Fw: Louis VI to Charlemagne Fw: Capetien from Charlemagne

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: Louis VI to Charlemagne Fw: Capetien from Charlemagne

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 08 aug 2006 11:25:02

See at the bottom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: Louis VI to Charlemagne Fw: Capetien from Charlemagne


""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:01dc01c6bab9$b7a3a8b0$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
Charlemagne
/
Louis I the Pious
/
Charles the Bald
/
Judith
/
Baudouin II of Flanders
/
Arnulf I of Flanders
/
Hildegard of Flanders
/
Arnulf of Holland

The undisputed line does not carry through to this link - Hildegard is not
proved by direct evidence to belong to the comital family of Flanders,
this is only a conjecture based on her sons given the names Arnulf and
Egbert that occur in Flanders for her putative father Count Arnulf I and
one of his younger sons Egbert (who died before Egbert of Holland was
born). If this is right, Hildegard can only have been a half-sister of
Egbert of Flanders, as his mother Adela of Vermandois was not married to
Arnulf I until late in 934 whereas Hildegard was married by ca 945 at the
latest. No earlier wife of Arnulf I, who could have been her mother, is
recorded.

I am always glad when this kind of remarks are made, as you then have to

double check what you have, and where did it come from. My problem is that I
can only use secondary sources, and here are some.

Genealogie der Graven van Holland, by Dr. A.W.E. Dek, published in 1969
(Dutch) Page 11
Generation III Dirk II Count of Holland, he took in 964 , after the death of
his father-in-law the Count of Flanders, the counties of Gent and the land
of Waas.
He married Hildegard, daughter of Arnulf I, Count of Flanders (no mother
given, when Dek knows mothers-in-law he does give them). Hildegard was born
in an unknown year, she died 10 April 990 (footnote 9)

Footnote 9 (not easy to translate) See about Hildegard Bolhui8s nEVGO II, 6
p. 308 and L. Vanderkinderen, La Formation territoriale des principautes
belges au moyen age, volume 1, 1902, p.77. The day of her death has been
handed on in the Egmond Necrologium p.106, without mention of the year,
however following immediately after the mentioning of the death of Dirk II
(988). According to Joh. a Leydis, Chronicon Belgicum (published by
Sweertius, 1620), p.112 she died 11 April and she was already buried in
Egmond before the death of Dirk II, and so the year of her death could be
988.
(This book has an enormous long sources list)
-----------------------------------------
ES Freytag von Loringhoven edition, Volume II, Tafel 9 Counts of Flanders
Here Arnulf I does not have a daughter Hildegard, but he does die in 964 as
Dr. Dek mentions, but Tafel 4 same book gives Dirk II as married to
Hildegard and questions her father _could_ be Arnulf I of Flanders
----------------------------------------------
ES Schwennicke Volume II Tafel 2, and Tafel 5
Here Dirk II is married to Hildegard of Flanders daughter of Count Arnulf,
no question mark. Tafel 5 makes Arnulf I of Flanders married twice, first to
NN and then to Adele de Vermandois, no indication by any of the children who
is the mother. Hildegard is shown first with a born guessed at 934 and
married 940/945

Sources for Tafel 2 begin with Dr. Deks' book on the Counts of Holland,
followed by a considerable list. Tafels 5-7 also have a huge list including
the same book by Dr. dek. Also Siegfried Rosch Caroli Magni Progenies, as
well as Winkhaus and Erich Brandenburg.
----------------------------------------------------------
Siegfried Rosch in Caroli Magni Progeni, page 168 makes Hildegard a daughter
of Arnulf I of Flanders and his unknown/unnamed first wife.
----------------------------------------------------------

However, as Peter says there is no direct evidence making Hildegard a
daughter of Arnulf I.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

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