Following up on the recent discussion regarding Carolingian descents,
who is the first Capetien monarch with an undisputed descent from
Charlemagne. I'm guessing it would be Louis VI?
Roger LeBlanc
Capetien from Charlemagne
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Capetien from Charlemagne
"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:44D7E2AA.4090503@mts.net...
I assume you mean a line that can be documented fully - if so, how are you
tracing this from Charlemagne to Louis VI?
As to a line of undisputed descent, we can be confident enough that Robert
II had at least one from Charlemagne through his mother Adelais, although
the details are not known to us.
Adalbero, bishop of Laon, who would certainly have known the facts, wrote to
him "Lac tibi suggenti dat nutrix induperatrix" (an imperial nurse gives the
milk that nourished you). Robert himself evidently thought his mother came
from Italian ancestry, suggesting that the link might be through
Charlemagne's son Pippin, king of Italy. He had a daughter of the same name,
and Adelais appears frequently amongst his descendants.
The common assumption that Hugo Capet's wife Adelais was daughter of a count
of Poitou, and granddaughter of the Viking Rollo, is rather preposterous
given the shaky evidence, and the expectation that such relationships would
have been highly interesting to contemporaries who envertheless don't
mention them - the explicit claim first occurs much later.
The celebrated "reditus regni ad stirpem Karoli magni" (return of the
kingdom to the lineage of Charlemagne) fixed on Louis VIII as the first of
Hugo Capet's successors to have the Carolingian dynasty's blood in his
veins. However, this was largely propaganda and due in part to his mother
coming from the family that had made the most fuss over the previous century
or so of its imperial ancestry. His father Philippe II also descended from
Charlemagne, through Matilda of Flanders.
On a quick check I can't see any obvious line earlier than his, but stand to
be corrected with the one you have found to Louis VI.
Peter Stewart
news:44D7E2AA.4090503@mts.net...
Following up on the recent discussion regarding Carolingian descents, who
is the first Capetien monarch with an undisputed descent from Charlemagne.
I'm guessing it would be Louis VI?
I assume you mean a line that can be documented fully - if so, how are you
tracing this from Charlemagne to Louis VI?
As to a line of undisputed descent, we can be confident enough that Robert
II had at least one from Charlemagne through his mother Adelais, although
the details are not known to us.
Adalbero, bishop of Laon, who would certainly have known the facts, wrote to
him "Lac tibi suggenti dat nutrix induperatrix" (an imperial nurse gives the
milk that nourished you). Robert himself evidently thought his mother came
from Italian ancestry, suggesting that the link might be through
Charlemagne's son Pippin, king of Italy. He had a daughter of the same name,
and Adelais appears frequently amongst his descendants.
The common assumption that Hugo Capet's wife Adelais was daughter of a count
of Poitou, and granddaughter of the Viking Rollo, is rather preposterous
given the shaky evidence, and the expectation that such relationships would
have been highly interesting to contemporaries who envertheless don't
mention them - the explicit claim first occurs much later.
The celebrated "reditus regni ad stirpem Karoli magni" (return of the
kingdom to the lineage of Charlemagne) fixed on Louis VIII as the first of
Hugo Capet's successors to have the Carolingian dynasty's blood in his
veins. However, this was largely propaganda and due in part to his mother
coming from the family that had made the most fuss over the previous century
or so of its imperial ancestry. His father Philippe II also descended from
Charlemagne, through Matilda of Flanders.
On a quick check I can't see any obvious line earlier than his, but stand to
be corrected with the one you have found to Louis VI.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Capetien from Charlemagne
Peter Stewart wrote:
Using the very efficient search method on Leo's Genealogics website I
see there is a line from Charlemagne to Louis VII:
Charlemagne
|
Louis the Pious
|
Lothar I
|
Lothar II the Saxon
|
Berta (by his bigamous marriage to Waldrada) married Thibaud of Arles
|
Boso of Tuscany
|
Willa married Berengar II, king of Italy
|
Adalbert
|
Otto William of Burgundy
|
Renaud
|
William I
|
Gisela married Humbert II of Savoy
|
Adelaide married Louis VI of France
|
Louis VII
I haven't spotted a line to Louis VI.
Peter Stewart
"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:44D7E2AA.4090503@mts.net...
Following up on the recent discussion regarding Carolingian descents, who
is the first Capetien monarch with an undisputed descent from Charlemagne.
I'm guessing it would be Louis VI?
I assume you mean a line that can be documented fully - if so, how are you
tracing this from Charlemagne to Louis VI?
Using the very efficient search method on Leo's Genealogics website I
see there is a line from Charlemagne to Louis VII:
Charlemagne
|
Louis the Pious
|
Lothar I
|
Lothar II the Saxon
|
Berta (by his bigamous marriage to Waldrada) married Thibaud of Arles
|
Boso of Tuscany
|
Willa married Berengar II, king of Italy
|
Adalbert
|
Otto William of Burgundy
|
Renaud
|
William I
|
Gisela married Humbert II of Savoy
|
Adelaide married Louis VI of France
|
Louis VII
I haven't spotted a line to Louis VI.
Peter Stewart
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Capetien from Charlemagne
Thanks for the informative reply below Peter, and to everyone else who
contributed.
The two lines I had counted to the mother of Louis VI have both been
discussed; the ones through Hildegarde and the Luxembourg possibility.
It is interesting to see the concerns that exist on both counts. I was
wondering where the safest/surest line would be; it seems to be with
Louis VII.
The quote regarding Robert II's mother has been mentioned before on the
list, and it does seem likely there would be a descent through her as well.
Also interesting that Peter notes the "return of the kingdom etc." This
is referred to in Jim Bradbury's biography of Philippe II, and I
wondered how much stock should be put into it.
Roger LeBlanc
Peter Stewart wrote:
contributed.
The two lines I had counted to the mother of Louis VI have both been
discussed; the ones through Hildegarde and the Luxembourg possibility.
It is interesting to see the concerns that exist on both counts. I was
wondering where the safest/surest line would be; it seems to be with
Louis VII.
The quote regarding Robert II's mother has been mentioned before on the
list, and it does seem likely there would be a descent through her as well.
Also interesting that Peter notes the "return of the kingdom etc." This
is referred to in Jim Bradbury's biography of Philippe II, and I
wondered how much stock should be put into it.
Roger LeBlanc
Peter Stewart wrote:
"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:44D7E2AA.4090503@mts.net...
Following up on the recent discussion regarding Carolingian descents, who
is the first Capetien monarch with an undisputed descent from Charlemagne.
I'm guessing it would be Louis VI?
I assume you mean a line that can be documented fully - if so, how are you
tracing this from Charlemagne to Louis VI?
As to a line of undisputed descent, we can be confident enough that Robert
II had at least one from Charlemagne through his mother Adelais, although
the details are not known to us.
Adalbero, bishop of Laon, who would certainly have known the facts, wrote to
him "Lac tibi suggenti dat nutrix induperatrix" (an imperial nurse gives the
milk that nourished you). Robert himself evidently thought his mother came
from Italian ancestry, suggesting that the link might be through
Charlemagne's son Pippin, king of Italy. He had a daughter of the same name,
and Adelais appears frequently amongst his descendants.
The common assumption that Hugo Capet's wife Adelais was daughter of a count
of Poitou, and granddaughter of the Viking Rollo, is rather preposterous
given the shaky evidence, and the expectation that such relationships would
have been highly interesting to contemporaries who envertheless don't
mention them - the explicit claim first occurs much later.
The celebrated "reditus regni ad stirpem Karoli magni" (return of the
kingdom to the lineage of Charlemagne) fixed on Louis VIII as the first of
Hugo Capet's successors to have the Carolingian dynasty's blood in his
veins. However, this was largely propaganda and due in part to his mother
coming from the family that had made the most fuss over the previous century
or so of its imperial ancestry. His father Philippe II also descended from
Charlemagne, through Matilda of Flanders.
On a quick check I can't see any obvious line earlier than his, but stand to
be corrected with the one you have found to Louis VI.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Capetien from Charlemagne
Roger LeBlanc wrote:
Nowadays the "reditus regni" doctrine is usually treated as propaganda
that came about following the conquests of Philippe II, to underscore
the new quasi-imperial prestige of the Capetian dynasty.
However, I think it's notable that the descents from Charlemagne to
Louis VII and Philippe II are both somewhat circuitous in dynastic
terms, passing through several female links. These did not come about
through a queen who was from a family noted for its Carolingian
ancestry, until Philippe II's marriage to Isabelle of Hainaut that was
held to be a deliberate reuniting of the current (third) and former
(second) royal Frankish dynasties.
It's possible that no-one had thought much about Carolingian blood in
Capetian veins since Bishop Adalbero's poem to Robert II quoted
earlier. In the circumstances of that time, there was no political edge
to be gained from a Carolingian ancestry for Robert, first because this
would not provide a better claim for him than other families could
propose for themselves once the subject was raised, and secondly
because his rights derived from election when nominated by his father
Hugo Capet who evidently had no such descent of his own to bolster
rights to the kingship.
I don't believe that Adalbero would have spoken of Robert's mother
Adelais as "nutrix induperatrix" (an imperial nurse) if she had not
been either directly a member of the Carolingian family (that is
unlikely since no-one else mentions this) or else another of the few
families that had provided emperors - the description would have been
almost nonsensical, or at least satirical, for someone from the
comital/ducal family of Poitou/Aquitaine, for instance, and that does
not fit the context of Adalbero's remark.
The matter is not capable of proof on available evidence, but for what
it's worth my hunch - for a variety of reasons too complicated to
expound here & now - is that Hugo Capet's wife Adelais _may have been_
the heiress of Senlis, a daughter or perhaps niece of Count Bernard
whose own link to Charlemagne presumably came through a female (maybe
named Adela) who married his predecessor (perhaps grandfather) Count
Wido. This lady belonged to the line from Pippin of Peronne, son of
Charlemagne's grandson Bernard, king of Italy, and her husband was
probably related agnatically to the Widonids who ruled in Spoleto and
also attained royal & imperial rank late in the 9th century. If so,
Adelais would have had the Italian background described by her son King
Robert II, and they would have been related somehow to the Norman
rulers, which makes sense of the political relationships that
developed, as according to Dudo this Count Bernard of Senlis called
Richard I (died 996) his "best-loved kinsman" (nepos meus
dilectissimus, meaning nephew or cousin - Dudo changes his mind about
the detail and no other source elaborates this).
Peter Stewart
Thanks for the informative reply below Peter, and to everyone else who
contributed.
The two lines I had counted to the mother of Louis VI have both been
discussed; the ones through Hildegarde and the Luxembourg possibility.
It is interesting to see the concerns that exist on both counts. I was
wondering where the safest/surest line would be; it seems to be with
Louis VII.
The quote regarding Robert II's mother has been mentioned before on the
list, and it does seem likely there would be a descent through her as well.
Also interesting that Peter notes the "return of the kingdom etc." This
is referred to in Jim Bradbury's biography of Philippe II, and I
wondered how much stock should be put into it.
Nowadays the "reditus regni" doctrine is usually treated as propaganda
that came about following the conquests of Philippe II, to underscore
the new quasi-imperial prestige of the Capetian dynasty.
However, I think it's notable that the descents from Charlemagne to
Louis VII and Philippe II are both somewhat circuitous in dynastic
terms, passing through several female links. These did not come about
through a queen who was from a family noted for its Carolingian
ancestry, until Philippe II's marriage to Isabelle of Hainaut that was
held to be a deliberate reuniting of the current (third) and former
(second) royal Frankish dynasties.
It's possible that no-one had thought much about Carolingian blood in
Capetian veins since Bishop Adalbero's poem to Robert II quoted
earlier. In the circumstances of that time, there was no political edge
to be gained from a Carolingian ancestry for Robert, first because this
would not provide a better claim for him than other families could
propose for themselves once the subject was raised, and secondly
because his rights derived from election when nominated by his father
Hugo Capet who evidently had no such descent of his own to bolster
rights to the kingship.
I don't believe that Adalbero would have spoken of Robert's mother
Adelais as "nutrix induperatrix" (an imperial nurse) if she had not
been either directly a member of the Carolingian family (that is
unlikely since no-one else mentions this) or else another of the few
families that had provided emperors - the description would have been
almost nonsensical, or at least satirical, for someone from the
comital/ducal family of Poitou/Aquitaine, for instance, and that does
not fit the context of Adalbero's remark.
The matter is not capable of proof on available evidence, but for what
it's worth my hunch - for a variety of reasons too complicated to
expound here & now - is that Hugo Capet's wife Adelais _may have been_
the heiress of Senlis, a daughter or perhaps niece of Count Bernard
whose own link to Charlemagne presumably came through a female (maybe
named Adela) who married his predecessor (perhaps grandfather) Count
Wido. This lady belonged to the line from Pippin of Peronne, son of
Charlemagne's grandson Bernard, king of Italy, and her husband was
probably related agnatically to the Widonids who ruled in Spoleto and
also attained royal & imperial rank late in the 9th century. If so,
Adelais would have had the Italian background described by her son King
Robert II, and they would have been related somehow to the Norman
rulers, which makes sense of the political relationships that
developed, as according to Dudo this Count Bernard of Senlis called
Richard I (died 996) his "best-loved kinsman" (nepos meus
dilectissimus, meaning nephew or cousin - Dudo changes his mind about
the detail and no other source elaborates this).
Peter Stewart
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Capetien from Charlemagne
With respect to Adelais the wife of Hugh Capet, the election in 987 of
Hugh comes to mind. The objections expressed on that occasion against
Charles of Lower Lorraine's wife's humble origins would suggest there
were no similar objections to be made in the case of Hugh's wife.
Roger LeBlanc
Hugh comes to mind. The objections expressed on that occasion against
Charles of Lower Lorraine's wife's humble origins would suggest there
were no similar objections to be made in the case of Hugh's wife.
Roger LeBlanc
-
Gjest
Re: Capetien from Charlemagne
I think all the descendants of Hugues Capet have prooven carolingian
ancestry through his grand-mother Beatrix, d/o count Heribert I,
himself a descendant of Pepin, king of Italy (+ 810), s/o Charlemagne.
Jean Bunot
Peter Stewart wrote:
ancestry through his grand-mother Beatrix, d/o count Heribert I,
himself a descendant of Pepin, king of Italy (+ 810), s/o Charlemagne.
Jean Bunot
Peter Stewart wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:44D7E2AA.4090503@mts.net...
Following up on the recent discussion regarding Carolingian descents, who
is the first Capetien monarch with an undisputed descent from Charlemagne.
I'm guessing it would be Louis VI?
I assume you mean a line that can be documented fully - if so, how are you
tracing this from Charlemagne to Louis VI?
Using the very efficient search method on Leo's Genealogics website I
see there is a line from Charlemagne to Louis VII:
Charlemagne
|
Louis the Pious
|
Lothar I
|
Lothar II the Saxon
|
Berta (by his bigamous marriage to Waldrada) married Thibaud of Arles
|
Boso of Tuscany
|
Willa married Berengar II, king of Italy
|
Adalbert
|
Otto William of Burgundy
|
Renaud
|
William I
|
Gisela married Humbert II of Savoy
|
Adelaide married Louis VI of France
|
Louis VII
I haven't spotted a line to Louis VI.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Capetien from Charlemagne
<magnusrufus@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1155406865.030283.272690@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Check the archive for this - there is no sound evidence that Beatrix
belonged to the comital family of Vermandois, while there are strong
indications that she did not.
Peter Stewart
news:1155406865.030283.272690@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
I think all the descendants of Hugues Capet have prooven carolingian
ancestry through his grand-mother Beatrix, d/o count Heribert I,
himself a descendant of Pepin, king of Italy (+ 810), s/o Charlemagne.
Check the archive for this - there is no sound evidence that Beatrix
belonged to the comital family of Vermandois, while there are strong
indications that she did not.
Peter Stewart