Friday, 4 August, 2006
Dear Leo, et al.,
In comparing my database to Genealogics, two questions arose
which I hope can be readily reconciled.
1. The pedigree below giving a line of descent from Ulrich,
markgraf of Carniola and his wife Sofia of Hungary gives
Ekkehard I von Scheyern as the husband of their daughter
Richardis. This conflicts with Genealogics, which gives
Otto (son of Ekkehard and Richardis in my account) as
the husband of Richardis.
Which version is borne out by ES? And, if the ES version
has solid dates provided, which version appears more likely
(if either) from a chronological view?
2. Perhaps more interestingly, Eilika von Lengenfeld (wife
of Otto, generation 1.1.1.1 below) is given by Alan
B. Wilson ["Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," SGM, Dec 20,
1997] as the daughter of Friedrich III von Lengenfeld
by Heilika of Swabia, alleged sister of Conrad III, King
of Germany (d. 1152) and aunt of the Emperor Frederick
Barbarossa. Heilika/Eilika of Swabia does not currently
appear on Genealogics.
If the mysterious Eilika of Swabia was correctly
identified (by Alan Wilson or a predecessor), that would give
another interesting Imperial descent for the many descendants
(Meran, Wittelsbach & c.) of this marriage.
Any clarification/correction will be appreciated.
Cheers,
John *
1 Ulrich von Weimar
----------------------------------------
Occ: Margrave of Carniola[1]
also Graf von Weimer-Orlamunde[1]
cf. Genealogics I00079976[2] [cites ES I:184[3]]
re: his wife:
she m. 1stly Ulrich of Carniola,
2ndly Magnus Billung of Saxony
cf. ES I Tafel 11[4]
Genealogics I00020368[2] [cites ES I:10[3]]
Spouse: Sofia of Hungary
Death: 18 Jun 1095[4]
Father: Bela of Hungary (-1063)
Mother: Richeza of Poland
Children: Richardis
1.1 Richardis of Carniola[1]
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Ekkehard I von Scheyern
Death: bef 1088[1]
Father: Otto I von Scheyern (-1072)
Mother: Hadagunda von Diessen
Children: Otto I (-ca1123)
1.1.1 Otto I von Scheyern
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1123[1]
Occ: Pfalzgraf von Bavaria 1110-1120
Graf von Wittelsbach 1115-1120[1]
Spouse: NN von Ratzenhofen[1]
Father: Eberhard von Ratzenhofen
Children: Otto II (-1156)
1.1.1.1 Otto II von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 4 Aug 1156[1]
Occ: Pfalzgraf von Bavaria -1156
Spouse: Eilika von Lengenfeld[5]
Death: 13 Sep 1170[1]
Father: Friedrich III von Lengenfeld (-1119)
Mother: Heilika of Swabia (->1110)
Children: Hedwig (-1174)
Otto IV (-1183)
1.1.1.1.1 Hedwig von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 16 Jul 1174[6]
Spouse: Berthold III of Andechs
Death: 14 Dec 1188[6]
Father: Berthold II of Andechs (-1151)
Mother: Sophie of Istria
Children: Berthold IV (als VI), Duke of Meran (-1204)
1.1.1.1.2 Otto IV von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 1 Jul 1183[1]
Occ: Duke of Bavaria 1180-1183
Otto IV von Wittelsbach (Otto V of Bavaria)
member, 2nd Crusade 1147; standard bearer to Emperor
Frederick Barbarossa; created Duke of Bavaria after
fall of Henry 'the Lion'.
imperial Ambassador to Constantinople
Spouse: Agnes of Loos
Death: 26 Mar 1191[1]
Father: Louis of Loos (-1171)
Mother: Agnes of Metz
Children: Richardis, m. Otto, Count of Gueldres and Zutphen
Heilika
Sophia
Agnes
Ludwig (1174-)
1. Paul Theroff, "House of Wittelsbach," Paul Theroff's Dynastic
Genealogy Files,
http://worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitt ... itlsbc.txt
corrections (Ekkehard I & c.) at
..pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/wit1.html
2. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas,
http://www.genealogics.com, cites Europäische Stammtafeln,
J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor,
[ES], and other sources
3. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln
zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Marburg, Germany: Verlag
von J. A. Stargardt, 1978-1995 [3rd series], First series
by Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series
by Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
4. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio
Klostermann, 1998 [4th series], Band I.1 [Tafel 3 - Die
Arnulfinger -751-771 Konige der Franken ], First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
5. Alan B. Wilson, "Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," Dec 20,
1997, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, citing Europaische
Stammtafeln as source re: Lengenfeld.
6. Marilyn Lewis, "Where is Meranie?," Nov 22, 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, prime source: Europaische
Stammtafeln Vol I, Tafel 36.
* John P. Ravilious
Eilika von Lengenfeld and 'related' questions
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Eilika von Lengenfeld and 'related' questions
<Therav3@aol.com> wrote in message news:3fb.74540480.320558aa@aol.com...
This has got into a tangle - the Otto who married Richardis is generally
held to have been Otto II, count of Scheyern & advocate of Freising (died 14
November ca 1110). He was son of Otto I (died 4 December, probably 1072) by
his (second?) wife Haziga of Diessen.
Ekkehard I of Scheyern, advocate of Freising, was an elder (? full- or
half-)brother of Otto II, perhaps by their father's first wife, a lady from
Saxony whose name is not recorded. Ekkehard I's eldest son was Otto III,
count of Scheyern (died 22 August in or son after 1140).
The Historia Welforum, written in the late 12th century, says that a
daughter of Sofia of Hungary by her second husband, Magnus Billung, duke of
Saxony, was abducted from a nunnery in Regensburg by Ekkehard of Scheyen and
became mother by him of Otto IV of Scheyern, count palatine of Bavaria - but
this may be wrong. Some historians follow it in part (none I think in full),
most hold that Richardis was daughter of Sofia by her first husband, Ulrich,
and some that she married Otto II of Scheyern not his brother Ekkehard. She
is recorded as in a contemporary document as "Richkart palatini mater", and
the count palatine Otto IV was almost certainly a son of Otto II rather than
Ekkehard I. The evidence, as with many important German families, is vague
enough to allow genealogists to play with it like a Rubic's cube where most
of the colours are missing.
Otto IV's wife was named as "Heilika palatina" and she was heiress of
Lengenfeld, daughter of Friedrich who is usually called "von Pettendorf" but
this is not certain. If correct, his wife was named Heilwig or Heilbirg and
does not appear to be identical with Friedrich I of Swabia's daughter
Heilika who was more probably wife of his namesake uncle. Again, the pieces
of evidence can be, and have been, sorted and assembled in various ways. The
countess palatine Heilika had a sister named Heilwig, wife of Gebhard I of
Leuchternberg.
Peter Stewart
Friday, 4 August, 2006
Dear Leo, et al.,
In comparing my database to Genealogics, two questions arose
which I hope can be readily reconciled.
1. The pedigree below giving a line of descent from Ulrich,
markgraf of Carniola and his wife Sofia of Hungary gives
Ekkehard I von Scheyern as the husband of their daughter
Richardis. This conflicts with Genealogics, which gives
Otto (son of Ekkehard and Richardis in my account) as
the husband of Richardis.
Which version is borne out by ES? And, if the ES version
has solid dates provided, which version appears more likely
(if either) from a chronological view?
This has got into a tangle - the Otto who married Richardis is generally
held to have been Otto II, count of Scheyern & advocate of Freising (died 14
November ca 1110). He was son of Otto I (died 4 December, probably 1072) by
his (second?) wife Haziga of Diessen.
Ekkehard I of Scheyern, advocate of Freising, was an elder (? full- or
half-)brother of Otto II, perhaps by their father's first wife, a lady from
Saxony whose name is not recorded. Ekkehard I's eldest son was Otto III,
count of Scheyern (died 22 August in or son after 1140).
The Historia Welforum, written in the late 12th century, says that a
daughter of Sofia of Hungary by her second husband, Magnus Billung, duke of
Saxony, was abducted from a nunnery in Regensburg by Ekkehard of Scheyen and
became mother by him of Otto IV of Scheyern, count palatine of Bavaria - but
this may be wrong. Some historians follow it in part (none I think in full),
most hold that Richardis was daughter of Sofia by her first husband, Ulrich,
and some that she married Otto II of Scheyern not his brother Ekkehard. She
is recorded as in a contemporary document as "Richkart palatini mater", and
the count palatine Otto IV was almost certainly a son of Otto II rather than
Ekkehard I. The evidence, as with many important German families, is vague
enough to allow genealogists to play with it like a Rubic's cube where most
of the colours are missing.
2. Perhaps more interestingly, Eilika von Lengenfeld (wife
of Otto, generation 1.1.1.1 below) is given by Alan
B. Wilson ["Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," SGM, Dec 20,
1997] as the daughter of Friedrich III von Lengenfeld
by Heilika of Swabia, alleged sister of Conrad III, King
of Germany (d. 1152) and aunt of the Emperor Frederick
Barbarossa. Heilika/Eilika of Swabia does not currently
appear on Genealogics.
If the mysterious Eilika of Swabia was correctly
identified (by Alan Wilson or a predecessor), that would give
another interesting Imperial descent for the many descendants
(Meran, Wittelsbach & c.) of this marriage.
Otto IV's wife was named as "Heilika palatina" and she was heiress of
Lengenfeld, daughter of Friedrich who is usually called "von Pettendorf" but
this is not certain. If correct, his wife was named Heilwig or Heilbirg and
does not appear to be identical with Friedrich I of Swabia's daughter
Heilika who was more probably wife of his namesake uncle. Again, the pieces
of evidence can be, and have been, sorted and assembled in various ways. The
countess palatine Heilika had a sister named Heilwig, wife of Gebhard I of
Leuchternberg.
Peter Stewart
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Eilika von Lengenfeld and 'related' questions
Dear John,
Many thanks for this question. It appears that I used ES Freytag von
Loringhoven and did not update it with ES Schwennicke. I have already
spotted some discrepancies between them. I am going to amend this now.
Much appreciated, the more problems are removed the better.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <Therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu>; <WJhonson@aol.com>; <tim@powys.org>;
<Jwc1870@aol.com>; <nugget10@hotkey.net.au>; ""CC:ro??????????"
<"CC:ro??????????
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:12 PM
Subject: Eilika von Lengenfeld and 'related' questions
Friday, 4 August, 2006
Dear Leo, et al.,
In comparing my database to Genealogics, two questions arose
which I hope can be readily reconciled.
1. The pedigree below giving a line of descent from Ulrich,
markgraf of Carniola and his wife Sofia of Hungary gives
Ekkehard I von Scheyern as the husband of their daughter
Richardis. This conflicts with Genealogics, which gives
Otto (son of Ekkehard and Richardis in my account) as
the husband of Richardis.
Which version is borne out by ES? And, if the ES version
has solid dates provided, which version appears more likely
(if either) from a chronological view?
2. Perhaps more interestingly, Eilika von Lengenfeld (wife
of Otto, generation 1.1.1.1 below) is given by Alan
B. Wilson ["Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," SGM, Dec 20,
1997] as the daughter of Friedrich III von Lengenfeld
by Heilika of Swabia, alleged sister of Conrad III, King
of Germany (d. 1152) and aunt of the Emperor Frederick
Barbarossa. Heilika/Eilika of Swabia does not currently
appear on Genealogics.
If the mysterious Eilika of Swabia was correctly
identified (by Alan Wilson or a predecessor), that would give
another interesting Imperial descent for the many descendants
(Meran, Wittelsbach & c.) of this marriage.
Any clarification/correction will be appreciated.
Cheers,
John *
1 Ulrich von Weimar
----------------------------------------
Occ: Margrave of Carniola[1]
also Graf von Weimer-Orlamunde[1]
cf. Genealogics I00079976[2] [cites ES I:184[3]]
re: his wife:
she m. 1stly Ulrich of Carniola,
2ndly Magnus Billung of Saxony
cf. ES I Tafel 11[4]
Genealogics I00020368[2] [cites ES I:10[3]]
Spouse: Sofia of Hungary
Death: 18 Jun 1095[4]
Father: Bela of Hungary (-1063)
Mother: Richeza of Poland
Children: Richardis
1.1 Richardis of Carniola[1]
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Ekkehard I von Scheyern
Death: bef 1088[1]
Father: Otto I von Scheyern (-1072)
Mother: Hadagunda von Diessen
Children: Otto I (-ca1123)
1.1.1 Otto I von Scheyern
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1123[1]
Occ: Pfalzgraf von Bavaria 1110-1120
Graf von Wittelsbach 1115-1120[1]
Spouse: NN von Ratzenhofen[1]
Father: Eberhard von Ratzenhofen
Children: Otto II (-1156)
1.1.1.1 Otto II von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 4 Aug 1156[1]
Occ: Pfalzgraf von Bavaria -1156
Spouse: Eilika von Lengenfeld[5]
Death: 13 Sep 1170[1]
Father: Friedrich III von Lengenfeld (-1119)
Mother: Heilika of Swabia (->1110)
Children: Hedwig (-1174)
Otto IV (-1183)
1.1.1.1.1 Hedwig von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 16 Jul 1174[6]
Spouse: Berthold III of Andechs
Death: 14 Dec 1188[6]
Father: Berthold II of Andechs (-1151)
Mother: Sophie of Istria
Children: Berthold IV (als VI), Duke of Meran (-1204)
1.1.1.1.2 Otto IV von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 1 Jul 1183[1]
Occ: Duke of Bavaria 1180-1183
Otto IV von Wittelsbach (Otto V of Bavaria)
member, 2nd Crusade 1147; standard bearer to Emperor
Frederick Barbarossa; created Duke of Bavaria after
fall of Henry 'the Lion'.
imperial Ambassador to Constantinople
Spouse: Agnes of Loos
Death: 26 Mar 1191[1]
Father: Louis of Loos (-1171)
Mother: Agnes of Metz
Children: Richardis, m. Otto, Count of Gueldres and Zutphen
Heilika
Sophia
Agnes
Ludwig (1174-)
1. Paul Theroff, "House of Wittelsbach," Paul Theroff's Dynastic
Genealogy Files,
http://worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitt ... itlsbc.txt
corrections (Ekkehard I & c.) at
..pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/wit1.html
2. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas,
http://www.genealogics.com, cites Europäische Stammtafeln,
J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor,
[ES], and other sources
3. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln
zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Marburg, Germany: Verlag
von J. A. Stargardt, 1978-1995 [3rd series], First series
by Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series
by Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
4. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio
Klostermann, 1998 [4th series], Band I.1 [Tafel 3 - Die
Arnulfinger -751-771 Konige der Franken ], First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
5. Alan B. Wilson, "Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," Dec 20,
1997, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, citing Europaische
Stammtafeln as source re: Lengenfeld.
6. Marilyn Lewis, "Where is Meranie?," Nov 22, 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, prime source: Europaische
Stammtafeln Vol I, Tafel 36.
* John P. Ravilious
Many thanks for this question. It appears that I used ES Freytag von
Loringhoven and did not update it with ES Schwennicke. I have already
spotted some discrepancies between them. I am going to amend this now.
Much appreciated, the more problems are removed the better.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <Therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu>; <WJhonson@aol.com>; <tim@powys.org>;
<Jwc1870@aol.com>; <nugget10@hotkey.net.au>; ""CC:ro??????????"
<"CC:ro??????????
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:12 PM
Subject: Eilika von Lengenfeld and 'related' questions
Friday, 4 August, 2006
Dear Leo, et al.,
In comparing my database to Genealogics, two questions arose
which I hope can be readily reconciled.
1. The pedigree below giving a line of descent from Ulrich,
markgraf of Carniola and his wife Sofia of Hungary gives
Ekkehard I von Scheyern as the husband of their daughter
Richardis. This conflicts with Genealogics, which gives
Otto (son of Ekkehard and Richardis in my account) as
the husband of Richardis.
Which version is borne out by ES? And, if the ES version
has solid dates provided, which version appears more likely
(if either) from a chronological view?
2. Perhaps more interestingly, Eilika von Lengenfeld (wife
of Otto, generation 1.1.1.1 below) is given by Alan
B. Wilson ["Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," SGM, Dec 20,
1997] as the daughter of Friedrich III von Lengenfeld
by Heilika of Swabia, alleged sister of Conrad III, King
of Germany (d. 1152) and aunt of the Emperor Frederick
Barbarossa. Heilika/Eilika of Swabia does not currently
appear on Genealogics.
If the mysterious Eilika of Swabia was correctly
identified (by Alan Wilson or a predecessor), that would give
another interesting Imperial descent for the many descendants
(Meran, Wittelsbach & c.) of this marriage.
Any clarification/correction will be appreciated.
Cheers,
John *
1 Ulrich von Weimar
----------------------------------------
Occ: Margrave of Carniola[1]
also Graf von Weimer-Orlamunde[1]
cf. Genealogics I00079976[2] [cites ES I:184[3]]
re: his wife:
she m. 1stly Ulrich of Carniola,
2ndly Magnus Billung of Saxony
cf. ES I Tafel 11[4]
Genealogics I00020368[2] [cites ES I:10[3]]
Spouse: Sofia of Hungary
Death: 18 Jun 1095[4]
Father: Bela of Hungary (-1063)
Mother: Richeza of Poland
Children: Richardis
1.1 Richardis of Carniola[1]
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Ekkehard I von Scheyern
Death: bef 1088[1]
Father: Otto I von Scheyern (-1072)
Mother: Hadagunda von Diessen
Children: Otto I (-ca1123)
1.1.1 Otto I von Scheyern
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1123[1]
Occ: Pfalzgraf von Bavaria 1110-1120
Graf von Wittelsbach 1115-1120[1]
Spouse: NN von Ratzenhofen[1]
Father: Eberhard von Ratzenhofen
Children: Otto II (-1156)
1.1.1.1 Otto II von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 4 Aug 1156[1]
Occ: Pfalzgraf von Bavaria -1156
Spouse: Eilika von Lengenfeld[5]
Death: 13 Sep 1170[1]
Father: Friedrich III von Lengenfeld (-1119)
Mother: Heilika of Swabia (->1110)
Children: Hedwig (-1174)
Otto IV (-1183)
1.1.1.1.1 Hedwig von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 16 Jul 1174[6]
Spouse: Berthold III of Andechs
Death: 14 Dec 1188[6]
Father: Berthold II of Andechs (-1151)
Mother: Sophie of Istria
Children: Berthold IV (als VI), Duke of Meran (-1204)
1.1.1.1.2 Otto IV von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 1 Jul 1183[1]
Occ: Duke of Bavaria 1180-1183
Otto IV von Wittelsbach (Otto V of Bavaria)
member, 2nd Crusade 1147; standard bearer to Emperor
Frederick Barbarossa; created Duke of Bavaria after
fall of Henry 'the Lion'.
imperial Ambassador to Constantinople
Spouse: Agnes of Loos
Death: 26 Mar 1191[1]
Father: Louis of Loos (-1171)
Mother: Agnes of Metz
Children: Richardis, m. Otto, Count of Gueldres and Zutphen
Heilika
Sophia
Agnes
Ludwig (1174-)
1. Paul Theroff, "House of Wittelsbach," Paul Theroff's Dynastic
Genealogy Files,
http://worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitt ... itlsbc.txt
corrections (Ekkehard I & c.) at
..pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/wit1.html
2. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas,
http://www.genealogics.com, cites Europäische Stammtafeln,
J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor,
[ES], and other sources
3. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln
zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Marburg, Germany: Verlag
von J. A. Stargardt, 1978-1995 [3rd series], First series
by Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series
by Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
4. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio
Klostermann, 1998 [4th series], Band I.1 [Tafel 3 - Die
Arnulfinger -751-771 Konige der Franken ], First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
5. Alan B. Wilson, "Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," Dec 20,
1997, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, citing Europaische
Stammtafeln as source re: Lengenfeld.
6. Marilyn Lewis, "Where is Meranie?," Nov 22, 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, prime source: Europaische
Stammtafeln Vol I, Tafel 36.
* John P. Ravilious
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Eilika von Lengenfeld and 'related' questions
Dear John,
Spanner in the works? ES Schwennicke Volume 1.1 Tafel 90.
Here is shown Ekkehard Count von Scheyern, died ca.1087/1088, married to
Richgardis von Krain, but above his name is in big letters ANNOTATIO,
and at the bottom of the page is this annotation, Richgard von Krain, mother
of Otto I, can also have been married to Otto II. Otto II, Count von
Scheyern is an older half-brother of Ekkehard.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <Therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu>; <WJhonson@aol.com>; <tim@powys.org>;
<Jwc1870@aol.com>; <nugget10@hotkey.net.au>; ""CC:ro??????????"
<"CC:ro??????????
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:12 PM
Subject: Eilika von Lengenfeld and 'related' questions
Friday, 4 August, 2006
Dear Leo, et al.,
In comparing my database to Genealogics, two questions arose
which I hope can be readily reconciled.
1. The pedigree below giving a line of descent from Ulrich,
markgraf of Carniola and his wife Sofia of Hungary gives
Ekkehard I von Scheyern as the husband of their daughter
Richardis. This conflicts with Genealogics, which gives
Otto (son of Ekkehard and Richardis in my account) as
the husband of Richardis.
Which version is borne out by ES? And, if the ES version
has solid dates provided, which version appears more likely
(if either) from a chronological view?
2. Perhaps more interestingly, Eilika von Lengenfeld (wife
of Otto, generation 1.1.1.1 below) is given by Alan
B. Wilson ["Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," SGM, Dec 20,
1997] as the daughter of Friedrich III von Lengenfeld
by Heilika of Swabia, alleged sister of Conrad III, King
of Germany (d. 1152) and aunt of the Emperor Frederick
Barbarossa. Heilika/Eilika of Swabia does not currently
appear on Genealogics.
If the mysterious Eilika of Swabia was correctly
identified (by Alan Wilson or a predecessor), that would give
another interesting Imperial descent for the many descendants
(Meran, Wittelsbach & c.) of this marriage.
Any clarification/correction will be appreciated.
Cheers,
John *
1 Ulrich von Weimar
----------------------------------------
Occ: Margrave of Carniola[1]
also Graf von Weimer-Orlamunde[1]
cf. Genealogics I00079976[2] [cites ES I:184[3]]
re: his wife:
she m. 1stly Ulrich of Carniola,
2ndly Magnus Billung of Saxony
cf. ES I Tafel 11[4]
Genealogics I00020368[2] [cites ES I:10[3]]
Spouse: Sofia of Hungary
Death: 18 Jun 1095[4]
Father: Bela of Hungary (-1063)
Mother: Richeza of Poland
Children: Richardis
1.1 Richardis of Carniola[1]
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Ekkehard I von Scheyern
Death: bef 1088[1]
Father: Otto I von Scheyern (-1072)
Mother: Hadagunda von Diessen
Children: Otto I (-ca1123)
1.1.1 Otto I von Scheyern
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1123[1]
Occ: Pfalzgraf von Bavaria 1110-1120
Graf von Wittelsbach 1115-1120[1]
Spouse: NN von Ratzenhofen[1]
Father: Eberhard von Ratzenhofen
Children: Otto II (-1156)
1.1.1.1 Otto II von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 4 Aug 1156[1]
Occ: Pfalzgraf von Bavaria -1156
Spouse: Eilika von Lengenfeld[5]
Death: 13 Sep 1170[1]
Father: Friedrich III von Lengenfeld (-1119)
Mother: Heilika of Swabia (->1110)
Children: Hedwig (-1174)
Otto IV (-1183)
1.1.1.1.1 Hedwig von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 16 Jul 1174[6]
Spouse: Berthold III of Andechs
Death: 14 Dec 1188[6]
Father: Berthold II of Andechs (-1151)
Mother: Sophie of Istria
Children: Berthold IV (als VI), Duke of Meran (-1204)
1.1.1.1.2 Otto IV von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 1 Jul 1183[1]
Occ: Duke of Bavaria 1180-1183
Otto IV von Wittelsbach (Otto V of Bavaria)
member, 2nd Crusade 1147; standard bearer to Emperor
Frederick Barbarossa; created Duke of Bavaria after
fall of Henry 'the Lion'.
imperial Ambassador to Constantinople
Spouse: Agnes of Loos
Death: 26 Mar 1191[1]
Father: Louis of Loos (-1171)
Mother: Agnes of Metz
Children: Richardis, m. Otto, Count of Gueldres and Zutphen
Heilika
Sophia
Agnes
Ludwig (1174-)
1. Paul Theroff, "House of Wittelsbach," Paul Theroff's Dynastic
Genealogy Files,
http://worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitt ... itlsbc.txt
corrections (Ekkehard I & c.) at
..pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/wit1.html
2. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas,
http://www.genealogics.com, cites Europäische Stammtafeln,
J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor,
[ES], and other sources
3. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln
zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Marburg, Germany: Verlag
von J. A. Stargardt, 1978-1995 [3rd series], First series
by Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series
by Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
4. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio
Klostermann, 1998 [4th series], Band I.1 [Tafel 3 - Die
Arnulfinger -751-771 Konige der Franken ], First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
5. Alan B. Wilson, "Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," Dec 20,
1997, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, citing Europaische
Stammtafeln as source re: Lengenfeld.
6. Marilyn Lewis, "Where is Meranie?," Nov 22, 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, prime source: Europaische
Stammtafeln Vol I, Tafel 36.
* John P. Ravilious
Spanner in the works? ES Schwennicke Volume 1.1 Tafel 90.
Here is shown Ekkehard Count von Scheyern, died ca.1087/1088, married to
Richgardis von Krain, but above his name is in big letters ANNOTATIO,
and at the bottom of the page is this annotation, Richgard von Krain, mother
of Otto I, can also have been married to Otto II. Otto II, Count von
Scheyern is an older half-brother of Ekkehard.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <Therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu>; <WJhonson@aol.com>; <tim@powys.org>;
<Jwc1870@aol.com>; <nugget10@hotkey.net.au>; ""CC:ro??????????"
<"CC:ro??????????
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:12 PM
Subject: Eilika von Lengenfeld and 'related' questions
Friday, 4 August, 2006
Dear Leo, et al.,
In comparing my database to Genealogics, two questions arose
which I hope can be readily reconciled.
1. The pedigree below giving a line of descent from Ulrich,
markgraf of Carniola and his wife Sofia of Hungary gives
Ekkehard I von Scheyern as the husband of their daughter
Richardis. This conflicts with Genealogics, which gives
Otto (son of Ekkehard and Richardis in my account) as
the husband of Richardis.
Which version is borne out by ES? And, if the ES version
has solid dates provided, which version appears more likely
(if either) from a chronological view?
2. Perhaps more interestingly, Eilika von Lengenfeld (wife
of Otto, generation 1.1.1.1 below) is given by Alan
B. Wilson ["Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," SGM, Dec 20,
1997] as the daughter of Friedrich III von Lengenfeld
by Heilika of Swabia, alleged sister of Conrad III, King
of Germany (d. 1152) and aunt of the Emperor Frederick
Barbarossa. Heilika/Eilika of Swabia does not currently
appear on Genealogics.
If the mysterious Eilika of Swabia was correctly
identified (by Alan Wilson or a predecessor), that would give
another interesting Imperial descent for the many descendants
(Meran, Wittelsbach & c.) of this marriage.
Any clarification/correction will be appreciated.
Cheers,
John *
1 Ulrich von Weimar
----------------------------------------
Occ: Margrave of Carniola[1]
also Graf von Weimer-Orlamunde[1]
cf. Genealogics I00079976[2] [cites ES I:184[3]]
re: his wife:
she m. 1stly Ulrich of Carniola,
2ndly Magnus Billung of Saxony
cf. ES I Tafel 11[4]
Genealogics I00020368[2] [cites ES I:10[3]]
Spouse: Sofia of Hungary
Death: 18 Jun 1095[4]
Father: Bela of Hungary (-1063)
Mother: Richeza of Poland
Children: Richardis
1.1 Richardis of Carniola[1]
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Ekkehard I von Scheyern
Death: bef 1088[1]
Father: Otto I von Scheyern (-1072)
Mother: Hadagunda von Diessen
Children: Otto I (-ca1123)
1.1.1 Otto I von Scheyern
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1123[1]
Occ: Pfalzgraf von Bavaria 1110-1120
Graf von Wittelsbach 1115-1120[1]
Spouse: NN von Ratzenhofen[1]
Father: Eberhard von Ratzenhofen
Children: Otto II (-1156)
1.1.1.1 Otto II von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 4 Aug 1156[1]
Occ: Pfalzgraf von Bavaria -1156
Spouse: Eilika von Lengenfeld[5]
Death: 13 Sep 1170[1]
Father: Friedrich III von Lengenfeld (-1119)
Mother: Heilika of Swabia (->1110)
Children: Hedwig (-1174)
Otto IV (-1183)
1.1.1.1.1 Hedwig von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 16 Jul 1174[6]
Spouse: Berthold III of Andechs
Death: 14 Dec 1188[6]
Father: Berthold II of Andechs (-1151)
Mother: Sophie of Istria
Children: Berthold IV (als VI), Duke of Meran (-1204)
1.1.1.1.2 Otto IV von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 1 Jul 1183[1]
Occ: Duke of Bavaria 1180-1183
Otto IV von Wittelsbach (Otto V of Bavaria)
member, 2nd Crusade 1147; standard bearer to Emperor
Frederick Barbarossa; created Duke of Bavaria after
fall of Henry 'the Lion'.
imperial Ambassador to Constantinople
Spouse: Agnes of Loos
Death: 26 Mar 1191[1]
Father: Louis of Loos (-1171)
Mother: Agnes of Metz
Children: Richardis, m. Otto, Count of Gueldres and Zutphen
Heilika
Sophia
Agnes
Ludwig (1174-)
1. Paul Theroff, "House of Wittelsbach," Paul Theroff's Dynastic
Genealogy Files,
http://worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitt ... itlsbc.txt
corrections (Ekkehard I & c.) at
..pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/wit1.html
2. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas,
http://www.genealogics.com, cites Europäische Stammtafeln,
J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor,
[ES], and other sources
3. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln
zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Marburg, Germany: Verlag
von J. A. Stargardt, 1978-1995 [3rd series], First series
by Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series
by Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
4. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio
Klostermann, 1998 [4th series], Band I.1 [Tafel 3 - Die
Arnulfinger -751-771 Konige der Franken ], First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
5. Alan B. Wilson, "Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," Dec 20,
1997, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, citing Europaische
Stammtafeln as source re: Lengenfeld.
6. Marilyn Lewis, "Where is Meranie?," Nov 22, 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, prime source: Europaische
Stammtafeln Vol I, Tafel 36.
* John P. Ravilious
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Eilika von Lengenfeld and 'related' questions
Dear John,
Another point see below
----- Original Message -----
From: <Therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu>; <WJhonson@aol.com>; <tim@powys.org>;
<Jwc1870@aol.com>; <nugget10@hotkey.net.au>; ""CC:ro??????????"
<"CC:ro??????????
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:12 PM
Subject: Eilika von Lengenfeld and 'related' questions
Friday, 4 August, 2006
Dear Leo, et al.,
In comparing my database to Genealogics, two questions arose
which I hope can be readily reconciled.
1. The pedigree below giving a line of descent from Ulrich,
markgraf of Carniola and his wife Sofia of Hungary gives
Ekkehard I von Scheyern as the husband of their daughter
Richardis. This conflicts with Genealogics, which gives
Otto (son of Ekkehard and Richardis in my account) as
the husband of Richardis.
Which version is borne out by ES? And, if the ES version
has solid dates provided, which version appears more likely
(if either) from a chronological view?
2. Perhaps more interestingly, Eilika von Lengenfeld (wife
of Otto, generation 1.1.1.1 below) is given by Alan
B. Wilson ["Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," SGM, Dec 20,
1997] as the daughter of Friedrich III von Lengenfeld
by Heilika of Swabia, alleged sister of Conrad III, King
of Germany (d. 1152) and aunt of the Emperor Frederick
Barbarossa. Heilika/Eilika of Swabia does not currently
appear on Genealogics.
Dear John,
Heilika/Elika von Staufen is there already, married to Friedrich III von
Pettendorf, Herr von Hopfenhohe-Pettendorf-Lengenfeld
Leo
If the mysterious Eilika of Swabia was correctly
identified (by Alan Wilson or a predecessor), that would give
another interesting Imperial descent for the many descendants
(Meran, Wittelsbach & c.) of this marriage.
Any clarification/correction will be appreciated.
Cheers,
John *
1 Ulrich von Weimar
----------------------------------------
Occ: Margrave of Carniola[1]
also Graf von Weimer-Orlamunde[1]
cf. Genealogics I00079976[2] [cites ES I:184[3]]
re: his wife:
she m. 1stly Ulrich of Carniola,
2ndly Magnus Billung of Saxony
cf. ES I Tafel 11[4]
Genealogics I00020368[2] [cites ES I:10[3]]
Spouse: Sofia of Hungary
Death: 18 Jun 1095[4]
Father: Bela of Hungary (-1063)
Mother: Richeza of Poland
Children: Richardis
1.1 Richardis of Carniola[1]
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Ekkehard I von Scheyern
Death: bef 1088[1]
Father: Otto I von Scheyern (-1072)
Mother: Hadagunda von Diessen
Children: Otto I (-ca1123)
1.1.1 Otto I von Scheyern
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1123[1]
Occ: Pfalzgraf von Bavaria 1110-1120
Graf von Wittelsbach 1115-1120[1]
Spouse: NN von Ratzenhofen[1]
Father: Eberhard von Ratzenhofen
Children: Otto II (-1156)
1.1.1.1 Otto II von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 4 Aug 1156[1]
Occ: Pfalzgraf von Bavaria -1156
Spouse: Eilika von Lengenfeld[5]
Death: 13 Sep 1170[1]
Father: Friedrich III von Lengenfeld (-1119)
Mother: Heilika of Swabia (->1110)
Children: Hedwig (-1174)
Otto IV (-1183)
1.1.1.1.1 Hedwig von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 16 Jul 1174[6]
Spouse: Berthold III of Andechs
Death: 14 Dec 1188[6]
Father: Berthold II of Andechs (-1151)
Mother: Sophie of Istria
Children: Berthold IV (als VI), Duke of Meran (-1204)
1.1.1.1.2 Otto IV von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 1 Jul 1183[1]
Occ: Duke of Bavaria 1180-1183
Otto IV von Wittelsbach (Otto V of Bavaria)
member, 2nd Crusade 1147; standard bearer to Emperor
Frederick Barbarossa; created Duke of Bavaria after
fall of Henry 'the Lion'.
imperial Ambassador to Constantinople
Spouse: Agnes of Loos
Death: 26 Mar 1191[1]
Father: Louis of Loos (-1171)
Mother: Agnes of Metz
Children: Richardis, m. Otto, Count of Gueldres and Zutphen
Heilika
Sophia
Agnes
Ludwig (1174-)
1. Paul Theroff, "House of Wittelsbach," Paul Theroff's Dynastic
Genealogy Files,
http://worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitt ... itlsbc.txt
corrections (Ekkehard I & c.) at
..pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/wit1.html
2. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas,
http://www.genealogics.com, cites Europäische Stammtafeln,
J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor,
[ES], and other sources
3. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln
zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Marburg, Germany: Verlag
von J. A. Stargardt, 1978-1995 [3rd series], First series
by Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series
by Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
4. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio
Klostermann, 1998 [4th series], Band I.1 [Tafel 3 - Die
Arnulfinger -751-771 Konige der Franken ], First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
5. Alan B. Wilson, "Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," Dec 20,
1997, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, citing Europaische
Stammtafeln as source re: Lengenfeld.
6. Marilyn Lewis, "Where is Meranie?," Nov 22, 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, prime source: Europaische
Stammtafeln Vol I, Tafel 36.
* John P. Ravilious
Another point see below
----- Original Message -----
From: <Therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu>; <WJhonson@aol.com>; <tim@powys.org>;
<Jwc1870@aol.com>; <nugget10@hotkey.net.au>; ""CC:ro??????????"
<"CC:ro??????????
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:12 PM
Subject: Eilika von Lengenfeld and 'related' questions
Friday, 4 August, 2006
Dear Leo, et al.,
In comparing my database to Genealogics, two questions arose
which I hope can be readily reconciled.
1. The pedigree below giving a line of descent from Ulrich,
markgraf of Carniola and his wife Sofia of Hungary gives
Ekkehard I von Scheyern as the husband of their daughter
Richardis. This conflicts with Genealogics, which gives
Otto (son of Ekkehard and Richardis in my account) as
the husband of Richardis.
Which version is borne out by ES? And, if the ES version
has solid dates provided, which version appears more likely
(if either) from a chronological view?
2. Perhaps more interestingly, Eilika von Lengenfeld (wife
of Otto, generation 1.1.1.1 below) is given by Alan
B. Wilson ["Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," SGM, Dec 20,
1997] as the daughter of Friedrich III von Lengenfeld
by Heilika of Swabia, alleged sister of Conrad III, King
of Germany (d. 1152) and aunt of the Emperor Frederick
Barbarossa. Heilika/Eilika of Swabia does not currently
appear on Genealogics.
Dear John,
Heilika/Elika von Staufen is there already, married to Friedrich III von
Pettendorf, Herr von Hopfenhohe-Pettendorf-Lengenfeld
Leo
If the mysterious Eilika of Swabia was correctly
identified (by Alan Wilson or a predecessor), that would give
another interesting Imperial descent for the many descendants
(Meran, Wittelsbach & c.) of this marriage.
Any clarification/correction will be appreciated.
Cheers,
John *
1 Ulrich von Weimar
----------------------------------------
Occ: Margrave of Carniola[1]
also Graf von Weimer-Orlamunde[1]
cf. Genealogics I00079976[2] [cites ES I:184[3]]
re: his wife:
she m. 1stly Ulrich of Carniola,
2ndly Magnus Billung of Saxony
cf. ES I Tafel 11[4]
Genealogics I00020368[2] [cites ES I:10[3]]
Spouse: Sofia of Hungary
Death: 18 Jun 1095[4]
Father: Bela of Hungary (-1063)
Mother: Richeza of Poland
Children: Richardis
1.1 Richardis of Carniola[1]
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Ekkehard I von Scheyern
Death: bef 1088[1]
Father: Otto I von Scheyern (-1072)
Mother: Hadagunda von Diessen
Children: Otto I (-ca1123)
1.1.1 Otto I von Scheyern
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1123[1]
Occ: Pfalzgraf von Bavaria 1110-1120
Graf von Wittelsbach 1115-1120[1]
Spouse: NN von Ratzenhofen[1]
Father: Eberhard von Ratzenhofen
Children: Otto II (-1156)
1.1.1.1 Otto II von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 4 Aug 1156[1]
Occ: Pfalzgraf von Bavaria -1156
Spouse: Eilika von Lengenfeld[5]
Death: 13 Sep 1170[1]
Father: Friedrich III von Lengenfeld (-1119)
Mother: Heilika of Swabia (->1110)
Children: Hedwig (-1174)
Otto IV (-1183)
1.1.1.1.1 Hedwig von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 16 Jul 1174[6]
Spouse: Berthold III of Andechs
Death: 14 Dec 1188[6]
Father: Berthold II of Andechs (-1151)
Mother: Sophie of Istria
Children: Berthold IV (als VI), Duke of Meran (-1204)
1.1.1.1.2 Otto IV von Wittelsbach
----------------------------------------
Death: 1 Jul 1183[1]
Occ: Duke of Bavaria 1180-1183
Otto IV von Wittelsbach (Otto V of Bavaria)
member, 2nd Crusade 1147; standard bearer to Emperor
Frederick Barbarossa; created Duke of Bavaria after
fall of Henry 'the Lion'.
imperial Ambassador to Constantinople
Spouse: Agnes of Loos
Death: 26 Mar 1191[1]
Father: Louis of Loos (-1171)
Mother: Agnes of Metz
Children: Richardis, m. Otto, Count of Gueldres and Zutphen
Heilika
Sophia
Agnes
Ludwig (1174-)
1. Paul Theroff, "House of Wittelsbach," Paul Theroff's Dynastic
Genealogy Files,
http://worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitt ... itlsbc.txt
corrections (Ekkehard I & c.) at
..pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/wit1.html
2. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas,
http://www.genealogics.com, cites Europäische Stammtafeln,
J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor,
[ES], and other sources
3. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln
zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Marburg, Germany: Verlag
von J. A. Stargardt, 1978-1995 [3rd series], First series
by Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series
by Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
4. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio
Klostermann, 1998 [4th series], Band I.1 [Tafel 3 - Die
Arnulfinger -751-771 Konige der Franken ], First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
5. Alan B. Wilson, "Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," Dec 20,
1997, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, citing Europaische
Stammtafeln as source re: Lengenfeld.
6. Marilyn Lewis, "Where is Meranie?," Nov 22, 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, prime source: Europaische
Stammtafeln Vol I, Tafel 36.
* John P. Ravilious
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Eilika von Lengenfeld and 'related' questions
Dear Peter,
Many thanks for your reply, and the details provided. A tangle,
indeed.
I will be making necessary corrections to my own records.
Meanwhile, hope things are not too wintry down your way.
Cheers,
John
Peter Stewart wrote:
Many thanks for your reply, and the details provided. A tangle,
indeed.
I will be making necessary corrections to my own records.
Meanwhile, hope things are not too wintry down your way.
Cheers,
John
Peter Stewart wrote:
Therav3@aol.com> wrote in message news:3fb.74540480.320558aa@aol.com...
Friday, 4 August, 2006
Dear Leo, et al.,
In comparing my database to Genealogics, two questions arose
which I hope can be readily reconciled.
1. The pedigree below giving a line of descent from Ulrich,
markgraf of Carniola and his wife Sofia of Hungary gives
Ekkehard I von Scheyern as the husband of their daughter
Richardis. This conflicts with Genealogics, which gives
Otto (son of Ekkehard and Richardis in my account) as
the husband of Richardis.
Which version is borne out by ES? And, if the ES version
has solid dates provided, which version appears more likely
(if either) from a chronological view?
This has got into a tangle - the Otto who married Richardis is generally
held to have been Otto II, count of Scheyern & advocate of Freising (died 14
November ca 1110). He was son of Otto I (died 4 December, probably 1072) by
his (second?) wife Haziga of Diessen.
Ekkehard I of Scheyern, advocate of Freising, was an elder (? full- or
half-)brother of Otto II, perhaps by their father's first wife, a lady from
Saxony whose name is not recorded. Ekkehard I's eldest son was Otto III,
count of Scheyern (died 22 August in or son after 1140).
The Historia Welforum, written in the late 12th century, says that a
daughter of Sofia of Hungary by her second husband, Magnus Billung, duke of
Saxony, was abducted from a nunnery in Regensburg by Ekkehard of Scheyen and
became mother by him of Otto IV of Scheyern, count palatine of Bavaria - but
this may be wrong. Some historians follow it in part (none I think in full),
most hold that Richardis was daughter of Sofia by her first husband, Ulrich,
and some that she married Otto II of Scheyern not his brother Ekkehard. She
is recorded as in a contemporary document as "Richkart palatini mater", and
the count palatine Otto IV was almost certainly a son of Otto II rather than
Ekkehard I. The evidence, as with many important German families, is vague
enough to allow genealogists to play with it like a Rubic's cube where most
of the colours are missing.
2. Perhaps more interestingly, Eilika von Lengenfeld (wife
of Otto, generation 1.1.1.1 below) is given by Alan
B. Wilson ["Andechs,Meran,Rochlitz,Swabia," SGM, Dec 20,
1997] as the daughter of Friedrich III von Lengenfeld
by Heilika of Swabia, alleged sister of Conrad III, King
of Germany (d. 1152) and aunt of the Emperor Frederick
Barbarossa. Heilika/Eilika of Swabia does not currently
appear on Genealogics.
If the mysterious Eilika of Swabia was correctly
identified (by Alan Wilson or a predecessor), that would give
another interesting Imperial descent for the many descendants
(Meran, Wittelsbach & c.) of this marriage.
Otto IV's wife was named as "Heilika palatina" and she was heiress of
Lengenfeld, daughter of Friedrich who is usually called "von Pettendorf" but
this is not certain. If correct, his wife was named Heilwig or Heilbirg and
does not appear to be identical with Friedrich I of Swabia's daughter
Heilika who was more probably wife of his namesake uncle. Again, the pieces
of evidence can be, and have been, sorted and assembled in various ways. The
countess palatine Heilika had a sister named Heilwig, wife of Gebhard I of
Leuchternberg.
Peter Stewart