De Lovetot, De Normanville, D'Eyville connections?

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Kelly Leighton

De Lovetot, De Normanville, D'Eyville connections?

Legg inn av Kelly Leighton » 21 jun 2006 19:56:02

Researchers,



I think that there is some good evidence for a connection between the De Lovetot, De Normanville, and D'Eyville families and I'd like some of you who have been researching them far longer than I to weigh in.



Jeff Duvall's "re. Seal of Dionisa, widow of Thomas de Normanville (d. 1282) of Empingham" post of Fri, 19 Aug 2005 and the responses to it got me interested. I believe this group ties in with the Pashley/Sergeaux line, and the Cornwallis line also (although this hasn't been "proven" yet and listers will remember recent posts on the issue).



Thomas De Normanville's wife was Dionisa/Dionysia (Knights of Edward 1st, under Thomas De Normanville). Paul Brand in his ODNB article on Edmund Passele (also sometimes spelled as Pashley) adds that Denise was daughter of John De Lovetot.



As I believe I have posted before, I found a reference ('Folios x - xix', Calendar of letter-books of the city of London: C: 1291-1309 (1901), pp. 15-20. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=33054. Date accessed: 01 January 2006) which certainly connected the De Lovetot and De Normanville names, but it isn't conclusive.



The Knights of Edward 1st entry for John De Lovetot mentions a daughter Denise, but as a husband for John De Wygton. This marriage of Denise De Lovetot appears to have been in negotiation from 1394. John De Lovetot transferred on 10 & 15 July 1294 the lands formerly belonging to Thomas De Normanville as noted here:

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e ... ge0080.pdf This would appear to amplify/confirm the above Folio reference as the footnotes do not cite the CPRs.



Actually a 1397 date seems accepted for Margaret's marriage as it appears Margaret was of age and the final confirmations were made with reagrd to which of Robert De Basinges son she was to marry:

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e ... ge0231.pdf.



So, why would John De Lovetot have the maritagium of Thomas De Normanville's heir? Paul Brand's ODNB article answers that, John De Lovetot was Margaret's grandfather.



Jeff Duvall's postings on Dionysia's seal seems to confirm the D'Eyville linkage. I have already posted (I think) that the "a Lion Rampant" (#2 of Blore's four arms on her seal) fits the De Lovetot arms perfectly. So, I think there is plenty of evidence to support Paul's statement that Denise was daughter of John De Lovetot and married first, Thomas De Normanville, and then William De Basing.



Is this generally accepted? I don't know if Paul Brand is able to provide more proof or if more is even needed. Can someone with more experience on these families add to this?



The Lovetot arms that Blore identified on Denise's shield would work if they descended through Margaret, John de Lovetot's wife. I have not seen nearly enough on the De Lovetot line and have been trying to extend it past John De Lovetot. I have found references to several John De Lovetots, one a son of Oliver, but haven't seen Thoroton's (definitive?) work on the family. Does anyone know of proof of this John De Lovetot's parentage? Knights of Edward 1st is not helpful on this. Who was this John De Lovetot's (died 5 Nov 1294) father? Knights of Edward 1st has a Thomas De Lovetot, son of Roger owning lands on 5 Nov 1294 from an Inquisition. Can anyone confirm that the reason he was responding to an inquisition on the day of John De Lovetot's death probably indicates close relation, say, a brother?



The John De Lovetot as son of Oliver De L. may be a different John De Lovetot. I found a reference on VCH Huntingdonshire to the manor of Southoe with quite a lot on the De Lovetots. Unfortunately, the genealogy, as I make it out, is chronologically impossible. Simply too many generations. For whatever it IS worth though, VCH states John De Lovetot's father was Thomas. So, the source I found originally (A Biographical Dictionary of the Judges of England via googlebooks) may very well have confused a different John De Lovetot son of Oliver. Kts of Edw 1 does have one of those, but it looks as if he died 4 years after our John De L.



Now, if Margaret (John De Lovetot's wife from at least 1274 to about 1280) was a D'Eyville, as the seal of Denise would seem to indicate (although I have not found a shield yet that looks exactly like the one that Blore describes, as John's Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:03:47 re. Seal of Dionisa, widow of Thomas de Normanville (d. 1282) of Empingham SGM post already pointed out. I am strongly inclined to agree with John that Densie has to be the daughter of Robert D'Eyville. The chronology doesn't seem to work any other way. John D'Eyville was contemporary with John De Lovetot.



In Sept. and Oct. '04 there was some D'Eyville discussion on SGM. I'm not finding much of use there bearing on this conversation (or in my copy of CP) as it is mostly on John son of John son of Robert and Denise, but it does show that there is expertise on the family resident on SGM. I don't know where to go for info on Robert and Denise. But it sure makes sense that our Denise would be named after her grandmother. I did find a few references to Robert and Denise in the usual places, but nothing that adds or subtracts support to John's theory that maybe Denise is daughter of Robert D'Eyville.



I have found a couple of different D'Eyville arms, and I think I understand Tim Powys-Lybbe's post a bit more. If his summation of Joseph Foster's work is accurate, it would be nice to have the details of which D'Eyville wore which specific arms. I'm not overly optimistic that such detail exists.



So, the last shield on Denise's seal (#4 in Blore's rendering) still remains. From the description (copied from Jeff's post of Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:18:13 "...-- the second (2), a Lion rampant, I must leave to future discovery -- the third (3), three Mullets of six points, within a Border engrailed, must be left in the same situation -- ..." I had hoped to find something. It turns out that



the third (3), three Mullets of six
points, within a Border engrailed

seems to be very close to that described in Charles' Roll Pt 6 # 296 Sable
three sixtefoils a bordure indented or -Wigton02.gif and St George's Roll
pt 7 E 571 Sable three mullets a bordure indented or - Wigton.gif.

http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/charlesF06.htm

http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/StGeorgesE7.html

I had kinda expected the arms of Denise's husband to be on the shield, but had hoped they might be those of Thomas De Normanville's mother's line.

I can't explain the difference between the two arms, but the fact that they were both assigned to Walter De Wigton, who may very well have been the Walter De Wigton whose son John Denise married after the death of Thomas De Normanville in 1282 seems like anything but coincidence.



Jeff Duvall has added (in an email to me off-line) that << The date for Denise's seal is given by Blore as follows: "Saturday the Eve of St. Margaret, in the 9th of Edward II (which places it sometime in 1316). The seal appeared on a deed, by which Denise acknowledged the receipt of 12 pounds ten shillings, due to her on the feast of St. John Baptist, in the 8th of Edward II, for "lands which she had demised to them [her daughter Margaret and her husband Sir William de Basynges], for her life, at fifty pounds per annum." (Blore, p. 223) >>



I don't have any evidence of anyone but Denise using them on the Seal you quoted from Blore. Neither of her daughters has left me evidence, yet, of their usage of any arms, let alone those of Wigton. Now, why would Denise use them?

I found an article http://homepage.ntlworld.com/carole.joh ... XTINCT.htm which looks to be a OCR'ed portion of pages 73-84 of an article by Rev. James Wilson entitled "Some Extinct Cumberland Families, The Wigtons" published in The Ancestor, 3 (Oct 1902):73-84. Carol's webpage gives the source. A googlebooks search gives the publishing data for the next issue, giving the publisher and full title of the journal series. I note that the 8 for one of the relevant footnotes should really be a 6. That is a common OCR error. I've done a bit of work with this myself on other books with significant portions of my ancestry. I don't know what book it is from, but the sources listed for the data seem valid. If you scroll to almost exactly the middle of the page, there is Wigton and Luvetot data relevant to our discussions. You can just search for Luvetot, as well.


The article mentions a contentious IPM process after Wigton died. If I'm correct in my assertion that it is indeed the Wigton arms displayed there, I suspect it was so that she could bolster her claims to his inheritance, whether for herself or their daughter Margaret, I can't say. The date Blore gave to the seal seems at a time convenient to help her argument, and that might be a motivation for it's creation and usage.

I found an FMG pdf extract from Google (I do not have an FMG account) which looks to confirm some of what is in this article. If anyone has access to that article, I'd love to read it.


And, as I look at the 4 seal shields (I've not combined them into one picture yet but intend to do so) and my proposed tree, her mother's, her father's and both of her husband's shields. Exactly what I would expect from a woman's arms. She was defined by these relationships.

I found a British History Online reference to Walter De Wigton and another giving to a church in 1283 that John De Lovetot had an interest in. It seems likely to me that he (John De Lovetot) was an important man in Queen Eleanor of Castile's retinue, she (Denise) was recently widowed with a brand new baby, and it was in her father's interest (and Wigton's) to arrange a marriage and the 1283 church givings seem to be part of an attempt to make the match. Perhaps a competition for the fair Denise's hand?

John De Lovetot's first (known) wife was named Margaret. My estimation is that John De Lovetot's wife Margaret was born around 1240, and I believe she was the mother of Denise/Dionysia who married De Normanville and John De Wigton. It
is compelling that Denise apparently named a daughter Margaret from her first marriage AND a daughter Margaret from her second marriage. Margaret from the first marriage is the Margaret who married both Basing and Passele men and had children.



That article, if it is reliable, states that the second Margaret had no children. The sources cited appear to be valid, but I have not had the ability or access to check them.

Certainly I think we've made progress with Blore's 3rd Shield. I don't know what the "R" would stand for, perhaps work on the Wigton line will answer this?

Engrailed, in a dictionry of heraldry I have has the same meaning as Indented. http://www.digiserve.com/heraldry/pimb_e.htm also has this.



The http://homepage.ntlworld.com/carole.joh ... XTINCT.htm mentions Dionyse De Luvetot as estranged from her husband Sir John de Wigton soon after their marriage and a password protected reference to a pdf article Five Odards in N England
and Scotland in 12th century from fmg.ac/Users/Journal/02-01/Odards.pdf : "John de Wigton married Dionyse de. Luvetot and soon after his marriage ... Keats-Rohan then added that Adam, ancestor of the Wygeton family was a son of... "

A couple more pieces of proof. The first has sources identified (the 1315 IPM, notedly), the second is from a respected organization, I believe. Recent emails notwithstanding.

So, Between the circimstantial evidence of Thomas De Normanville's lands being given by John De Lovetot in the British History Online Folio XIX page, The Kts of Ed 1 reference to John De Lovetot's daughter's second marriage (with Dionisia's unusual name for daughter and timeframe fitting), the arms fitting perfectly (I suspect the I should be an L), and the reference to it in the ODNB article Paul Brand wrote, it seems clear to me that Denise/Dionisia was the daughter of John De Lovetot (possibly by his wife Margaret, although I don't know this). We also have the tie that Dionesia, widow of Thoms De Normanville in 1320 was in
suit with Margery widow of William Basynges (ODNB article and Nigel Saul mention this Margaret as marrying Sir Edmund Pashley after William De Basing died in 1316).



Okay, that's it, I'm fried.



I compiled this from a series of emails to Jeff which summarized ongoing research, and I have no idea how much is new and how much is re-tread. I accept any errors in the above. I don't know how clear it is.



Looking forward to some feedback which moves this discussion on. Jeff, John, and some others have really done some good work on this.



And I am definitely willing to read whatever anyone is willing to contribute on that blasted hidden Lovetot line!



Take care,



Kelly in RI

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