The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox & Prim

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D. Spencer Hines

The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox & Prim

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 19 aug 2006 16:05:41

Hilarious!

Leticia Cluff [what a name] is still frothing at the mouth and coming on
like a Bull Dyke who is having a bad-hair day.

She is obviously sow-ignorant of the roots of the _Droit de Cuissage_ or
_Jus Primae Noctis_.

We all know that the Standard Classical Latin for "First Night" is _Prima
Nox_ -- so Cluff, even in the Duff, is merely spinning her wheels wildly on
that one.

But the 20th and 21st Century Anglo-Latin Formulation For the _Jus Primae
Noctis_ -- Much More Evocative, Euphonious, Lubricious and Lascivious, To
Both The Eye And The Ear, Is _Prima Nocta_.

Live With It...

How Sweet It Is!

Victoria, It Just Doesn't Get Any Better Than This.

Enjoy!

http://www.fibri.de/jus/arthbes.htm

Jörg Wettlaufer

This is a preprint version! The article has been published in: Evolution
and Human Behavior, Vol 21, Nr. 2 (2000): 111-123. Please cite only the
printed version!

Abstract:

The jus primae noctis was, in the European late medieval context, a
widespread popular belief in an ancient privilege of the lord of the manor
to share the wedding bed with his peasants' brides. Symbolic gestures,
reflecting this belief, were developed by the lords and used as humiliating
signs of superiority over the dependent peasants in the 15th century, a time
of diminishing status differences. Actual intercourse in the exercise of the
alleged right is difficult to prove, and there is no hard evidence to
suggest that it ever actually happened. However, the symbolic gestures can
be best interpreted as a male power display with a basis in the psychology
of coercive social dominance, male competition, and male desire for sexual
variety. Several non-European cultures have accounts of a similar custom
related to a young girl's first sexual intercourse: ritual defloration by
chiefs, priests or strangers. This non-European custom differs from the jus
primae noctis in its proximate details, but seems, from an ultimate point of
view, to be in conformity with the European evidence. In this paper the
origin, development and relationship of both customs is discussed and
interpreted in the light of recent evolutionary studies of primate behavior
and sexual psychology.

Key Words: Jus primae noctis, power display behavior, wedding customs,
medieval history, ritual defloration, despotism and differential
reproduction.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The existence of a jus primae noctis in the Middle Ages was an eagerly
disputed topic in the nineteenth century (Schmidt 1881, 1884; Pfannenschmid
1883; Hanauer 1893; cf. Schmidt-Bleibtreu 1988). Although most historians
would agree today that there is no authentic proof of the actual exercise of
the custom in the Middle Ages, disagreements persist concerning the origin,
meaning and development of a widespread popular belief in this alleged
"right" and the existence of symbolic gestures associated with it (Barros
1993; Boureau 1995; Sorlin 1987; Wettlaufer 1994, 1999). These symbolic
gestures have not yet been discussed in the light of evolutionary studies of
sexual psychology, although they seem to be of relevance to the reproductive
prospects of dominant males, at least indirectly through the display of
status.

In this paper, I argue that: (1) the right of the first night is a very old
theme (topos) in Eurasian literature, reflecting the relationship between
status and mating success; (2) in the later Middle Ages, a popular belief in
the sexual privilege of a lord of the manor on the wedding night was used by
some lords to display their superiority over their dependent peasants in a
time of diminishing status differences; (3) ritual defloration, as seen in
other cultures, was very often performed by persons of high status (chiefs,
priests) and therefore fits into the picture of a strong and widespread
relationship between despotism and differential reproduction in traditional
societies; and (4) Jus primae noctis and ritual defloration reflect a common
underlying adaptive psychology that gave rise to these customs in human
cultures."...

Leticia Cluff

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 19 aug 2006 17:37:33

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:05:41 +0100, someone pressed the Heinz
Dispenser to squirt the following all over my monitor:

Hilarious!

Leticia Cluff [what a name] is still frothing at the mouth and coming on
like a Bull Dyke who is having a bad-hair day.

She is obviously sow-ignorant of the roots of the _Droit de Cuissage_ or
_Jus Primae Noctis_.

We all know that the Standard Classical Latin for "First Night" is _Prima
Nox_ -- so Cluff, even in the Duff, is merely spinning her wheels wildly on
that one.

But the 20th and 21st Century Anglo-Latin Formulation For the _Jus Primae
Noctis_ -- Much More Evocative, Euphonious, Lubricious and Lascivious, To
Both The Eye And The Ear, Is _Prima Nocta_.

Live With It...


Thank you for admitting that it is not correct Latin but a product of
today's inadequate education. But how do you expect ME to live with
that when you yourself spew your [sic] over everybody else's mistakes?


How Sweet It Is!

Victoria, It Just Doesn't Get Any Better Than This.

Enjoy!

http://www.fibri.de/jus/arthbes.htm


No sign of "prima nocta" there. Just correct Latin.

I knew that an apology was too much to expect from the homophobic
Evangelicofascist, but as a confession of his total moral and
intellectual bankruptcy, the above post is an adequate substitute.

Tish

Grey Satterfield

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Grey Satterfield » 19 aug 2006 18:04:08

On 8/19/06 11:37 AM, in article 1veee2hfuvbv4ufaa1rmlr1hpcges34pmp@4ax.com,
"Leticia Cluff" <tish.nospam.cluff@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:05:41 +0100, someone pressed the Heinz
Dispenser to squirt the following all over my monitor:

Hilarious!

Leticia Cluff [what a name] is still frothing at the mouth and coming on
like a Bull Dyke who is having a bad-hair day.

She is obviously sow-ignorant of the roots of the _Droit de Cuissage_ or
_Jus Primae Noctis_.

We all know that the Standard Classical Latin for "First Night" is _Prima
Nox_ -- so Cluff, even in the Duff, is merely spinning her wheels wildly on
that one.

But the 20th and 21st Century Anglo-Latin Formulation For the _Jus Primae
Noctis_ -- Much More Evocative, Euphonious, Lubricious and Lascivious, To
Both The Eye And The Ear, Is _Prima Nocta_.

Live With It...


Thank you for admitting that it is not correct Latin but a product of
today's inadequate education. But how do you expect ME to live with
that when you yourself spew your [sic] over everybody else's mistakes?



How Sweet It Is!

Victoria, It Just Doesn't Get Any Better Than This.

Enjoy!

http://www.fibri.de/jus/arthbes.htm


No sign of "prima nocta" there. Just correct Latin.

I knew that an apology was too much to expect from the homophobic
Evangelicofascist, but as a confession of his total moral and
intellectual bankruptcy, the above post is an adequate substitute.

Tish


Indeed, Spencer has learned form his mistakes at other times, I have noted
-- although never in the form of an apology to my knowledge.

Grey Satterfield

Eve McLaughlin

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Eve McLaughlin » 19 aug 2006 18:34:45

all know that the Standard Classical Latin for "First Night" is _Prima
Nox_ -- so Cluff, even in the Duff, is merely spinning her wheels wildly on
that one.

But the 20th and 21st Century Anglo-Latin Formulation For the _Jus Primae
Noctis_ -- Much More Evocative, Euphonious, Lubricious and Lascivious, To
Both The Eye And The Ear, Is _Prima Nocta_.

But wrong, very wrong. Go back to school.

--
Eve McLaughlin

Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians
Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Leticia Cluff

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 20 aug 2006 18:22:47

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:34:45 +0100, Eve McLaughlin
<eve@varneys.demon.co.uk> wisely wrote:

all know that the Standard Classical Latin for "First Night" is _Prima
Nox_ -- so Cluff, even in the Duff, is merely spinning her wheels wildly on
that one.

But the 20th and 21st Century Anglo-Latin Formulation For the _Jus Primae
Noctis_ -- Much More Evocative, Euphonious, Lubricious and Lascivious, To
Both The Eye And The Ear, Is _Prima Nocta_.

But wrong, very wrong. Go back to school.


I fear that school would be unable to help an Internet kook who
prefers gutter slang to classical Latin. In his peculiar Orwellian
newspeak, wrong is right.

That Prima Nocta site must have given the lascivious old bugger a
frisson sufficient to addle his brain. I bet he was on the phone to
Australia instantly.

Tish

Renia

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Renia » 21 aug 2006 00:13:09

Leticia Cluff wrote:
<snippitied>


I love your name. I want to be called Leticia Cluff.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 aug 2006 00:17:27

Hilarious!

Renia the wannabe.

DSH

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:ecaqa0$l7u$1@mouse.otenet.gr...

Leticia Cluff wrote:
snippitied


I love your name. I want to be called Leticia Cluff.

Renia

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Renia » 21 aug 2006 00:28:34

Hubby once had an ancestress called Priscilla Tredinnick which I think
is a gorgeous name.

Unfortunately, his auntie had gone up the wrong genealogical tree, so we
had to dispose of Priscilla.

But never mind, we found the magnificently-named Tryphena Scamp instead.

I think I even prefer my sons' ancestress's name to Leticia's, now I
think of it.


D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Hilarious!

Renia the wannabe.

DSH

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:ecaqa0$l7u$1@mouse.otenet.gr...


Leticia Cluff wrote:
snippitied


I love your name. I want to be called Leticia Cluff.



D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 aug 2006 00:46:02

Priscilla Tredinnick.

Tryphena Scamp.

Yes, both are quite excellent.

Renia is just fine too.

Pamela Beryl Digby Churchill Harriman [1920-1997] is an excellent name as
well.

My cousin. <g>

_Letitia Cluff_ was reportedly one of those girl pilots, aviatrices, in the
James Bond film _Goldfinger_ who were led by Pussy Galore [Honor Blackman]
in the knock-out gas attack on the United States Bullion [Gold] Depository
at Fort Knox.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:ecar6t$lf8$3@mouse.otenet.gr...

Hubby once had an ancestress called Priscilla Tredinnick which I think is
a gorgeous name.

Unfortunately, his auntie had gone up the wrong genealogical tree, so we
had to dispose of Priscilla.

But never mind, we found the magnificently-named Tryphena Scamp instead.

I think I even prefer my sons' ancestress's name to Leticia's, now I think
of it.


D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Hilarious!

Renia the wannabe.

DSH

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:ecaqa0$l7u$1@mouse.otenet.gr...


Leticia Cluff wrote:
snippitied


I love your name. I want to be called Leticia Cluff.

Grey Satterfield

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Grey Satterfield » 21 aug 2006 01:46:00

On 8/20/06 6:28 PM, in article ecar6t$lf8$3@mouse.otenet.gr, "Renia"
<renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:

Hubby once had an ancestress called Priscilla Tredinnick which I think
is a gorgeous name.

Unfortunately, his auntie had gone up the wrong genealogical tree, so we
had to dispose of Priscilla.

But never mind, we found the magnificently-named Tryphena Scamp instead.

I think I even prefer my sons' ancestress's name to Leticia's, now I
think of it.

My late wife was a serious genealogist and she found a bunch of my
forebears. One of my 18th Century forebears was named Bidwell Satterfield,
which I have always liked a lot. But another, from the 17th Century, a
Jamestown Colony guy, was named John Bates. Yawn.

Anyway, even old Bidwell's name is not in a class with Tryphena's but it may
be in the hunt with Priscilla's.

Goodness, this was even on topic for some of the genealogy groups! Who
knew? :)

Grey Satterfield

Grey Satterfield

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Grey Satterfield » 21 aug 2006 01:49:00

On 8/20/06 6:46 PM, in article dw6Gg.114$15.38@eagle.america.net, "D.
Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

Priscilla Tredinnick.

Tryphena Scamp.

Yes, both are quite excellent.

Renia is just fine too.

Pamela Beryl Digby Churchill Harriman [1920-1997] is an excellent name as
well.

My cousin. <g

I admired old Pam. She was one of the great 20th Century courtesans and an
elegant lady in the bargain. No wonder Averill fell for her.

Grey Satterfield

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 aug 2006 02:03:41

Bidwell is actually a quite distinguished name in New England.

DSH

"Grey Satterfield" <gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote in message
news:C10E6C78.2FBB8%gsatterfield@cox.net...

On 8/20/06 6:28 PM, in article ecar6t$lf8$3@mouse.otenet.gr, "Renia"
renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:

Hubby once had an ancestress called Priscilla Tredinnick which I think
is a gorgeous name.

Unfortunately, his auntie had gone up the wrong genealogical tree, so we
had to dispose of Priscilla.

But never mind, we found the magnificently-named Tryphena Scamp instead.

I think I even prefer my sons' ancestress's name to Leticia's, now I
think of it.

My late wife was a serious genealogist and she found a bunch of my
forebears. One of my 18th Century forebears was named Bidwell
Satterfield,
which I have always liked a lot. But another, from the 17th Century, a
Jamestown Colony guy, was named John Bates. Yawn.

Anyway, even old Bidwell's name is not in a class with Tryphena's but it
may
be in the hunt with Priscilla's.

Goodness, this was even on topic for some of the genealogy groups! Who
knew? :)

Grey Satterfield

Renia

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Renia » 21 aug 2006 02:10:22

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Priscilla Tredinnick.

Tryphena Scamp.

Yes, both are quite excellent.

Renia is just fine too.

Thank you. (Hated it when I was very young because it was so unusual.
But I love it now, for the same reason.)

Pamela Beryl Digby Churchill Harriman [1920-1997] is an excellent name as
well.

My cousin. <g

Are you a Digby, then?

_Letitia Cluff_ was reportedly one of those girl pilots, aviatrices, in the
James Bond film _Goldfinger_ who were led by Pussy Galore [Honor Blackman]
in the knock-out gas attack on the United States Bullion [Gold] Depository
at Fort Knox.

Didn't know that. Not a film buff.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:ecar6t$lf8$3@mouse.otenet.gr...


Hubby once had an ancestress called Priscilla Tredinnick which I think is
a gorgeous name.

Unfortunately, his auntie had gone up the wrong genealogical tree, so we
had to dispose of Priscilla.

But never mind, we found the magnificently-named Tryphena Scamp instead.

I think I even prefer my sons' ancestress's name to Leticia's, now I think
of it.


D. Spencer Hines wrote:


Hilarious!

Renia the wannabe.

DSH

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:ecaqa0$l7u$1@mouse.otenet.gr...



Leticia Cluff wrote:
snippitied


I love your name. I want to be called Leticia Cluff.



D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 aug 2006 02:23:00

Yes, she is actually Pamela Beryl Digby Churchill Hayward Harriman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela_Harriman

Chirac actually did something GOOD at her funeral.

She and I seem to have 713 sets of Common Ancestors, at a minimum -- an
interesting curiosity.

It's _Averell_ rather than _Averill_.

His middle name came from his Mother, Mary Williamson Averell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Averell_Harriman

Pamela spent much of the Harriman fortune and lost some more of it -- making
enemies of Averell's children.

I once had a very nice chat with Averell Harriman -- a very pleasant man
indeed.

He and Pamela were lovers during World War II. Her husband, Randolph,
Winston's son, was an alcoholic.

DSH

"Grey Satterfield" <gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote in message
news:C10E6D2C.2FBBA%gsatterfield@cox.net...

On 8/20/06 6:46 PM, in article dw6Gg.114$15.38@eagle.america.net, "D.
Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

Priscilla Tredinnick.

Tryphena Scamp.

Yes, both are quite excellent.

Renia is just fine too.

Pamela Beryl Digby Churchill Harriman [1920-1997] is an excellent name as
well.

My cousin. <g

I admired old Pam. She was one of the great 20th Century courtesans and
an elegant lady in the bargain. No wonder Averill fell for her.

Grey Satterfield

Grey Satterfield

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Grey Satterfield » 21 aug 2006 03:14:37

On 8/20/06 8:10 PM, in article ecb15q$n5u$1@mouse.otenet.gr, "Renia"
<renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Priscilla Tredinnick.

Tryphena Scamp.

Yes, both are quite excellent.

Renia is just fine too.

Thank you. (Hated it when I was very young because it was so unusual.
But I love it now, for the same reason.)

Yeah, me too. I hated having three last names, Grey Wilson Satterfield, but
I eventually grew into it. My son, Grey Wilson Satterfield III, in stark
contrast to my attitude as a Kid, always liked it. Go figure. I never
minded being a Junior though, which may have been because my parents
assiduously avoided calling me "Junior."

Grey Satterfield

Grey Satterfield

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Grey Satterfield » 21 aug 2006 03:18:53

On 8/20/06 8:23 PM, in article IW7Gg.117$15.38@eagle.america.net, "D.
Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes, she is actually Pamela Beryl Digby Churchill Hayward Harriman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela_Harriman

Chirac actually did something GOOD at her funeral.

She and I seem to have 713 sets of Common Ancestors, at a minimum -- an
interesting curiosity.

It's _Averell_ rather than _Averill_.

His middle name came from his Mother, Mary Williamson Averell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Averell_Harriman

Pamela spent much of the Harriman fortune and lost some more of it -- making
enemies of Averell's children.

I once had a very nice chat with Averell Harriman -- a very pleasant man
indeed.

He and Pamela were lovers during World War II. Her husband, Randolph,
Winston's son, was an alcoholic.

Averell was a consummate gentleman. I admired him, too. In stark contrast,
Randolph was by most accounts a drunken lout and loser who beat Pamela.

Grey Satterfield

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 aug 2006 03:30:09

Pamela Beryl Digby Churchill Hayward Harriman [1920-1997] was a 13th
great-granddaughter of King Henry VII.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

La N

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av La N » 21 aug 2006 03:34:00

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%U8Gg.119$15.1623@eagle.america.net...
Pamela Beryl Digby Churchill Hayward Harriman [1920-1997] was a 13th
great-granddaughter of King Henry VII.


Even *I* like reading about the lives of courtesans, and Pamela definitely
was one.

- nilita

Andrew Chaplin

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Andrew Chaplin » 21 aug 2006 04:58:22

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:ecar6t$lf8$3@mouse.otenet.gr...
Hubby once had an ancestress called Priscilla Tredinnick which I think is a
gorgeous name.

Unfortunately, his auntie had gone up the wrong genealogical tree, so we had
to dispose of Priscilla.

But never mind, we found the magnificently-named Tryphena Scamp instead.

I think I even prefer my sons' ancestress's name to Leticia's, now I think
of it.

Priscilla Tredinnick ain't bad, but I have always thought that _Thankful_
Pomeroy, daughter of her father Medad -- is there a better patronym than
"Medad"? -- was pretty special. She was decidedly better named than her
contemporary relative by marriage Dorcas Plumb. They were only slightly post
mediaeval compared to ourselves.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Renia

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Renia » 21 aug 2006 09:05:29

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Pamela Beryl Digby Churchill Hayward Harriman [1920-1997] was a 13th
great-granddaughter of King Henry VII.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas



Once she became a Harriman she stopped being a Churchill.

Leticia Cluff

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 21 aug 2006 11:01:11

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 02:13:09 +0300, Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr>
wrote:

Leticia Cluff wrote:
snippitied


I love your name. I want to be called Leticia Cluff.


Thanks, Renia, nice to hear something good about my name after all the
misogynous abuse and innuendo divulged by the vullager with the vulgar
Latin.

The Leticia comes from my grandmother, the Cluff came with my husband.

You would not believe my maiden name!

Everyone just calls me

Tish

Vince

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Vince » 21 aug 2006 13:56:20

Renia wrote:
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Pamela Beryl Digby Churchill Hayward Harriman [1920-1997] was a 13th
great-granddaughter of King Henry VII.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas


Once she became a Harriman she stopped being a Churchill.

I dont thnk so

Alma Mahler Gropius Werfel



Alma

The loveliest girl in Vienna
Was Alma, the smartest as well
Once you picked her up on your antenna
You'd never be free of her spell

Her lovers were many and varied
From the day she began her beguine
There were three famous ones whom she married
And God knows how many between

Alma, tell us
All modern women are jealous
Which of your magical wands
Got you Gustav and Walter and Franz

The first one she married was Mahler
Whose buddies all knew him as Gustav
And each time he saw her he'd holler
"Ach, that is the fräulein I moost hav"

Their marriage, however, was murder
He'd scream to the heavens above
"I'm writing 'Das Lied von der Erde'
And she only wants to make love!"

Alma, tell us
All modern women are jealous
You should have a statue in bronze
For bagging Gustav and Walter and Franz

While married to Gus, she met Gropius
And soon she was swinging with Walter
Gus died, and her tear drops were copious
She cried all the way to the altar

But he would work late at the Bauhaus
And only come home now and then
She said, "What am I running, a chow house
It's time to change partners again"

Alma, tell us
All modern women are jealous
Though you didn't even use Ponds
You got Gustav and Walter and Franz

While married to Walt she'd met Werfel
And he too was caught in her net
He married her, but he was carefel
'Cause Alma was no Bernadette

And that is the story of Alma
Who knew how to receive and to give
The body that reached her embalma
Was one that had known how to live

Alma, tell us
How can they help being jealous
Ducks always envy the swans
Who get Gustav and Walter
You never did falter
With Gustav and Walter and Franz

Renia

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Renia » 21 aug 2006 15:44:33

Vince wrote:
Renia wrote:

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Pamela Beryl Digby Churchill Hayward Harriman [1920-1997] was a 13th
great-granddaughter of King Henry VII.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas


Once she became a Harriman she stopped being a Churchill.


I dont thnk so

Alma Mahler Gropius Werfel

She was born a Digby and married a Churchill. Divorced Randolph
Churchill, and eventually married Averell(sp?) Harriman. Thus, she
stopped being a Churchill regardless of whether she kept the name.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 aug 2006 17:53:00

Nope.

She had a third husband in between Randolph Churchill and Averell
Harriman -- Leland Hayward.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leland_Hayward

DSH

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:eccgsc$a8s$1@mouse.otenet.gr...

She was born a Digby and married a Churchill. Divorced Randolph Churchill,
and eventually married Averell(sp?) Harriman. Thus, she stopped being a
Churchill regardless of whether she kept the name.

Renia

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Renia » 21 aug 2006 18:26:34

I know that.

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Nope.

She had a third husband in between Randolph Churchill and Averell
Harriman -- Leland Hayward.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leland_Hayward

DSH

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:eccgsc$a8s$1@mouse.otenet.gr...


She was born a Digby and married a Churchill. Divorced Randolph Churchill,
and eventually married Averell(sp?) Harriman. Thus, she stopped being a
Churchill regardless of whether she kept the name.



John Brandon

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av John Brandon » 21 aug 2006 19:01:46

You would not believe my maiden name!

Pecksniff?

David J. Hughes

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av David J. Hughes » 22 aug 2006 01:44:14

Vince wrote:
Renia wrote:

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Pamela Beryl Digby Churchill Hayward Harriman [1920-1997] was a 13th
great-granddaughter of King Henry VII.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas


Once she became a Harriman she stopped being a Churchill.


I dont thnk so

Alma Mahler Gropius Werfel



Alma

Written, recorded and copyright by Tom Lehrer

The loveliest girl in Vienna
Was Alma, the smartest as well
Once you picked her up on your antenna
You'd never be free of her spell

Her lovers were many and varied
From the day she began her beguine
There were three famous ones whom she married
And God knows how many between

Alma, tell us
All modern women are jealous
Which of your magical wands
Got you Gustav and Walter and Franz

The first one she married was Mahler
Whose buddies all knew him as Gustav
And each time he saw her he'd holler
"Ach, that is the fräulein I moost hav"

Their marriage, however, was murder
He'd scream to the heavens above
"I'm writing 'Das Lied von der Erde'
And she only wants to make love!"

Alma, tell us
All modern women are jealous
You should have a statue in bronze
For bagging Gustav and Walter and Franz

While married to Gus, she met Gropius
And soon she was swinging with Walter
Gus died, and her tear drops were copious
She cried all the way to the altar

But he would work late at the Bauhaus
And only come home now and then
She said, "What am I running, a chow house
It's time to change partners again"

Alma, tell us
All modern women are jealous
Though you didn't even use Ponds
You got Gustav and Walter and Franz

While married to Walt she'd met Werfel
And he too was caught in her net
He married her, but he was carefel
'Cause Alma was no Bernadette

And that is the story of Alma
Who knew how to receive and to give
The body that reached her embalma
Was one that had known how to live

Alma, tell us
How can they help being jealous
Ducks always envy the swans
Who get Gustav and Walter
You never did falter
With Gustav and Walter and Franz

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2006 03:44:15

WRONG.

Averell Harriman was NOT her second husband -- Leland Hayward was.

Your Reading Comprehension is VERY poor.

You also sound VERY ENVIOUS of Pamela -- and catty about it.

DSH

""Mary Lou McLaren"" <mlou1173@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BAY120-F26BF7E96C3F157AD13D9FCD0460@phx.gbl...
D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Pamela Beryl Digby Churchill Hayward Harriman [1920-1997] was a 13th
great-granddaughter of King Henry VII.

And an infamous tart who dispensed her favors liberally to climb both
socially and monetarily. Her second husband, Averill [sic] Harriman,
founded the ski resort where I now live - Sun Valley, Idaho. Their
pictures still hang in the main lodge and she kept a home on the grounds
until her death. The town drips with lore about the "lady".

mary lou

Grey Satterfield

Re: The Droit de Cuissage -- Jus Primae Noctis, Prima Nox &

Legg inn av Grey Satterfield » 22 aug 2006 14:13:40

On 8/21/06 9:44 PM, in article ncuGg.158$15.1993@eagle.america.net, "D.
Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

WRONG.

Averell Harriman was NOT her second husband -- Leland Hayward was.

Your Reading Comprehension is VERY poor.

You also sound VERY ENVIOUS of Pamela -- and catty about it.

DSH

""Mary Lou McLaren"" <mlou1173@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BAY120-F26BF7E96C3F157AD13D9FCD0460@phx.gbl...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Pamela Beryl Digby Churchill Hayward Harriman [1920-1997] was a 13th
great-granddaughter of King Henry VII.

And an infamous tart who dispensed her favors liberally to climb both
socially and monetarily. Her second husband, Averill [sic] Harriman,
founded the ski resort where I now live - Sun Valley, Idaho. Their
pictures still hang in the main lodge and she kept a home on the grounds
until her death. The town drips with lore about the "lady".

mary lou

Pamela Harriman was a courtesan who throughout her life used her, er,
personality to get ahead. But her sexual proclivities notwithstanding, she
was an elegant and charming lady.

Sun Valley is a lovely place. We spent nearly a week there one summer in
the '80s and had a lot of fun.

Grey Satterfield

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