Translation Please.

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Akrogiali

Translation Please.

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 04 aug 2006 06:22:09

There are a few words I do not understand, perhaps Romanian
is there anyone who can help??

These are:

Spatarul = Spatharios ????
Arapache
Fiica Lui = Daughter of ?????
Hrisoscolev
and
Hatmanu

Thanks

Gjest

Re: Translation Please.

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 aug 2006 10:33:01

Akrogiali wrote:
There are a few words I do not understand, perhaps Romanian
is there anyone who can help??

These are:

Spatarul = Spatharios ????
Arapache
Fiica Lui = Daughter of ?????
Hrisoscolev
and
Hatmanu

Thanks

I am taking the liberty of cross-posting this to a-t-r, where it is
still on topic (given that you are looking into Romanian princely
families) and where there is at least one regular poster whose field of
expertise this will touch upon.

MA-R

Akrogiali

Re: Translation Please.

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 06 aug 2006 23:33:52

Thanks.

What's A-T-R ?????/




<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1154683981.735000.55930@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Akrogiali wrote:
There are a few words I do not understand, perhaps Romanian
is there anyone who can help??

These are:

Spatarul = Spatharios ????
Arapache
Fiica Lui = Daughter of ?????
Hrisoscolev
and
Hatmanu

Thanks

I am taking the liberty of cross-posting this to a-t-r, where it is
still on topic (given that you are looking into Romanian princely
families) and where there is at least one regular poster whose field of
expertise this will touch upon.

MA-R

Frank R.A.J. Maloney

Re: Translation Please.

Legg inn av Frank R.A.J. Maloney » 07 aug 2006 01:10:18

Akrogiali wrote:
Thanks.

What's A-T-R ?????/


[deletions]

Check out the Newsgroups: line for the answer.

--
Frank in Seattle
____

Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
"Millennium hand and shrimp."

norenxaq

Re: Translation Please.

Legg inn av norenxaq » 07 aug 2006 01:11:01

Akrogiali wrote:

Thanks.

What's A-T-R ?????/





alt.talk.royalty

mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1154683981.735000.55930@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...


Akrogiali wrote:


There are a few words I do not understand, perhaps Romanian
is there anyone who can help??

These are:

Spatarul = Spatharios ????
Arapache
Fiica Lui = Daughter of ?????
Hrisoscolev
and
Hatmanu

Thanks


I am taking the liberty of cross-posting this to a-t-r, where it is
still on topic (given that you are looking into Romanian princely
families) and where there is at least one regular poster whose field of
expertise this will touch upon.

MA-R







Radu Bogdan

Translated ! [RE : Translation Please.]

Legg inn av Radu Bogdan » 07 aug 2006 10:27:07

1) Spãtar (articulated, "spãtarul", cf. spadã, sword, espée/épée)
= in the classic Roumanian monarchy, "gladiferos" (porteur de la glaive
du souverain)
1a) Mare spatar = grand connétable, grand porte-glaive ; "minister
of the armies / des armées" and later, "minister of interior".
1b) Spatar (simple) = deputy of a grand spatar (sometimes conferred as
"dignité honorifique").

2) Arapache = this is a Roumanian transcription of the word "Arabian"
with a Greek-originated suffix, -akès, -akis.
Family name given to the descendents of an Arabian (most probably a
merchant), "Arap", who settled either in Moldavia, or in Wallachia.

3) Fiica lui = yes, the daughter of ... (cf. fille de, figlia di, etc.)

4) Hrisoscolev = rather Hriscoscoleu, Roumanianised form of the Greek
patronymic "Chrysoskoulaïos". A distinguished Greek family, settled in
Moldavia. A Hriscoscoleu/Chrysoskoulaïos married a Mushat, p-cess of
Moldavia (and their descendants married into the Mavrocordato family).
Extinct.

5) Hatman (articulated : hatmanul ; pl.: hatmani ; cf. Germ. Hauptmann)
= commander-in-chief of the Moldavian armies, "ministre des armées".


R.B.

Radu Bogdan

Re: Translated ! [RE : Translation Please.]

Legg inn av Radu Bogdan » 07 aug 2006 10:31:18

[continuation]


2) Arapache = this is a Roumanian transcription of the word "Arabian"
with a Greek-originated suffix, -akès, -akis.
Family name given to the descendents of an Arabian (most probably a
merchant), "Arap", who settled either in Moldavia, or in Wallachia.


Nota bene : the Greek-influenced diminutives were largely used in the
Phanariot period [1714-1821] ; they are very rare in the 17th or in
19th centuries.

Akrogiali

Re: Translated ! [RE : Translation Please.]

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 08 aug 2006 01:13:50

The name is: Andronic Hrisoscolev Vlasto.
In Greek usually means Andronikos, son of Chrysoskolos Vlastos.
However, it does not sound right.
Does it mean Son of Chrysoskolos and Vlastos (mother?)

4) Hrisoscolev = rather Hriscoscoleu, Roumanianised form of the Greek
patronymic "Chrysoskoulaïos". A distinguished Greek family, settled in
Moldavia. A Hriscoscoleu/Chrysoskoulaïos married a Mushat, p-cess of
Moldavia (and their descendants married into the Mavrocordato family).
Extinct.

The second name I am interested is:
Spatarul Arapache Vlasto

What does it mean.

Taking into account that at least 3 Ghikas married Vlasto family members,
how come there is so little know about those individuals:
For Example: Prince George Ghikas (1600-1664) married Ekaterina Vlastos.
She was the mother of Prince Gregory I, How come her parents are not know
(taking into account that the Vlastos family was by far much older and more
aristocratic then the Ghikas)?




"Radu Bogdan" <sellathonus_2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154942827.046432.128760@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...

1) Spãtar (articulated, "spãtarul", cf. spadã, sword, espée/épée)
= in the classic Roumanian monarchy, "gladiferos" (porteur de la glaive
du souverain)
1a) Mare spatar = grand connétable, grand porte-glaive ; "minister
of the armies / des armées" and later, "minister of interior".
1b) Spatar (simple) = deputy of a grand spatar (sometimes conferred as
"dignité honorifique").

2) Arapache = this is a Roumanian transcription of the word "Arabian"
with a Greek-originated suffix, -akès, -akis.
Family name given to the descendents of an Arabian (most probably a
merchant), "Arap", who settled either in Moldavia, or in Wallachia.

3) Fiica lui = yes, the daughter of ... (cf. fille de, figlia di, etc.)


5) Hatman (articulated : hatmanul ; pl.: hatmani ; cf. Germ. Hauptmann)
= commander-in-chief of the Moldavian armies, "ministre des armées".


R.B.

Radu Bogdan

Ghika / Vlasto [RE : Translation Please.]

Legg inn av Radu Bogdan » 08 aug 2006 08:51:06

Akrogiali wrote:

The name is: Andronic Hrisoscolev Vlasto.
In Greek usually means Andronikos, son of Chrysoskolos Vlastos.
However, it does not sound right.
Does it mean Son of Chrysoskolos and Vlastos (mother?)

Normally, yes. But this Andronikos Chrysoskoulaïos-Vlastos does not
appear in the genealogy of the Roumanian branch of the
Hriscoscoleu/Chrysoskoulaïos family. There was another branch, issued
for George Chrysoskoulaïos.
Where did you spot him ? And in what context ?


The second name I am interested is:
Spatarul Arapache Vlasto
What does it mean.

It's a Court office and a name. "Spatarul" [see below], "Arapache
Vlasto" [name]. In this case, Arapache is a nickname "the
Arabian-like".
Question : is this Vlasto a REAL Vlasto ? Careful with the homophonies
; given his name (and the etymology of him name), Arapache makes me
suspicious, as he probably is not at all a REAL Vlasto.


Taking into account that at least 3 Ghikas married Vlasto family members,
how come there is so little know about those individuals:
For Example: Prince George Ghikas (1600-1664) married Ekaterina Vlastos.
She was the mother of Prince Gregory I, How come her parents are not know
(taking into account that the Vlastos family was by far much older and more
aristocratic then the Ghikas)?

a) The genealogy of the south-eastern European families (Greek,
Albanian or otherwise) established in Wallachia & Moldavia in the 17th
century was ignored because they had settled only recently (I'm
speaking from the 17th-century's point of view) ; they did not own
land, there was no inheritance to transmit, they were not traditionally
involved in politics - nor adminstration - , no autochtonous family was
eager to ally with strangers, and, besides, the Ghikas were not fully
attached to Wallachia & Moldavia : they played for a long time the game
of floating around Bucharest, Iassy and Constantinople, according to
what their political interests demanded.
b) these families themselves were often not interested in who their
ancestors were.

I have to ask you which is your source for the Ghika-Vlasto marriage.
George Ghika _probably_ married a Vlasto ; the Court documents mention
only her Christian name, Ecaterina ; she used to live in Constantinople
and never came in Wallachia.

For the reasons exposed above (next to the fact that the accession of a
Ghika on the throne was due to special circumstances in SE Europe that
were not considered to have legal effects upon the succesion in
Wallachia), her true origins were ignored.


==1) Spãtar (articulated, "spãtarul", cf. spadã, sword, espée/épée)
= in the classic Roumanian monarchy, "gladiferos" (porteur de la glaive
du souverain)
1a) Mare spatar = grand connétable, grand porte-glaive ; "minister of
the armies / des armées" and later, "minister of interior".
1b) Spatar (simple) = deputy of a grand spatar (sometimes conferred as
"dignité honorifique").

Akrogiali

Re: Ghika / Vlasto [RE : Translation Please.]

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 09 aug 2006 00:05:19

There were more than 100 Vlastos Families living in Walachia/Moldavia, the
family base was in Iasi.
I believe they were buying and selling Fur.
The "Palace" (well documented) of the Family was in "Planar" in
Constantinople, not far away from the houses of Ghica, Mavrocordato, etc
(who were also dealing with Fur).
There are numerous marriages recorded between all these families and many
Vlastos in Moldavia/Walachia were "Barons".
I believe, they new each other from Constantinople. In the case of the
Vlastos family, there are not "Real" and "Unreal" Vlastos as DNA shows, ALL
the Vlastos are related.
One of the biggest problems is that "Vlastos" also means a "sprout of new
growth" and every time
and every time a name like for example "Komninos Vlastos" appears, it is
interpreted as a Komninos descentent (new or younger Komninos), but if the
name is Komninos Doukas than there is not question it is named after the
families Komninos and Doukas.

I will give you details of the marriages I know.

regards

George


"Radu Bogdan" <sellathonus_2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1155023466.065465.321150@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Akrogiali wrote:

The name is: Andronic Hrisoscolev Vlasto.
In Greek usually means Andronikos, son of Chrysoskolos Vlastos.
However, it does not sound right.
Does it mean Son of Chrysoskolos and Vlastos (mother?)

Normally, yes. But this Andronikos Chrysoskoulaïos-Vlastos does not
appear in the genealogy of the Roumanian branch of the
Hriscoscoleu/Chrysoskoulaïos family. There was another branch, issued
for George Chrysoskoulaïos.
Where did you spot him ? And in what context ?


The second name I am interested is:
Spatarul Arapache Vlasto
What does it mean.

It's a Court office and a name. "Spatarul" [see below], "Arapache
Vlasto" [name]. In this case, Arapache is a nickname "the
Arabian-like".
Question : is this Vlasto a REAL Vlasto ? Careful with the homophonies
; given his name (and the etymology of him name), Arapache makes me
suspicious, as he probably is not at all a REAL Vlasto.


Taking into account that at least 3 Ghikas married Vlasto family members,
how come there is so little know about those individuals:
For Example: Prince George Ghikas (1600-1664) married Ekaterina Vlastos.
She was the mother of Prince Gregory I, How come her parents are not know
(taking into account that the Vlastos family was by far much older and
more
aristocratic then the Ghikas)?

a) The genealogy of the south-eastern European families (Greek,
Albanian or otherwise) established in Wallachia & Moldavia in the 17th
century was ignored because they had settled only recently (I'm
speaking from the 17th-century's point of view) ; they did not own
land, there was no inheritance to transmit, they were not traditionally
involved in politics - nor adminstration - , no autochtonous family was
eager to ally with strangers, and, besides, the Ghikas were not fully
attached to Wallachia & Moldavia : they played for a long time the game
of floating around Bucharest, Iassy and Constantinople, according to
what their political interests demanded.
b) these families themselves were often not interested in who their
ancestors were.

I have to ask you which is your source for the Ghika-Vlasto marriage.
George Ghika _probably_ married a Vlasto ; the Court documents mention
only her Christian name, Ecaterina ; she used to live in Constantinople
and never came in Wallachia.

For the reasons exposed above (next to the fact that the accession of a
Ghika on the throne was due to special circumstances in SE Europe that
were not considered to have legal effects upon the succesion in
Wallachia), her true origins were ignored.


===
1) Spãtar (articulated, "spãtarul", cf. spadã, sword, espée/épée)
= in the classic Roumanian monarchy, "gladiferos" (porteur de la glaive
du souverain)
1a) Mare spatar = grand connétable, grand porte-glaive ; "minister of
the armies / des armées" and later, "minister of interior".
1b) Spatar (simple) = deputy of a grand spatar (sometimes conferred as
"dignité honorifique").

Akrogiali

Re: Ghika / Vlasto [RE : Translation Please.]

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 09 aug 2006 01:46:54

There are OVER 20 marriages between the Vlastos and the Mavrocordato Family.

Some of the marriages I know from Moldavia/Walachia.
There are many more I do not know.

Andronikos Vlastos (b. 1690)= Maria Ghica (2nd Husband)
Caterina Vlastos = Prince George Ghica
Spatarul (?) Vlastos = Smaragda Ghica

Gregory Vlastos (d.1755) = Sevasti Callimachi (1st Husband)

Cassandra Vlastos = Nikolao Caradja
Dr. Thomas Vlastos (d. 1650) = Asanina Caradja

Despina Vlastos = Michael Synadinos

Zenna Vlastos = Pantely Mavrocordato
Theodoro Vlastos = Mavrocordato
Franga Vlastos = George Mavrocordatos

Argyro Vlastos = Choremi
Antonio Vlastos = Jana Choremi

Sigure Vlastos = Count Cristoforo Capnissi

Petro Vlastos = Marina Siguro

Ioannis Vlastos = Calliope Plaitoglou (?)

Baron Gregory Vlastos = Princess Kantakouzinos (daughter of Prince Serban)

Georgii Vlastos Gov. General of Stavropol
Igor Vlastos, Russian General (Russian Hero)

regards
George












"Radu Bogdan" <sellathonus_2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1155023466.065465.321150@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Akrogiali wrote:

The name is: Andronic Hrisoscolev Vlasto.
In Greek usually means Andronikos, son of Chrysoskolos Vlastos.
However, it does not sound right.
Does it mean Son of Chrysoskolos and Vlastos (mother?)

Normally, yes. But this Andronikos Chrysoskoulaïos-Vlastos does not
appear in the genealogy of the Roumanian branch of the
Hriscoscoleu/Chrysoskoulaïos family. There was another branch, issued
for George Chrysoskoulaïos.
Where did you spot him ? And in what context ?


The second name I am interested is:
Spatarul Arapache Vlasto
What does it mean.

It's a Court office and a name. "Spatarul" [see below], "Arapache
Vlasto" [name]. In this case, Arapache is a nickname "the
Arabian-like".
Question : is this Vlasto a REAL Vlasto ? Careful with the homophonies
; given his name (and the etymology of him name), Arapache makes me
suspicious, as he probably is not at all a REAL Vlasto.


Taking into account that at least 3 Ghikas married Vlasto family members,
how come there is so little know about those individuals:
For Example: Prince George Ghikas (1600-1664) married Ekaterina Vlastos.
She was the mother of Prince Gregory I, How come her parents are not know
(taking into account that the Vlastos family was by far much older and
more
aristocratic then the Ghikas)?

a) The genealogy of the south-eastern European families (Greek,
Albanian or otherwise) established in Wallachia & Moldavia in the 17th
century was ignored because they had settled only recently (I'm
speaking from the 17th-century's point of view) ; they did not own
land, there was no inheritance to transmit, they were not traditionally
involved in politics - nor adminstration - , no autochtonous family was
eager to ally with strangers, and, besides, the Ghikas were not fully
attached to Wallachia & Moldavia : they played for a long time the game
of floating around Bucharest, Iassy and Constantinople, according to
what their political interests demanded.
b) these families themselves were often not interested in who their
ancestors were.

I have to ask you which is your source for the Ghika-Vlasto marriage.
George Ghika _probably_ married a Vlasto ; the Court documents mention
only her Christian name, Ecaterina ; she used to live in Constantinople
and never came in Wallachia.

For the reasons exposed above (next to the fact that the accession of a
Ghika on the throne was due to special circumstances in SE Europe that
were not considered to have legal effects upon the succesion in
Wallachia), her true origins were ignored.


===
1) Spãtar (articulated, "spãtarul", cf. spadã, sword, espée/épée)
= in the classic Roumanian monarchy, "gladiferos" (porteur de la glaive
du souverain)
1a) Mare spatar = grand connétable, grand porte-glaive ; "minister of
the armies / des armées" and later, "minister of interior".
1b) Spatar (simple) = deputy of a grand spatar (sometimes conferred as
"dignité honorifique").

Radu Bogdan

Re: Ghika / Vlasto [RE : Translation Please.]

Legg inn av Radu Bogdan » 09 aug 2006 12:15:41

Thank you for this information ; I'd like to confront it to information
given by several genealogists from Greece and Roumania ; could you
specify the source ? I'd be most grateful.

regards,
RB


Akrogiali wrote:
There are OVER 20 marriages between the Vlastos and the Mavrocordato Family.

Some of the marriages I know from Moldavia/Walachia.
There are many more I do not know.

Andronikos Vlastos (b. 1690)= Maria Ghica (2nd Husband)
Caterina Vlastos = Prince George Ghica
Spatarul (?) Vlastos = Smaragda Ghica

Gregory Vlastos (d.1755) = Sevasti Callimachi (1st Husband)

Cassandra Vlastos = Nikolao Caradja
Dr. Thomas Vlastos (d. 1650) = Asanina Caradja

Despina Vlastos = Michael Synadinos

Zenna Vlastos = Pantely Mavrocordato
Theodoro Vlastos = Mavrocordato
Franga Vlastos = George Mavrocordatos

Argyro Vlastos = Choremi
Antonio Vlastos = Jana Choremi

Sigure Vlastos = Count Cristoforo Capnissi

Petro Vlastos = Marina Siguro

Ioannis Vlastos = Calliope Plaitoglou (?)

Baron Gregory Vlastos = Princess Kantakouzinos (daughter of Prince Serban)

Georgii Vlastos Gov. General of Stavropol
Igor Vlastos, Russian General (Russian Hero)

regards
George

Akrogiali

Re: Ghika / Vlasto [RE : Translation Please.]

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 10 aug 2006 00:28:59

Hi,

There are many different sources, some from Russian Websites some from
Russian Historians.
There is also some info in Ghica's Web site showing 4 marriages (that I new
from other places), 3 with Ghica and 1 with Callimachi families.
With the Mavrocordato families there are more than 20 marriages.
There are also marriages with the Rosetti family.

There is a little bit of Information in Martin Crucius "Turcograecia"
publication, Basel 1584.
In this publication, I found for the first time the location of the Vlastos
residence in Constantinople (16th century, which I hope to see next month).
There is also info in Sturdza's Book about the Greek Aristocratic Families
(not under Vlastos).

What I did not mention in my previous message, is also the fact that in
Bucharest Museum (I do not know which one) is a religious dress of a Gregory
Vlastos on display, he was a Monk or Priest in Iasi area between 1500-1600.
Also two Vlastos Architects (Father & Son) were very famous in 18th/19th
century Russia,

regards

George.

PS: My mother is Vlastos, and I have some 80% of the Vlastos Genealogical
Tree. The members of the family I do not have were living mainly in Ukraine,
Moldavia and Walachia.



"Radu Bogdan" <sellathonus_2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1155122141.072078.208010@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Thank you for this information ; I'd like to confront it to information
given by several genealogists from Greece and Roumania ; could you
specify the source ? I'd be most grateful.

regards,
RB


Akrogiali wrote:
There are OVER 20 marriages between the Vlastos and the Mavrocordato
Family.

Some of the marriages I know from Moldavia/Walachia.
There are many more I do not know.

Andronikos Vlastos (b. 1690)= Maria Ghica (2nd Husband)
Caterina Vlastos = Prince George Ghica
Spatarul (?) Vlastos = Smaragda Ghica

Gregory Vlastos (d.1755) = Sevasti Callimachi (1st Husband)

Cassandra Vlastos = Nikolao Caradja
Dr. Thomas Vlastos (d. 1650) = Asanina Caradja

Despina Vlastos = Michael Synadinos

Zenna Vlastos = Pantely Mavrocordato
Theodoro Vlastos = Mavrocordato
Franga Vlastos = George Mavrocordatos

Argyro Vlastos = Choremi
Antonio Vlastos = Jana Choremi

Sigure Vlastos = Count Cristoforo Capnissi

Petro Vlastos = Marina Siguro

Ioannis Vlastos = Calliope Plaitoglou (?)

Baron Gregory Vlastos = Princess Kantakouzinos (daughter of Prince
Serban)

Georgii Vlastos Gov. General of Stavropol
Igor Vlastos, Russian General (Russian Hero)

regards
George

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