Some years ago, as a grad student in Toronto already writing my dissertation
on Eleanor of Castile, I was approached by George Rigg, a professor of
medieval Latin there, who wanted to see if the English "Eleanor" had
anything to do with the English "Helen." Rigg was interested in the
popularity of the Trojan War legends in medieval literature & thought any
similarity between the names might offer some insight into the topics he was
then researching.
We managed to make the project last for some months & then gave up as we
agreed there was no basis to frame an argument, let alone evidence to prove
one. My notes, which did contain a fairly lengthy catalogue of A- & E-
forms of the name from English sources, were of no further use or interest
to me so I gave them to Rigg, who probably disposed of them upon his
retirement some years ago, if not even earlier. I can't blame him in the
slightest for doing so.
I recall a brief series of discussions on whether "Alienordis" or similar
forms might indicate a Nordic origin--as in Hjordis, etc. I am glad to say
we abandoned that theory rather quickly, again purely for lack of evidence.
From my work in English wardrobe, exchequer and chancery records in the 12th
and 13th centuries, A- forms (Alianor(a), Alienor(a)) are pre-eminent in
these records as far as the 3 queens of the name are concerned. Usually
these records abbreviate the queens' names as "A." so it is rarely possible
to understand what nominative spelling the scribes might have meant. But
the genitive form "Alianore/Alienore" was written out, so the implied
nominative as far as the queens' names were concerned must have been
"Alianora" or "Alienora."
The question is complicated by the fact that in 12th- and 13th-century Spain
the common spelling was "Leonor," "Lionor," "Lyonor," sometimes "Lionors,"
"Lyonors," or the like--no initial vowel. How & why that vowel was added,
whether"A" or "E," may be critical to the discussion.
What differences existed between "A" spellings and "E" spellings may have
involved differences in French & English pronunciation. Medieval spelling
tended to reflect pronunciation more closely than modern spellings & it
would be understandable if what was spoken (& written) as "Alianora" on the
Continent might have been spoken (& written) as "Elianora" in England. But
a phonologist would have to pronounce [sorry!] on that theory. In any case,
it would mean there is no etymological connection between "Eleanor" and
"Helen." As has been suggested here already, any relationship between the
two names would seem to rest on simple confusion as the initial "Elean-" &
"Helen" sound alike. (That, essentially, was what Rigg and I concluded
around 1980.)
The English fine posted here yesterday or earlier today, in which the same
woman appears as Helen & Eleanor, may suggest an interesting possibility.
Thanks to the work of Georges Duby, we are familiar with the phenomenon of
the dissemination of cultural models from the top down--i.e., from the
aristocracy to the rest of society. We know that the name "Helen" was
already well dispersed in England by the period of the document in question,
and that there had been queens in England named Alianor/Eleanor. Is it
possible that women such as the lady in the fine, already named Helen, took
to calling themselves "Eleanor" in imitation or emulation of the royal name?
We also have to allow for the expertise, or lack thereof, of the scribes who
wrote such documents. How many times might it have happened that a scribe,
ready to quit at the end of the day or trying to save space on a scrap of
parchment, wrote "Helen/Elen" because it was shorter than "Eleanor" but
sounded similar? (Those familiar with the intricate medieval system of
scribal abbreviations will understand what is meant here.)
George Beech's theory on the name was contained in a conference paper he
read at the Kalamazoo conference many years ago. His ideas derived from the
supposed appearance of the name in the Norman ducal house in the late 10th
or early 11th centuries--an "Eleanor" of Normandy who was the 2nd wife of
Baldwin IV of Flanders. Later Beech saw that the attribution of the name
"Eleanor" to this woman is not found in contemporary chronicles; she appears
as an unnamed daughter of the count/duke of Normandy. Evidently she got
stuck with the name Eleanor at some later date. In the same paper, Beech
theorized the existence of a viscountess of Thouars with the same name,
possibly descended from the Norman lady or a sister. As far as I am aware
he has never published that paper.
Beech was one of my instructors when I prepared my M.A. at Western Michigan
in 1969-70 & when working on my doctoral thesis, I corresponded with him
about the Arabic "Alia" + "Nur" theory. He had pursued this in connection
with the artifact known as the "Eleanor vase," whose inscription he was the
first to expound. George wrote that he had asked an Arab expert & was told
that to make sense, the order in Arabic would have to be "Nur" first and
then "Alia," which gives nothing close to "Alianor."
Regards
John Parsons
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Alianor/Eleanor
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Stewart Baldwin
Re: Alianor/Eleanor
On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 15:01:58 +0000 (UTC), carmi47@msn.com ("John
Parsons") wrote:
[snip]
That theory is discussed in George Beech's paper "The Participation of
Aquitanians in the Conquest of England 1066-1100", Anglo-Norman
Studies 9 (1986), 1-24.
Stewart Baldwin
Parsons") wrote:
[snip]
George Beech's theory on the name was contained in a conference paper he
read at the Kalamazoo conference many years ago. His ideas derived from the
supposed appearance of the name in the Norman ducal house in the late 10th
or early 11th centuries--an "Eleanor" of Normandy who was the 2nd wife of
Baldwin IV of Flanders. Later Beech saw that the attribution of the name
"Eleanor" to this woman is not found in contemporary chronicles; she appears
as an unnamed daughter of the count/duke of Normandy. Evidently she got
stuck with the name Eleanor at some later date. In the same paper, Beech
theorized the existence of a viscountess of Thouars with the same name,
possibly descended from the Norman lady or a sister. As far as I am aware
he has never published that paper.
That theory is discussed in George Beech's paper "The Participation of
Aquitanians in the Conquest of England 1066-1100", Anglo-Norman
Studies 9 (1986), 1-24.
Stewart Baldwin
-
Matt Tompkins
Re: Alianor/Eleanor
"John Parsons" wrote:
The voice of authority! I had already withdrawn from the lists, but I
certainly won't re-enter them. Except for one little comment:
The El- spellings in that Norman document from the Bibliotheque de
l'Arsenal do tend to suggest that the Elianora form was not confined to
England (or are they unique in continental sources?).
Matt Tompkins
Some years ago, as a grad student in Toronto already writing my dissertation
on Eleanor of Castile, I was approached by George Rigg, a professor of
medieval Latin there, who wanted to see if the English "Eleanor" had
anything to do with the English "Helen." Rigg was interested in the
popularity of the Trojan War legends in medieval literature & thought any
similarity between the names might offer some insight into the topics he was
then researching.
The voice of authority! I had already withdrawn from the lists, but I
certainly won't re-enter them. Except for one little comment:
What differences existed between "A" spellings and "E" spellings may have
involved differences in French & English pronunciation. Medieval spelling
tended to reflect pronunciation more closely than modern spellings & it
would be understandable if what was spoken (& written) as "Alianora" on the
Continent might have been spoken (& written) as "Elianora" in England. But
The El- spellings in that Norman document from the Bibliotheque de
l'Arsenal do tend to suggest that the Elianora form was not confined to
England (or are they unique in continental sources?).
Matt Tompkins
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Alianor/Eleanor
"Matt Tompkins" <mllt1@le.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:1154623882.112279.243960@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ho hum - not only are you incapable of addressing the salient points raised
in the thread, but evidently you are not up to reading the posts unless the
signature is of someone who hasn't ruffled your feathers.
Just yesterday I posted:
As to early versions of the name with initial 'El-', these are not unusual.
For instance, a charter of Alienor of Aquitaine's niece dated 1184: "Ego
Elienor, Dei gratia comitissa Bellomontis et heres Viromandie"; and another
in 1189: "Elyenor.illustris comitis Perone Radulfi filia". In other
documents she was more typically called Alienordis, and at least once
Lyenordis as posted earlier."
and further:
It should be pointed out that this lady was countess of Saint-Quentin &
Crépy and heiress of Vermandois by inheritance, and by marriage she was
successively countess of Ostrevant, of Nevers, Auxerre & Tonnerre, and of
Boulogne. In other words, her life was passed in the heartland of veneration
of St Helen according to Matt Tompkins ("her cult was a northern one,
centered on the counties of Champagne, Flanders and Brabant, and especially
on the cathedral cities of Troyes, Rheims and Auxerre").
No wonder you have "withdrawn" from the debate, having lost it so
comprehensively.
The only acknowledgement you have made to the point at issue is that the
(total) lack of evidence for your proposal is a "defect" in the argument.
This is like the captain of the Titanic saying "I acknowledge a leak" as his
ship hit the bottom of the Atlantic.
Peter Stewart
news:1154623882.112279.243960@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
"John Parsons" wrote:
Some years ago, as a grad student in Toronto already writing my
dissertation
on Eleanor of Castile, I was approached by George Rigg, a professor of
medieval Latin there, who wanted to see if the English "Eleanor" had
anything to do with the English "Helen." Rigg was interested in the
popularity of the Trojan War legends in medieval literature & thought any
similarity between the names might offer some insight into the topics he
was
then researching.
The voice of authority! I had already withdrawn from the lists, but I
certainly won't re-enter them. Except for one little comment:
What differences existed between "A" spellings and "E" spellings may have
involved differences in French & English pronunciation. Medieval
spelling
tended to reflect pronunciation more closely than modern spellings & it
would be understandable if what was spoken (& written) as "Alianora" on
the
Continent might have been spoken (& written) as "Elianora" in England.
But
The El- spellings in that Norman document from the Bibliotheque de
l'Arsenal do tend to suggest that the Elianora form was not confined to
England (or are they unique in continental sources?).
Ho hum - not only are you incapable of addressing the salient points raised
in the thread, but evidently you are not up to reading the posts unless the
signature is of someone who hasn't ruffled your feathers.
Just yesterday I posted:
As to early versions of the name with initial 'El-', these are not unusual.
For instance, a charter of Alienor of Aquitaine's niece dated 1184: "Ego
Elienor, Dei gratia comitissa Bellomontis et heres Viromandie"; and another
in 1189: "Elyenor.illustris comitis Perone Radulfi filia". In other
documents she was more typically called Alienordis, and at least once
Lyenordis as posted earlier."
and further:
It should be pointed out that this lady was countess of Saint-Quentin &
Crépy and heiress of Vermandois by inheritance, and by marriage she was
successively countess of Ostrevant, of Nevers, Auxerre & Tonnerre, and of
Boulogne. In other words, her life was passed in the heartland of veneration
of St Helen according to Matt Tompkins ("her cult was a northern one,
centered on the counties of Champagne, Flanders and Brabant, and especially
on the cathedral cities of Troyes, Rheims and Auxerre").
No wonder you have "withdrawn" from the debate, having lost it so
comprehensively.
The only acknowledgement you have made to the point at issue is that the
(total) lack of evidence for your proposal is a "defect" in the argument.
This is like the captain of the Titanic saying "I acknowledge a leak" as his
ship hit the bottom of the Atlantic.
Peter Stewart