Roger [II] de Clifford, Lord of Kingsbury, Sir died..?

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Dogfish

Roger [II] de Clifford, Lord of Kingsbury, Sir died..?

Legg inn av Dogfish » 22 jun 2006 05:20:52

Greetings:

I have found references to Roger [III] de Clifford b. 1243 of Tenbury,
Worcestershire, England being part of the ill-fated group that perished
6 Nov 1282, Battle of Moel y Don, Menai Straits, Isle of Angelsey,
Wales.

I have also found references to his father, Roger [II] de Clifford,
Lord of Kingsbury, Sir b. Abt 1217 of Kingsbury, Tamworth,
Warwickshire, England, as also having died in the same battle.

The internet genealogical databases have this information in varying
degrees. Most are unsourced/undocumented, while others cite Turton
and/or Weis, or even another database. The most humorous make the
deaths sound like an accident while on a father & son fishing outing...
"drowned at Angelsey, Wales". That doesn't quite reflect fleeing for
one's life in the face of a Welsh army and flailing around in armor in
freezing water.

The issue I have is that of the elder Roger having been there at all.
His age per the net sources would be about 65. If he were only 20
years older than his son he would still be 59. I find it unlikely, and
was wondering if anyone had better or alternate information .

I suspect that over time references to Roger "the Younger", Roger "son
of Roger", or even Roger Junior have become skewed. There are actually
three Rogers in series here.

Articles such as this tend to add to the confusion, except that they
mention only one Clifford:

http://www.castlewales.com/lly2_rem.html
The Castles of Wales


The Final Campaign of Prince Llywelyn

[excerpt]
While Lestrange had sorted out what was amiss at Montgomery, Sheriff
Roger Springhose of Salop reported to the king that it was impossible
to collect any revenue from Mortimer's Welsh vassals, as the March had
yet to be pacified. This and other reports of the hostility of the
natives of Mortimer's domain may well have encouraged Prince Llywelyn.
Meanwhile Luke Tany and Roger Clifford Junior had secured the conquest
of Anglesey for the king, yet on 6 November they had disobeyed orders
and crossed to the mainland. Near Bangor their force of 7 bannerets, 40
odd knights and associated horsemen, making as many as 120 lances, and
supported by 300 men-at-arms, was overwhelmed and Clifford, Tany,
William Audley, Peter de la Mare and many of his knights and serjeants
were killed at Moel y Don. Royal records suggest also that there were
as many as 2,000 foot involved in the expedition, though most of these
may have remained in Anglesey. This defeat gave the Welsh new hope and
Llywelyn decided to move south and carry the war into the Middle March
as he had done so often before. At this point the sources begin to
diverge, but with the careful use of royal records and judicious
dissection of the sources a credible account of his last days can be
given.
-----

To add to the confusion possibly, I have found mention that Roger [II]
de Clifford, Lord of Kingsbury, Sir was Justice of Forests, but that
his son substituted in that position while his father crusaded.

I also found mention that the younger died at the battle but his father
was captured and died later, unsourced.

Thanks for your time and attention
-Jim

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