Good Morning All,
This is the addition to the last post on John Butler, the 6th E of
Ormonde that I said I would post and hope some may be able to add and
some will find interesting. I know some will not like it. I have tried
to put this in chronological order with some source material and my
notes.
1452 James succeeds to the title of 5th E of Ormonde on the death of
his father.
1461 Edward IV K of England 1461-1470
1461 Battle of Towton James 5th E of Ormonde beheaded May 1, 1461
1461 English Act of Attainder James, John and Thomas attainted
1461 Irish Act of Attainder Only James and John attainted
1470 Edward IV defeated flees to Holland
1470-71 Henry VI king of England
1471 Battle of Tewkesbury, John Butler, 6th E of Ormonde reported
Killed**** 1st death
1471 Edward IV restored King of England
1475 Irish Act of Restituition c-12 Only James and Johns attainder are
annulled, Thomas is not mentioned
1476 John Butler, 6th E of Ormonde dies, Lord Dunboyne, Butler
Society**** 2nd death
1476 Thomas succeeds to Earldom of Ormonde, Lord Dunboyne, Butler
Society
1478 John Butler 6th E of Ormonde dies, pilgrimage to the Holy
Land**** 3rd death
Note: 3 different death dates, if Richard III Society knew or had proof
of his not being killed at the Battle of Tewkesbury they would not have
included it as reported so, they are pretty meticulous as I understand
it. Further: Edward the IV restored John to the Earldom of Ormonde and
used him in ambassadorial duties abroad. and allegedly referred to him
as a "gentleman and the goodliest knight in all Christendom'(
paraphrased) between what periods?
1461-1470 or 1471-1478 at the latest!! Note further that in 1475 it is
only James and John whose attainder is reversed and not Thomas. This
effectively frees any of their children to inherit.
1483 Edward IV dies
1483 Richard III becomes King of England
1485 Richard III dies
Note: Thomas Butler is considered and ENGLISH Baron under Richard III
and Henry VII
1485 Henry VII becomes King of England
1485 November, Attainder abrogated by English parliment from Attainder
of I Edward IV
1487 Irish Act of Attainder c-2 against William Butler(Dunboyne) and
Thomas Butler(Ormonde) for treason for adhering to Henry VII
1492-94 James Ormond (Butler) son of John Butler E of Ormonde, Lord
treasurer of Ireland
1493 James Ormond (Butler) knighted by Henry VII
1495 Thomas Butler summoned to parliment as Thomas Ormond de Rochford
1497 Sir James Ormond (Butler) Killed by Piers Butler
Note: Henry VII has his parliment abbrogate the attainder of 1461 but
that Thomas' titles and lands are not restored. As Thomas is not
mentioned in the Irish act of attainder in 1461 it is constituted in
1487 for adhering to Henry VII. What little is known is that the title
of Earl of Ormonde is an Irish title-not English, it is why Henry VII
could not reconfer nor the English parliment that said title, only the
Irish parliment. Now as James and his brother John had their attainder
annuled and were also the Earls of Wiltshire, Thomas could have that
title, as it was English and his daughter who married William Boylen
would have become Viscount and his son Thomas who would have inherited
that title who was the father of Ann Bolyen, one-time Queen of England,
could therefore have been raised as Earl of Wiltshire, which is what
happened.
Note: After the battle of Towton, Thomas Butler NEVER stepped foot in
Ireland again, He had Sir James Ormond act as his govenor and Lawyer,
it was the Irish parliment that recognized Sir james Ormond and several
Irish-English nobles as the rightful heir of John Butler, 6th E of
Ormonde, it was not that he was illigitimate churchwise but that his
father broke an English Act forbidding the inter-marriage of
Norman-saxon nobles with Irish nobility, the Irish had no problems with
that,quite obviously. Accorrdingly tho, per the emminent Dr. Michael
Jones, if the mother was married, only if the father dis-owns the child
at birth, can the child be considered illigitimate by English law and
Sir James Ormond was not!! nor was his brother John.
1515 Thomas Butler dies
1515 Piers Butler, his cousin "Styles" himself the E of Ormonde
1528 Piers Butler surrenders his "CLAIM" to the title Earl of Ormonde
1538 Piers Butler Created Earl of Ormonde by parliment
MOST IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1544 Act of Parliment confirmed his title of Earl of Ormonde of the
1328 creation not created new in 1538.
Note: Thomas Butler was "Styled E of O", as Piers, his cousin, "Styled"
himself until 1538. Technically there was no E of Ormonde from either
1471 1476, 1478 after the death of John as far as the English were
concerned or after 1497 as far as the Irish were concerned after the
death of Sir James Ormond, and it was their title. it is NOT as some in
the Butler Society claim, that any current claim to the E of O must be
figured from James the 9th erroneously, but any heirs of 1st line
descent from 1328 as stated by an act of parliment.
Any thoughts and additional info. is welcome and appeciated
Hope you all enjoy.
Best Regards as Always
Emmett L. Butler
A Strangeness: Death(s) of John Butler, 6th E of Ormonde, pl
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: A Strangeness: Death(s) of John Butler, 6th E of Ormonde
butlergrt@aol.com schrieb:
If what you state in relation to the Irish attainder is true (viz that
it affected only John and James) then there is no reason for the Irish
restitution act to mention Thomas, who was never attainted in Ireland.
1452 James succeeds to the title of 5th E of Ormonde on the death of
his father.
1461 Edward IV K of England 1461-1470
1461 Battle of Towton James 5th E of Ormonde beheaded May 1, 1461
1461 English Act of Attainder James, John and Thomas attainted
1461 Irish Act of Attainder Only James and John attainted
1470 Edward IV defeated flees to Holland
1470-71 Henry VI king of England
1471 Battle of Tewkesbury, John Butler, 6th E of Ormonde reported
Killed**** 1st death
1471 Edward IV restored King of England
1475 Irish Act of Restituition c-12 Only James and Johns attainder are
annulled, Thomas is not mentioned
1476 John Butler, 6th E of Ormonde dies, Lord Dunboyne, Butler
Society**** 2nd death
1476 Thomas succeeds to Earldom of Ormonde, Lord Dunboyne, Butler
Society
1478 John Butler 6th E of Ormonde dies, pilgrimage to the Holy
Land**** 3rd death
Note further that in 1475 it is
only James and John whose attainder is reversed and not Thomas. This
effectively frees any of their children to inherit.
If what you state in relation to the Irish attainder is true (viz that
it affected only John and James) then there is no reason for the Irish
restitution act to mention Thomas, who was never attainted in Ireland.
-
Gjest
Re: A Strangeness: Death(s) of John Butler, 6th E of Ormonde
Good Afternoon Mcjar et Al,
That is quite true, as I understand it, but not able to prove,
secondary source only and my notes, that Thomas was a minor at the
time of the battle of Towton 1461. I think it may have been possible,
speculation only, that the Irish parliment may have been more forgiving
of a minor at the battle, the English were not. I have read that it was
only a few years previous that Edward IV reconciled with John which to
me of course seems likely as to why the Irish Restituition Act of 1475
and more like John probably did die on the way to Rome or after leaving
it for the holy land.
That is why I am hoping there may be some out there with more documents
or information to toss into the pot.
Regardless, neither Thomas nor Piers were ever recognized as the Earl
of Ormonde in that time frame by the English nor the Irish other than
"Styled" and Piers once again not until 1538.
estates, as one of his grandsons,(Boylens) inherited no less than 36
manors from his mother. A goodly number. But all English estates.
Best Regards as Always,
Emmett L. Butler
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
That is quite true, as I understand it, but not able to prove,
secondary source only and my notes, that Thomas was a minor at the
time of the battle of Towton 1461. I think it may have been possible,
speculation only, that the Irish parliment may have been more forgiving
of a minor at the battle, the English were not. I have read that it was
only a few years previous that Edward IV reconciled with John which to
me of course seems likely as to why the Irish Restituition Act of 1475
and more like John probably did die on the way to Rome or after leaving
it for the holy land.
That is why I am hoping there may be some out there with more documents
or information to toss into the pot.
Regardless, neither Thomas nor Piers were ever recognized as the Earl
of Ormonde in that time frame by the English nor the Irish other than
"Styled" and Piers once again not until 1538.
From what I have been able to ascertain, neither of Thomas Butler's
daughters inherited any of his Irish estates, only those of his English
estates, as one of his grandsons,(Boylens) inherited no less than 36
manors from his mother. A goodly number. But all English estates.
Best Regards as Always,
Emmett L. Butler
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
butlergrt@aol.com schrieb:
1452 James succeeds to the title of 5th E of Ormonde on the death of
his father.
1461 Edward IV K of England 1461-1470
1461 Battle of Towton James 5th E of Ormonde beheaded May 1, 1461
1461 English Act of Attainder James, John and Thomas attainted
1461 Irish Act of Attainder Only James and John attainted
1470 Edward IV defeated flees to Holland
1470-71 Henry VI king of England
1471 Battle of Tewkesbury, John Butler, 6th E of Ormonde reported
Killed**** 1st death
1471 Edward IV restored King of England
1475 Irish Act of Restituition c-12 Only James and Johns attainder are
annulled, Thomas is not mentioned
1476 John Butler, 6th E of Ormonde dies, Lord Dunboyne, Butler
Society**** 2nd death
1476 Thomas succeeds to Earldom of Ormonde, Lord Dunboyne, Butler
Society
1478 John Butler 6th E of Ormonde dies, pilgrimage to the Holy
Land**** 3rd death
Note further that in 1475 it is
only James and John whose attainder is reversed and not Thomas. This
effectively frees any of their children to inherit.
If what you state in relation to the Irish attainder is true (viz that
it affected only John and James) then there is no reason for the Irish
restitution act to mention Thomas, who was never attainted in Ireland.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: A Strangeness: Death(s) of John Butler, 6th E of Ormonde
Dear Emmett ~
I very much enjoy reading your posts on the Butler family. Thank you
for sharing your information with the newsgroup.
Regarding the birthdate of Thomas Butler (otherwise Thomas Ormond), 7th
Earl of Ormond, I show that his parents, James and Joan, were married
on or before 28 August 1413. He was their third son.
My research indicates that Thomas was a legatee in the 1435 will of his
maternal grandmother, Joan de Beauchamp, Lady Bergavenny [Reference:
Reg. of Henry Chichele, 2 (Canterbury & York Soc. 42) (1937):
534-539]. Thomas married his first wife, Anne Hankford, before 11
July 1445.
So, Thomas Butler was definitely of age at the time of the Battle of
Towton in 1461.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
butler...@aol.com wrote:
< Good Afternoon Mcjar et Al,
< That is quite true, as I understand it, but not able to prove,
< secondary source only and my notes, that Thomas was a minor at the
< time of the battle of Towton 1461. I think it may have been
possible,
< speculation only, that the Irish parliment may have been more
forgiving
< of a minor at the battle, the English were not. I have read that it
was
< only a few years previous that Edward IV reconciled with John which
to
< me of course seems likely as to why the Irish Restituition Act of
1475
< and more like John probably did die on the way to Rome or after
leaving
< it for the holy land.
< Best Regards as Always,
< Emmett L. Butler
I very much enjoy reading your posts on the Butler family. Thank you
for sharing your information with the newsgroup.
Regarding the birthdate of Thomas Butler (otherwise Thomas Ormond), 7th
Earl of Ormond, I show that his parents, James and Joan, were married
on or before 28 August 1413. He was their third son.
My research indicates that Thomas was a legatee in the 1435 will of his
maternal grandmother, Joan de Beauchamp, Lady Bergavenny [Reference:
Reg. of Henry Chichele, 2 (Canterbury & York Soc. 42) (1937):
534-539]. Thomas married his first wife, Anne Hankford, before 11
July 1445.
So, Thomas Butler was definitely of age at the time of the Battle of
Towton in 1461.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
butler...@aol.com wrote:
< Good Afternoon Mcjar et Al,
< That is quite true, as I understand it, but not able to prove,
< secondary source only and my notes, that Thomas was a minor at the
< time of the battle of Towton 1461. I think it may have been
possible,
< speculation only, that the Irish parliment may have been more
forgiving
< of a minor at the battle, the English were not. I have read that it
was
< only a few years previous that Edward IV reconciled with John which
to
< me of course seems likely as to why the Irish Restituition Act of
1475
< and more like John probably did die on the way to Rome or after
leaving
< it for the holy land.
That is why I am hoping there may be some out there with more documents
or information to toss into the pot.
Regardless, neither Thomas nor Piers were ever recognized as the Earl
of Ormonde in that time frame by the English nor the Irish other than
"Styled" and Piers once again not until 1538.
From what I have been able to ascertain, neither of Thomas Butler's
daughters inherited any of his Irish estates, only those of his English
estates, as one of his grandsons,(Boylens) inherited no less than 36
manors from his mother. A goodly number. But all English estates.
< Best Regards as Always,
< Emmett L. Butler
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: A Strangeness: Death(s) of John Butler, 6th E of Ormonde
Dear Newsgroup ~
In my post a few minutes ago, I referred to Thomas Butler's maternal
grandmother as Joan de Beauchamp. Her correct name was Joan Beauchamp.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
In my post a few minutes ago, I referred to Thomas Butler's maternal
grandmother as Joan de Beauchamp. Her correct name was Joan Beauchamp.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Emmett ~
I very much enjoy reading your posts on the Butler family. Thank you
for sharing your information with the newsgroup.
Regarding the birthdate of Thomas Butler (otherwise Thomas Ormond), 7th
Earl of Ormond, I show that his parents, James and Joan, were married
on or before 28 August 1413. He was their third son.
My research indicates that Thomas was a legatee in the 1435 will of his
maternal grandmother, Joan de Beauchamp, Lady Bergavenny [Reference:
Reg. of Henry Chichele, 2 (Canterbury & York Soc. 42) (1937):
534-539]. Thomas married his first wife, Anne Hankford, before 11
July 1445.
So, Thomas Butler was definitely of age at the time of the Battle of
Towton in 1461.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
butler...@aol.com wrote:
Good Afternoon Mcjar et Al,
That is quite true, as I understand it, but not able to prove,
secondary source only and my notes, that Thomas was a minor at the
time of the battle of Towton 1461. I think it may have been
possible,
speculation only, that the Irish parliment may have been more
forgiving
of a minor at the battle, the English were not. I have read that it
was
only a few years previous that Edward IV reconciled with John which
to
me of course seems likely as to why the Irish Restituition Act of
1475
and more like John probably did die on the way to Rome or after
leaving
it for the holy land.
That is why I am hoping there may be some out there with more documents
or information to toss into the pot.
Regardless, neither Thomas nor Piers were ever recognized as the Earl
of Ormonde in that time frame by the English nor the Irish other than
"Styled" and Piers once again not until 1538.
From what I have been able to ascertain, neither of Thomas Butler's
daughters inherited any of his Irish estates, only those of his English
estates, as one of his grandsons,(Boylens) inherited no less than 36
manors from his mother. A goodly number. But all English estates.
Best Regards as Always,
Emmett L. Butler