Winestead. Others have
connected Ada de Hastings to one Rhys 'Mechyll', indicating
that the name John ap Meredyth in the Visitation pedigree is
erroneous, in part or in whole. It is evident that this
was in fact Rhys 'Mechyll' ap Maredudd, lord (or 'prince' as
you may prefer) of Dryslwyn, who was executed in 1292.
I have found the record of a dispensation granted by Pope
Martin IV, in a letter to Thomas, Bishop of St. Davids, dated
at Orvieto on 10 December 1283. This dispensation was required
because Rhys ap Maredudd and Ada de Hastings were related in
the third and fourth degrees of consanguinity [2].
Ada de Hastings had no Welsh ancestor within 4 generations
(up to her great-great grandparents), so it is evident that
there is a English (or Anglo-Norman) or other non-Welsh
ancestor of Rhys ap Maredudd. One possibility that I considered
was Maud de Clare, widow of William de Braose (d. 1210) and wife
(2ndly) of Rhys Gryg. I am not aware of any issue of this
marriage of Rhys Gryg, but more importantly, the de Braose
relationship this would create would be too distant (on the
side of Ada de Hastings, anyway) to create a need for a
dispensation.
The one other possibility was that Maredudd ap Rhys was
the son of Rhys 'Mechyll' (d. 1244) by Maud de Braose, and
that Maud was the daughter of Reginald de Braose (d. ca. 1228)
by Grace de Briwere. This identification would yield the
relationship of 3rd & 4th degrees stipulated in the
dispensation, as follows:
Reginald de Braose = 1) Grace de Briwere
___________________________I______________
I I
William de = Eva le Rhys 'Mechyll' = Maud de
Braose I Marshal d. 1244 I Braose
exe. 1230 I I
I I
William de = Eve de Maredudd ap Rhys
Cantilupo I Braose d. aft 1270
d. 1254 I I
I I
I I
Joan de = Henry de I
Cantilupo I Hastings I
d. bef June 1271 I d. 1268 I
I________ ________I
I I
Ada de = Rhys 'Mechyll'
Hastings ap Maredudd
This serves to correct the identification of Maredudd
ap Rhys, father of Rhys 'Mechyll' (ex. 1292) as a son, not of
Rhys Gryg ap Rhys (ap Gruffydd, aka 'the Lord Rhys'), but of
Rhys 'Mechyll' ap Rhys (d. 1244) by his wife Maud de Braose.
Further, this serves to confirm that this Maud de Braose was
a daughter of Reginald de Braose, as previously suggested
(strongly and otherwise) by Doug Thompson and others [3].
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Visitation of Yorkshire, HSP 16:154.
[2] A. W. Haddan and William Stubbs, eds., Councils and
Ecclesiastical Documents relating to Great Britain
and Ireland (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1869), I:551-2.
The text reads, in part,
' Martinus Episcopus servus servorum Dei, venerabili fratri
[Thomae] Episcopo Men., salutem et Apostolicam benedictionem.
Quantum cum Deo possimus hijs libenter annuimus, per quae
dissidentes ad pacis solatium reducantur. Ex parte siquidem
nobilis viri Resi Mereduci et nobilis mulieris Audae de
Hastinges tuae dyocesis fuit propositum coram nobis, quod
ex inimicitiis et guerris, dudum inter ejusdem R. ex parte
una et ipsius A. progenitores ex altera suscitatis, et
rerum et personarum pericula plurima sunt secuta, et adhuc
durant odia inter superstites eorundem; unde dicti R. et
A., sperantes per matrimonialem communicationem ipsorum
posse super praemissis plene reconciliationis commoda
provenire, desiderant invicem propter hoc matrimonialiter
copulari. Sed quia dicti Resus et Auda tertio ex una
parte et quarto ex altera consanguinitatis gradu ad
invicem se contingunt,..... '
[3] Cf. Doug Thompson, <Briouze consanguinity problem>, SGM,
19 Oct 2002.
Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux
Dear John ~
The family history of Sir Rhys ap Maredudd, husband of Ada de Hastings,
is discussed at some length by Bridgeman in his interesting work,
History of the Princes of South Wales (1876). Sir Rhys and his wife,
Ada, needed a dispensation to marry because they had a common descent
from Sir William Marshal (died 1219), 4th Earl of Pembroke, as
indicated below:
1. William Marshal, Knt., Earl of Pembroke, died 1219, married Isabel
de Clare.
2. _____ (unidentified child).
3. _____ [niece of Gilbert Marshal, Earl of Pembroke], married
1234/1241 Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg, of Drosslwyn and Llandovery Castles,
he died 22 July 1271. Reference: Bridgeman, History of the Princes of
South Wales (1876): 111-150, 174-179, 185-202.
4. Rhys ap Maredudd, Knt., son and heir. He married by papal
dispensation dated 10 Dec. 1283 (they being related in the 3rd and 4th
degrees of kindred) Ada de Hastings (see below). He was tried at York
soon after Michaelmas 1291, and there cruelly executed. His wife, Ada,
was dead sometime before 1308-9. References: Bridgeman, History of
the Princes of South Wales (1876): 185-202. Papal Regs.: Letters 1
(1893): 470.
1. William Marshal, Knt., Earl of Pembroke, died 1219, married Isabel
de Clare.
2. Eve Marshal, married William de Brewes.
3. Eve de Brewes, married William de Cantelowe.
4. Joan de Cantelowe, married Henry de Hastings.
5. Ada de Hastings, married Rhys ap Maredudd, Knt. (see above).
Best always, Douglas Richardson
The family history of Sir Rhys ap Maredudd, husband of Ada de Hastings,
is discussed at some length by Bridgeman in his interesting work,
History of the Princes of South Wales (1876). Sir Rhys and his wife,
Ada, needed a dispensation to marry because they had a common descent
from Sir William Marshal (died 1219), 4th Earl of Pembroke, as
indicated below:
1. William Marshal, Knt., Earl of Pembroke, died 1219, married Isabel
de Clare.
2. _____ (unidentified child).
3. _____ [niece of Gilbert Marshal, Earl of Pembroke], married
1234/1241 Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg, of Drosslwyn and Llandovery Castles,
he died 22 July 1271. Reference: Bridgeman, History of the Princes of
South Wales (1876): 111-150, 174-179, 185-202.
4. Rhys ap Maredudd, Knt., son and heir. He married by papal
dispensation dated 10 Dec. 1283 (they being related in the 3rd and 4th
degrees of kindred) Ada de Hastings (see below). He was tried at York
soon after Michaelmas 1291, and there cruelly executed. His wife, Ada,
was dead sometime before 1308-9. References: Bridgeman, History of
the Princes of South Wales (1876): 185-202. Papal Regs.: Letters 1
(1893): 470.
1. William Marshal, Knt., Earl of Pembroke, died 1219, married Isabel
de Clare.
2. Eve Marshal, married William de Brewes.
3. Eve de Brewes, married William de Cantelowe.
4. Joan de Cantelowe, married Henry de Hastings.
5. Ada de Hastings, married Rhys ap Maredudd, Knt. (see above).
Best always, Douglas Richardson
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux
Dear Doug,
Many thanks for your reply, and the (apparent) need for
revision to the relationship between Rhys and Ada as per my prior post.
Bridgeman's indication of a relationship between Maredudd ap
Rhys and an unidentified granddaughter of William Marshal is most
interesting. How is this relationship identified by Bridgeman? It
sounds like a derivation from a source identifying her as 'neptis' to
Gilbert Marshal, Earl of Pembroke. There are certain sisters (Sibyl
and Joan, for two) who could not have been the mother of such a child.
Cheers,
John
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Many thanks for your reply, and the (apparent) need for
revision to the relationship between Rhys and Ada as per my prior post.
Bridgeman's indication of a relationship between Maredudd ap
Rhys and an unidentified granddaughter of William Marshal is most
interesting. How is this relationship identified by Bridgeman? It
sounds like a derivation from a source identifying her as 'neptis' to
Gilbert Marshal, Earl of Pembroke. There are certain sisters (Sibyl
and Joan, for two) who could not have been the mother of such a child.
Cheers,
John
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear John ~
The family history of Sir Rhys ap Maredudd, husband of Ada de Hastings,
is discussed at some length by Bridgeman in his interesting work,
History of the Princes of South Wales (1876). Sir Rhys and his wife,
Ada, needed a dispensation to marry because they had a common descent
from Sir William Marshal (died 1219), 4th Earl of Pembroke, as
indicated below:
1. William Marshal, Knt., Earl of Pembroke, died 1219, married Isabel
de Clare.
2. _____ (unidentified child).
3. _____ [niece of Gilbert Marshal, Earl of Pembroke], married
1234/1241 Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg, of Drosslwyn and Llandovery Castles,
he died 22 July 1271. Reference: Bridgeman, History of the Princes of
South Wales (1876): 111-150, 174-179, 185-202.
4. Rhys ap Maredudd, Knt., son and heir. He married by papal
dispensation dated 10 Dec. 1283 (they being related in the 3rd and 4th
degrees of kindred) Ada de Hastings (see below). He was tried at York
soon after Michaelmas 1291, and there cruelly executed. His wife, Ada,
was dead sometime before 1308-9. References: Bridgeman, History of
the Princes of South Wales (1876): 185-202. Papal Regs.: Letters 1
(1893): 470.
1. William Marshal, Knt., Earl of Pembroke, died 1219, married Isabel
de Clare.
2. Eve Marshal, married William de Brewes.
3. Eve de Brewes, married William de Cantelowe.
4. Joan de Cantelowe, married Henry de Hastings.
5. Ada de Hastings, married Rhys ap Maredudd, Knt. (see above).
Best always, Douglas Richardson
-
Gjest
Re: Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux
John P. Ravilious wrote:
The ODNB identifies (or did, when I last looked) the wife of Maredudd
ap Rhys Gryg as Isabel, daughter of the William Marshal who d.1231-
obviously, she must have been illegitimate; *if* this was the case. The
hyperlink from Maredudd's entry leads to the younger Marshal, but ISTR
that there was no mention in the latter's biography of this alleged
daughter. Possibly they used a Welsh genealogy as the source, as it
coincides with Bartrum's version, where Maredudd is married to Isabel,
daughter of 'William Marshal II'.
-Matthew
Dear Doug,
Many thanks for your reply, and the (apparent) need for
revision to the relationship between Rhys and Ada as per my prior post.
Bridgeman's indication of a relationship between Maredudd ap
Rhys and an unidentified granddaughter of William Marshal is most
interesting. How is this relationship identified by Bridgeman? It
sounds like a derivation from a source identifying her as 'neptis' to
Gilbert Marshal, Earl of Pembroke. There are certain sisters (Sibyl
and Joan, for two) who could not have been the mother of such a child.
Cheers,
John
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear John ~
The family history of Sir Rhys ap Maredudd, husband of Ada de Hastings,
is discussed at some length by Bridgeman in his interesting work,
History of the Princes of South Wales (1876). Sir Rhys and his wife,
Ada, needed a dispensation to marry because they had a common descent
from Sir William Marshal (died 1219), 4th Earl of Pembroke, as
indicated below:
1. William Marshal, Knt., Earl of Pembroke, died 1219, married Isabel
de Clare.
2. _____ (unidentified child).
3. _____ [niece of Gilbert Marshal, Earl of Pembroke], married
1234/1241 Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg, of Drosslwyn and Llandovery Castles,
he died 22 July 1271. Reference: Bridgeman, History of the Princes of
South Wales (1876): 111-150, 174-179, 185-202.
4. Rhys ap Maredudd, Knt., son and heir. He married by papal
dispensation dated 10 Dec. 1283 (they being related in the 3rd and 4th
degrees of kindred) Ada de Hastings (see below). He was tried at York
soon after Michaelmas 1291, and there cruelly executed. His wife, Ada,
was dead sometime before 1308-9. References: Bridgeman, History of
the Princes of South Wales (1876): 185-202. Papal Regs.: Letters 1
(1893): 470.
1. William Marshal, Knt., Earl of Pembroke, died 1219, married Isabel
de Clare.
2. Eve Marshal, married William de Brewes.
3. Eve de Brewes, married William de Cantelowe.
4. Joan de Cantelowe, married Henry de Hastings.
5. Ada de Hastings, married Rhys ap Maredudd, Knt. (see above).
Best always, Douglas Richardson
The ODNB identifies (or did, when I last looked) the wife of Maredudd
ap Rhys Gryg as Isabel, daughter of the William Marshal who d.1231-
obviously, she must have been illegitimate; *if* this was the case. The
hyperlink from Maredudd's entry leads to the younger Marshal, but ISTR
that there was no mention in the latter's biography of this alleged
daughter. Possibly they used a Welsh genealogy as the source, as it
coincides with Bartrum's version, where Maredudd is married to Isabel,
daughter of 'William Marshal II'.
-Matthew
-
taf
Re: Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux
[inappropriate cross-posting removed]
I would be a little careful of this unless a specific source can be
identified. In a discussion months back, we learned that the same
source identifies Fulk de Sandford as illegitimate son of either Fulk
Basset or Geoffrey Basset (otherwise childless), simply because he was
nephew of Phillip Basset and they were his brothers, completely
ignoring a possible route through Phillip's sisters, one of whom
married a Sandford. It may be nothing more than a confused guess.
Todd
The ODNB identifies (or did, when I last looked) the wife of Maredudd
ap Rhys Gryg as Isabel, daughter of the William Marshal who d.1231-
obviously, she must have been illegitimate; *if* this was the case. The
hyperlink from Maredudd's entry leads to the younger Marshal, but ISTR
that there was no mention in the latter's biography of this alleged
daughter. Possibly they used a Welsh genealogy as the source, as it
coincides with Bartrum's version, where Maredudd is married to Isabel,
daughter of 'William Marshal II'.
I would be a little careful of this unless a specific source can be
identified. In a discussion months back, we learned that the same
source identifies Fulk de Sandford as illegitimate son of either Fulk
Basset or Geoffrey Basset (otherwise childless), simply because he was
nephew of Phillip Basset and they were his brothers, completely
ignoring a possible route through Phillip's sisters, one of whom
married a Sandford. It may be nothing more than a confused guess.
Todd
-
Gjest
Re: Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux
taf wrote:
Apologies, I hadn't noticed that.
we've seen in many instances. I was just speculating that ODNB may have
used, as the source of its information, one of the Welsh pedigrees
consulted by Bartrum; which may well be of a later date, and/or
misinterpreted, as you say. The two accounts coincide, but they don't
provide support for one another- as John stated, there is still a need
for primary evidence.
-Matthew
[inappropriate cross-posting removed]
Apologies, I hadn't noticed that.
The ODNB identifies (or did, when I last looked) the wife of Maredudd
ap Rhys Gryg as Isabel, daughter of the William Marshal who d.1231-
obviously, she must have been illegitimate; *if* this was the case. The
hyperlink from Maredudd's entry leads to the younger Marshal, but ISTR
that there was no mention in the latter's biography of this alleged
daughter. Possibly they used a Welsh genealogy as the source, as it
coincides with Bartrum's version, where Maredudd is married to Isabel,
daughter of 'William Marshal II'.
I would be a little careful of this unless a specific source can be
identified. In a discussion months back, we learned that the same
source identifies Fulk de Sandford as illegitimate son of either Fulk
Basset or Geoffrey Basset (otherwise childless), simply because he was
nephew of Phillip Basset and they were his brothers, completely
ignoring a possible route through Phillip's sisters, one of whom
married a Sandford. It may be nothing more than a confused guess.
Quite, Bartrum has numerous errors, as (unfortunately) does ODNB, as
we've seen in many instances. I was just speculating that ODNB may have
used, as the source of its information, one of the Welsh pedigrees
consulted by Bartrum; which may well be of a later date, and/or
misinterpreted, as you say. The two accounts coincide, but they don't
provide support for one another- as John stated, there is still a need
for primary evidence.
-Matthew
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux
In message of 1 Sep, mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
ODNB will accept corrections, indeed that have accepted a couple of
mine, so it is worthwhile getting some evidence together and passing it
on to them.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Quite, Bartrum has numerous errors, as (unfortunately) does ODNB, as
we've seen in many instances. I was just speculating that ODNB may
have used, as the source of its information, one of the Welsh
pedigrees consulted by Bartrum; which may well be of a later date,
and/or misinterpreted, as you say. The two accounts coincide, but they
don't provide support for one another- as John stated, there is still
a need for primary evidence.
ODNB will accept corrections, indeed that have accepted a couple of
mine, so it is worthwhile getting some evidence together and passing it
on to them.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/