Patrick Danielston and King Robert III of Scots

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Patrick Danielston and King Robert III of Scots

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 jun 2006 17:00:02

Saturday, 24 June 2006


Hello All,

In a previous post to SGM, I had suggested that Sir Robert de
Danielston (or Denniston) of that Ilk was the son of a previously
unknown daughter (evidently illegitimate) of King Robert II of Scots,
most likely by Isabella le Boutellier ["Boucellier"] or another early
mistress [1]. This was largely based on the known relationship
between Sir Robert's daughter Margaret Danielston and Lady Mary
(or Mariota) Stewart (daughter of King Robert II) [2], and the
documentation of a dispensation for Sir Robert's younger daughter
Elizabeth Danielston and her husband Sir Robert de Maxwell
(great-nephew of King Robert II) in which Sir Robert de Danielstoun
was called 'nephew of the Duke [of Albany]' [3].

Another interesting document has come to light which appears to
underline this relationship between the Danielstons and the
Stewarts. This document involves negotiations by King Robert III
seeking to regain control of Dumbarton castle, seized by Walter
Danielstoun after the death of Sir Robert Danielstoun in 1397:

' 1398, October 29. - Bond of relief by King Robert the Third
under his privy seal in favour of Thomas of Erskyne, knight,
John of Montgomery, John Sympill, James Stewart of Kylbryde,
Humphrey of Culquwne, Malcolm of Galbrathe, John of Park, and
James of Spot, promising to keep them scatheless in respect of
their becoming cautioners for him in the agreement between him
and Mr. Walter of Danyelstoun respecting the delivery of the
king's castle of Dumbarton, and of his other goods, and his
nephew (or grandson) Patrick of Danyelstoun. Dated at
Dunbrettan. [Latin, on parchment, with small part of seal
remaining on tag] . ' [4]

The terminology would best be understood from the original Latin,
but the wording appears to indicate:

A. ' his other goods ' [following reference to 'the king's
castle of Dumbarton '] would refer to 'the king's' goods,
not those of Walter Danielston.

B. ' his nephew (or grandson) Patrick of Danyelstoun ',
likewise appears to refer to 'the king's nephew', not
that of Walter Danielston.

From the rendering in the translation of the reference to Patrick
Danielston as 'his hephew (or grandson)' makes it clear the original
Latin term used was <nepos>. The relationship inferred from the above
would agree with my prior conjecture (Sir Robert Danielston having
been called 'hephew of the Duke [of Albany]', which Duke was the
brother of King Robert III) if this Patrick Danielston was brother,
or possibly the son [who must then have o.s.p.] of Sir Robert
Danielston.

The relationships described in the above would appear as follows:

[NOTE: Individuals cited in the dispensations under discussion
are CAPITALIZED. Marriages dispensed, but not known to have
taken place, are indicated "x". The conjectured illegitimate
connection to the daughter of Robert II is shown thus: ........]


1) Marjory Bruce = Walter Stewart = 2) Isabel Graham
______I I__________________
I I
* NN (Isabella ~ Robert II = 1) Elizabeth Sir James = Egidia
Boucellier ?) . d. 1390 I Mure Lindsay I Stewart
. I I
................ ______I___________ I_____
. I I I
NN = Sir John Robert III ROBERT Sir John = Isabel
I Danielston d. 1406 D of ALBANY Maxwell I Lindsay
_I____________ I I
I I I I
SIR ROBERT PATRICK I__________ I
DANIELSTON I I
__I____________________________ I _____________ I____
I I I I
I I I I
MARGARET = Sir William x MARY ELIZABETH = SIR ROBERT
DANIELSTON I de Cunyngham STEWART DANIELSTON I de MAXWELL
I =1) George I
I Douglas V
SIR ROBERT CUNYNGHAM =2) James
of Kilmaurs Kennedy
I I I
V V V



I recently asked Andrew MacEwen about the original charter. He
indicated that (unfortunately) his own experience re: the Mar charters
is that they still exist, but that many (if not most) are in poor
condition including one particular document which he had sought. It
appears that obtaining a transcript of the original Latin text of
this charter is unlikely.

My current opinion, as expressed in the above chart, is that this
Patrick Danielston was a younger full brother of Sir Robert. I am
inclined to view Walter Danielston as a younger brother, quite likely
half-brother, of Sir Robert - he certainly was never in a genuinely
good relationship with King Robert III (but then, what of his nephew
Donald, Lord of the Isles...?).

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] J. Ravilious, <SP Addition: Sir Robert de Danielston, grandson
of Robert II of Scots>, SGM, 1 Dec 2005.


[2] The dispensation for Sir William Cunyngham to marry (as a
2nd/subsequent wife) Lady Mary Stewart, from Francis McGurk,
ed. Calendar of Papal Letters to Scotland of Benedict XIII
of Avignon, 1394-1419 (Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, 1976),
p. 207, dated at Perpignan, 7 July 1409:

‘ Reg Aven 333, 519v
To Sir William Cunyngham, lord of Kylmaubris, and the
noblewoman Marjory Stewart, widow of James Kennedy, doncel,
Glasgow diocese. Dispensation is granted for William to
marry Marjory notwithstanding that Margaret, William’s first
wife, was related to Marjory in the second and third degrees
of consanguinity <1>.
Perpignan, Elne diocese, Non. Jul., anno 15; expedited
6 Id. Jul., anno 15 [10 July, 1409].
SRO, Vat. Trans., iv, no. 86.

<1> See CPP, i, 639. ‘


[3] Francis McGurk, ibid., pp. 270-1, dated at Tortosa on 27 April
1413:

‘ Reg Aven 341, 521-2
To William, bishop of Glasgow. Robert, duke of Albany,
had wanted Elizabeth Danyelston, daughter of the late Sir
Robert de Danyelston, nephew of the duke, to marry Sir
Robert de Maxwell, Glasgow diocese, but as they were related
in the fourth degree of consanguinity a dispensation was
necessary. Peter, formerly bishop of Tusculum, cardinal
priest of St. Peter in Chains and, at that time, before the
withdrawal of France’s obedience, penitentiary of Pope
Benedict, sent letters in mandate to Dugall, bishop of
Dunblane or to his vicar in spiritualities, and on the
strength of these letters Dugall dispensed Elizabeth and
Robert de Maxwell to marry. Elizabeth and Robert did so
and lived together for more than seven years, during which
time they had six or seven children; but subsequently
Elizabeth separated from Robert on the grounds that at the
time the letters were sent to Dugall, bishop of Dublane,
Peter had withdrawn his obedience from Benedict and
therefore both the letters and the marriage were invalid.
The pope, at the petition of the aforesaid duke, declares
the marriage to be valid, the children legitimate and
dispenses Elizabeth and Robert to live together as husband
and wife.
Tortosa, 5 Kal. Maii, anno 19; expedited, 3 Id. Jul.,
anno 19 [13 July, 1413].
SRO, Vat. Trans., iv, no. 105. '


[4] Historical Manuscripts Commission, Report on the Manuscripts of
the Earl of Mar and Kellie Preserved at Alloa House, N.B.
(London: Printed for Her Majesty's Stationery Office, by
Ben Johnson and Company, York, 1904), p. 7.


* John P. Ravilious

John P. Ravilious

Re: Patrick Danielston and King Robert III of Scots

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 24 jun 2006 22:24:15

Hello All,

Please note the following correction: in the first paragraph of
the original post,

for " Lady Mary
(or Mariota) Stewart (daughter of King Robert II) [2],..."

read " Lady Mary
(or Mariota) Stewart (daughter of King Robert III) [2],..."

Right lady, wrong father......

Cheers,

John



Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Saturday, 24 June 2006


Hello All,

In a previous post to SGM, I had suggested that Sir Robert de
Danielston (or Denniston) of that Ilk was the son of a previously
unknown daughter (evidently illegitimate) of King Robert II of Scots,
most likely by Isabella le Boutellier ["Boucellier"] or another early
mistress [1]. This was largely based on the known relationship
between Sir Robert's daughter Margaret Danielston and Lady Mary
(or Mariota) Stewart (daughter of King Robert II) [2], and the
documentation of a dispensation for Sir Robert's younger daughter
Elizabeth Danielston and her husband Sir Robert de Maxwell
(great-nephew of King Robert II) in which Sir Robert de Danielstoun
was called 'nephew of the Duke [of Albany]' [3].


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