Children of John Butler, 6th Earl of Ormond

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Brad Verity

Children of John Butler, 6th Earl of Ormond

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 20 jun 2006 04:25:13

An interesting series of books at the FHL Library in Salt Lake City by
T. Blake Butler on the Butler family of Ireland, Earls of Ormond, etc.,
that appear to have been printed privately about 1962, shed some light
on the very confusing branches of the large family, offshooting from
many younger sons and illegitimate sons.

Most of the information below was taken from the ninth Volume of the
series: 'The First To Seventh Earl of Ormond'.

JOHN BUTLER (who also used 'Ormond' as a last name) was born 1423-25,
the second son and third child of James Butler, 4th Earl of Ormond and
Joan Beauchamp, daughter of the formidable widow Joan, Lady
Abergavenny. His elder brother James (future 5th Earl of Ormond), born
in 1420, was raised in the household of the infant king Henry VI, and
John may have been raised at court as well. The Butlers remained
steadfast Lancastrians and loyal to Henry VI throughout the Wars of the
Roses.

As a second son, John followed a military career, and arrangements for
his marriage were perhaps delayed due to his serving in France in the
1440s, and to his being a prisoner there from 1449-51. His father the
4th Earl died in 1452, and John received some manors in Somerset in
1455.

Now in his 30s and still unmarried, the political tensions of the 1450s
greatly affected John and his elder brother the 5th Earl, with both
fighting for Henry VI at the battle of Towton. The 5th Earl was
beheaded some weeks after the battle and John succeeded his childless
elder brother as 6th Earl of Ormond, but was attainted in the November
Parliament that year when all the English lands of the Butlers were
forfeited. Earl John had already gone to Ireland, where he styled
himself Earl of Ormond and lord of Tipperary until the Irish Parliament
attainted him in October 1462, and the Butler Irish lands forfeited.

It was during his stay in Ireland from 1461 until about 1465 (when he
fled to Portugal), that Earl John took up with Reynalda, daughter of
Turlogh "The Brown" O'Brien, King of Thomond, who had died in 1460 the
year before John's arrival. During the early 1460s she bore him at
least two sons, and at some later point bore him a third, before she
was married off to Earl John's kinsman Richard Butler of Glan, co.
Waterford (the younger son of Earl John's first cousin Piers Butler of
Cahir Castle). By her husband, she had further issue.

After the death (murder) of Henry VI, John made peace with Edward IV,
who recognized him as Earl of Ormond in 1474. His attainder was
annulled in 1475, and all the lands in England and Ireland restored.
Earl John left on a pilgrimage in 1476, was in Rome in the spring and
died in the Holy Land on 14 October 1476.

Before his death Earl John had settled on Reynalda an annuity out of
the manor of Killinaule co. Tipperary, and she survived her husband
Richard Butler of Glan, as well as two of her sons by Earl John. After
her husband's death, Reynalda became abbess of Killone, an Augustinian
nunnery founded in 1190 by her ancestor Donal Mor O'Brien, King of
Thomond. She made her will there, and it was proved on 20 May 1510.
She mentions her grants made to her by John late Earl of Ormond and by
her husband, and leaves a bequest to her son (by Richard) Thomas
Butler, clerk. She asked to be buried in the Franciscan friary of
Ennis, also founded by her family, and their chief burial place.

Issue of John Butler, 6th Earl of Ormond and Reynalda O'Brien:

1) Sir JAMES "The Black" ORMOND, born about 1462-65, was a minor when
his father died in 1476, and was placed under the guardianship of his
father's younger brother Thomas who succeeded as 7th Earl of Ormond.
Apparently there was a move to legitimate young James in 1480, but Earl
Thomas was able to protest it, and thus keep the extensive Ormond
inheritance. Young James was placed by his uncle at the English court
where he became an expert in the use of arms. He was groomed for a
legal career and entered as a bencher of Lincoln's Inn 24 June 1486.
After the death of Sir James Butler of Callan in April 1487, James
Ormond was appointed by his uncle Earl Thomas as his attorney and
deputy of the Ormond lands in Ireland, an appointment James was said to
have obtained with a lawyer's dexterity. This led to a fatal feud with
Piers Butler, the son and heir of Sir James Butler of Callan, who
viewed the deputyship of the Ormond lands as his hereditary right, and
grew troubled by the growing power and influence of Sir James "The
Black" Ormond in Ireland.

Married about 1489, Amice Poynings, daughter of Robert Poynings of
Maidstone, Kent and Elizabeth Paston, and sister of Sir Edward Poynings
who was appointed deputy of Ireland in 1494. She seems to have died
without issue before 1492 when Sir James Ormond was betrothed to a
daughter of the Earl of Desmond. The only source for the Desmond
betrothal, however, is a statement made by James's archrival Sir Piers
Butler and there is no record of such a marriage or of the Earl of
Desmond even having such a daughter.

Sir James made a good career for himself in Ireland in the 1490s, and
for his military efforts received a grant of the manors and lands in
counties Meath, Tipperary and Kilkenny in 1491, renewed in 1494. He
was appointed Lord Treasurer of Ireland in 1492. He took a mistress
named Rose Barry, and on 17 July 1497, while travelling between
Kilkenny and Dromore to visit her, he encountered his cousin Sir Piers
Butler in the open fields, and in the fight that ensued he was killed.
Sir Piers wrote to Earl Thomas a few weeks later on 7 September his
version of the event, and stated that Sir James had kept him out of his
lands, imprisoned him for a long time, and had vowed after the Earl of
Desmond had secured Sir Piers's release that he would slay Sir Piers
whenever he met him. Whatever was the actual truth, Sir Piers received
a pardon for all crimes committed by him in Ireland on 28 February
1498. He finally received from Earl Thomas the coveted post of deputy
of the Ormond Irish lands in July 1505, and succeeded him as 8th Earl
of Ormond in 1515.

2) JOHN ORMOND of Alfreton, Derbyshire, second son, born 1462-65. The
Butlers of Ormond held lands in Derbyshire as early as 1406, and John
Ormond apparently was groomed to wield local influence. In 1485 and a
marriage was arranged for him that year with Joan Chaworth, heiress of
Alfreton manor and he had a commission to hold inquests in Derbyshire
and Nottinghamshire 19 February 1487. He was selected to be made a
Knight of the Bath at the marriage of Prince Arthur, but paid a fine to
release himself from that honor in July 1501.

He married, 1485, Joan Chaworth, born about 1463, only daughter of Sir
William Chaworth of Wiverton. On the death of her childless cousin Sir
Thomas Chaworth in 1483, Joan was heiress to the manors of Medbourne
(Leicestershire), Marnham (Nottinghamshire) and Alfreton. Sir Thomas
Chaworth had been married to John Ormond's first cousin Margaret Talbot
(daughter of the 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury and Elizabeth Butler, sister of
the 5th, 6th and 7th Earls of Ormond). It was likely through the
influence of his Talbot relations that John Ormond's marriage to the
Chaworth heiress was secured.

John Ormond died 5 October 1503, and his wife Joan died 29 August 1507.
They are buried in St. Martin church, Alfreton. Issue, three
daughters and co-heiresses:

2A) JOAN ORMOND married 1st, Thomas Dynham (d. 1519), of Eythorpe,
Buckinghamshire, illegitimate son of John, 7th Lord Dinham; married
2nd, William Fitzwilliam (d. at Milton 9 August 1534) of Gains Park,
Essex and Milton, Northamptonshire, son of John Fitzwilliam of Greens
Norton and Ellen Villiers.

2B) ANNE ORMOND married Sir William Mering of Mering, Nottinghamshire,
and died without issue.

2C) ELIZABETH ORMOND married 1498, Sir Anthony Babington (b. by 1476,
died at Kingston-on-Soar, Nottinghamshire 23 August 1536) of Dethick,
Derbyshire, son and heir of Thomas Babington of Dethick and Edith
Fitzherbert, and died November 1505, leaving issue, two sons.

3) EDWARD ORMOND, born after 1465?, youngest son. He accompanied his
brother Sir James "The Black" Ormond to Ireland in December 1491 and
appears to have joined Perkin Warbeck's rebellion in 1492, for he was
in Edinburgh in the spring of that year in connection with it. He
apparently switched sides, received a general pardon in May 1493, and
joined his brother Sir James in the affray at Oxmanton Green in Dublin
on 19 July 1493 against the 8th Earl of Kildare who strongly supported
Warbeck, continuing to aid his brother in his campaign against the
Geraldines thru 1495. He last appears in record as a defendant in a
July 1511 suit concerning the manors of Ashley and Weston (in
Northamptonshire) brought by Thomas Babington of Dethick (father of the
husband of his late niece Elizabeth Ormond). Whether he married and/or
left issue is not known.

Cheers, ---------Brad

Gjest

Re: Children of John Butler, 6th Earl of Ormond:Thoughts

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 jun 2006 16:41:44

Good Morning Brad:
I was unaware of the books you had written about by T. Blake Butler,
but there had always been an oral tradition in my family handed down
from father to son as far back as I have been able to ascertain that
the legend went: We were from the House of Ormonde, that we lost our
lands and titles during the War of the Roses and some of our family
were/was? be-headed because we chose the wrong side. The vision of
someone being beheaded made a marked impression on me as a small child,
horrifying then!!
The crest of John is still passed down thru the generations as it will
to one of my two sons before I die. Whether or not this is valid I know
not!!!!!!!!!! We descend from Deacon Richard Butler of Hartford who
came from the Braintree area, Essex allegedly, although there is a
hundred of Braintree in Shropshire that was also a heavy Butler area.

According to a Distant cousin(Very, but same line) who had paid a
geneaologist in Great Britian and said that Richards father was a
Stephen and his father a John but nothing before that and no proof that
I have seen. Further this Geneaologist said that our line came to the
Essex area in the early 15th century from Ireland so there is some
coincidental (as it may be) validaition(general) which would be during
the time of the War of the Roses. Lord Dunboyne(deceased) and I
disagree, as he says "there is no connection with this family To any
family of Ireland, including the Lanesbourough Butlers", boy was he
wrong, but I have seen his data, while a nice starting point, is
filled with many inconsistancies and errors. To Many to point out!! In
fact until Piers the 8th Earl, nearly all Ormonde Butlers were born in
England, including other families of nobility in Ireland except
indigenous Irish nobility, as a law had been passed, if I remember
right-can't put my hands on it off the top of the hat, to keep the two
differring nobles lines from inter-marrying. Ormonde Butlers were
Norman-Saxon

Thomas the 7th Earl was also known as the woolen earl and Essex was a
heavy linen/textile county, Thomas also had the manor of Beaulieu at
Borham, Essex, given him by Henry VII, not far from Braintree also
known as Walkfares. he and his older brothers also held the manor at
what is known I believe as Foul island, a rather barren place in Essex,
so any family could well have stayed there and it would make sense as
far as family tradition was concerned.

I had known of what you had wrtten thru other sources but it is nice to
see others have found similiar things, the Butlers married lots, had
lots of wives and mistresses and lots of children, legitimate and not,
the Calander or Ormonde Deeds mentions many of these but it is a hard
and dry read thru the volumes. There is much there that can be gleaned
that typical folks doing family studies are not aware of than what you
read at on-line sites. All the Butlers, except those that just took the
name, are related, maternally, thru inter-marriage and direct descent.

Technically what is not well known, is that even tho Piers the 8th was
recognized as the legitimate heir churchwise, his parents had been
betrothed in the old tradition, after he had the title firmly secured,
he got a papal dispensation legitimizing his two older brothers and
technically their descendants could indeed make claim to the earldom of
Ormonde, if there are any left, the same as Thomas the 7th did with
James his nephew. By the way James his nephew and his mother the grand
daughter of the king of Thomond, helped him regain his fathers lands in
Ireland and he was recognized by the nobles either thru Irish tradition
or subjugation as the Earl of Ormonde, he was not recognized due to
political reasons as I believe not only being then the head of the
powerful Butler clan in Ireland and discontent English nobles but a
unifier as a descendant of an Irish King and the Butlers to a degree
thru James 1st E. of Ormonde, James- son of John the 6th, was the
gggggrandson of King Edward the I of England, James I married K.
Edwards I grandaughter, and indirectly thru his grandfather James the
4th E of Ormonde thru his marriage to the Beauchamps thru the
Plantagenets. It was a time when there were many claimants to the
throne-some better than others, and he was as close as some and further
than others but could well have been a force to reckon with, either way
He was a dangerous person to have alive including any other family
member that could not be controlled, why I believe some took the name
Ormond and Butter both aka Butler.
It is also believed that his older brother james the 5th E. of Ormonde
had at least 1 son
Anyway some little history and thoughts.
Best Regards as Always,
Emmett L. Butler

Brad Verity wrote:
An interesting series of books at the FHL Library in Salt Lake City by
T. Blake Butler on the Butler family of Ireland, Earls of Ormond, etc.,
that appear to have been printed privately about 1962, shed some light
on the very confusing branches of the large family, offshooting from
many younger sons and illegitimate sons.

Most of the information below was taken from the ninth Volume of the
series: 'The First To Seventh Earl of Ormond'.

JOHN BUTLER (who also used 'Ormond' as a last name) was born 1423-25,
the second son and third child of James Butler, 4th Earl of Ormond and
Joan Beauchamp, daughter of the formidable widow Joan, Lady
Abergavenny. His elder brother James (future 5th Earl of Ormond), born
in 1420, was raised in the household of the infant king Henry VI, and
John may have been raised at court as well. The Butlers remained
steadfast Lancastrians and loyal to Henry VI throughout the Wars of the
Roses.

As a second son, John followed a military career, and arrangements for
his marriage were perhaps delayed due to his serving in France in the
1440s, and to his being a prisoner there from 1449-51. His father the
4th Earl died in 1452, and John received some manors in Somerset in
1455.

Now in his 30s and still unmarried, the political tensions of the 1450s
greatly affected John and his elder brother the 5th Earl, with both
fighting for Henry VI at the battle of Towton. The 5th Earl was
beheaded some weeks after the battle and John succeeded his childless
elder brother as 6th Earl of Ormond, but was attainted in the November
Parliament that year when all the English lands of the Butlers were
forfeited. Earl John had already gone to Ireland, where he styled
himself Earl of Ormond and lord of Tipperary until the Irish Parliament
attainted him in October 1462, and the Butler Irish lands forfeited.

It was during his stay in Ireland from 1461 until about 1465 (when he
fled to Portugal), that Earl John took up with Reynalda, daughter of
Turlogh "The Brown" O'Brien, King of Thomond, who had died in 1460 the
year before John's arrival. During the early 1460s she bore him at
least two sons, and at some later point bore him a third, before she
was married off to Earl John's kinsman Richard Butler of Glan, co.
Waterford (the younger son of Earl John's first cousin Piers Butler of
Cahir Castle). By her husband, she had further issue.

After the death (murder) of Henry VI, John made peace with Edward IV,
who recognized him as Earl of Ormond in 1474. His attainder was
annulled in 1475, and all the lands in England and Ireland restored.
Earl John left on a pilgrimage in 1476, was in Rome in the spring and
died in the Holy Land on 14 October 1476.

Before his death Earl John had settled on Reynalda an annuity out of
the manor of Killinaule co. Tipperary, and she survived her husband
Richard Butler of Glan, as well as two of her sons by Earl John. After
her husband's death, Reynalda became abbess of Killone, an Augustinian
nunnery founded in 1190 by her ancestor Donal Mor O'Brien, King of
Thomond. She made her will there, and it was proved on 20 May 1510.
She mentions her grants made to her by John late Earl of Ormond and by
her husband, and leaves a bequest to her son (by Richard) Thomas
Butler, clerk. She asked to be buried in the Franciscan friary of
Ennis, also founded by her family, and their chief burial place.

Issue of John Butler, 6th Earl of Ormond and Reynalda O'Brien:

1) Sir JAMES "The Black" ORMOND, born about 1462-65, was a minor when
his father died in 1476, and was placed under the guardianship of his
father's younger brother Thomas who succeeded as 7th Earl of Ormond.
Apparently there was a move to legitimate young James in 1480, but Earl
Thomas was able to protest it, and thus keep the extensive Ormond
inheritance. Young James was placed by his uncle at the English court
where he became an expert in the use of arms. He was groomed for a
legal career and entered as a bencher of Lincoln's Inn 24 June 1486.
After the death of Sir James Butler of Callan in April 1487, James
Ormond was appointed by his uncle Earl Thomas as his attorney and
deputy of the Ormond lands in Ireland, an appointment James was said to
have obtained with a lawyer's dexterity. This led to a fatal feud with
Piers Butler, the son and heir of Sir James Butler of Callan, who
viewed the deputyship of the Ormond lands as his hereditary right, and
grew troubled by the growing power and influence of Sir James "The
Black" Ormond in Ireland.

Married about 1489, Amice Poynings, daughter of Robert Poynings of
Maidstone, Kent and Elizabeth Paston, and sister of Sir Edward Poynings
who was appointed deputy of Ireland in 1494. She seems to have died
without issue before 1492 when Sir James Ormond was betrothed to a
daughter of the Earl of Desmond. The only source for the Desmond
betrothal, however, is a statement made by James's archrival Sir Piers
Butler and there is no record of such a marriage or of the Earl of
Desmond even having such a daughter.

Sir James made a good career for himself in Ireland in the 1490s, and
for his military efforts received a grant of the manors and lands in
counties Meath, Tipperary and Kilkenny in 1491, renewed in 1494. He
was appointed Lord Treasurer of Ireland in 1492. He took a mistress
named Rose Barry, and on 17 July 1497, while travelling between
Kilkenny and Dromore to visit her, he encountered his cousin Sir Piers
Butler in the open fields, and in the fight that ensued he was killed.
Sir Piers wrote to Earl Thomas a few weeks later on 7 September his
version of the event, and stated that Sir James had kept him out of his
lands, imprisoned him for a long time, and had vowed after the Earl of
Desmond had secured Sir Piers's release that he would slay Sir Piers
whenever he met him. Whatever was the actual truth, Sir Piers received
a pardon for all crimes committed by him in Ireland on 28 February
1498. He finally received from Earl Thomas the coveted post of deputy
of the Ormond Irish lands in July 1505, and succeeded him as 8th Earl
of Ormond in 1515.

2) JOHN ORMOND of Alfreton, Derbyshire, second son, born 1462-65. The
Butlers of Ormond held lands in Derbyshire as early as 1406, and John
Ormond apparently was groomed to wield local influence. In 1485 and a
marriage was arranged for him that year with Joan Chaworth, heiress of
Alfreton manor and he had a commission to hold inquests in Derbyshire
and Nottinghamshire 19 February 1487. He was selected to be made a
Knight of the Bath at the marriage of Prince Arthur, but paid a fine to
release himself from that honor in July 1501.

He married, 1485, Joan Chaworth, born about 1463, only daughter of Sir
William Chaworth of Wiverton. On the death of her childless cousin Sir
Thomas Chaworth in 1483, Joan was heiress to the manors of Medbourne
(Leicestershire), Marnham (Nottinghamshire) and Alfreton. Sir Thomas
Chaworth had been married to John Ormond's first cousin Margaret Talbot
(daughter of the 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury and Elizabeth Butler, sister of
the 5th, 6th and 7th Earls of Ormond). It was likely through the
influence of his Talbot relations that John Ormond's marriage to the
Chaworth heiress was secured.

John Ormond died 5 October 1503, and his wife Joan died 29 August 1507.
They are buried in St. Martin church, Alfreton. Issue, three
daughters and co-heiresses:

2A) JOAN ORMOND married 1st, Thomas Dynham (d. 1519), of Eythorpe,
Buckinghamshire, illegitimate son of John, 7th Lord Dinham; married
2nd, William Fitzwilliam (d. at Milton 9 August 1534) of Gains Park,
Essex and Milton, Northamptonshire, son of John Fitzwilliam of Greens
Norton and Ellen Villiers.

2B) ANNE ORMOND married Sir William Mering of Mering, Nottinghamshire,
and died without issue.

2C) ELIZABETH ORMOND married 1498, Sir Anthony Babington (b. by 1476,
died at Kingston-on-Soar, Nottinghamshire 23 August 1536) of Dethick,
Derbyshire, son and heir of Thomas Babington of Dethick and Edith
Fitzherbert, and died November 1505, leaving issue, two sons.

3) EDWARD ORMOND, born after 1465?, youngest son. He accompanied his
brother Sir James "The Black" Ormond to Ireland in December 1491 and
appears to have joined Perkin Warbeck's rebellion in 1492, for he was
in Edinburgh in the spring of that year in connection with it. He
apparently switched sides, received a general pardon in May 1493, and
joined his brother Sir James in the affray at Oxmanton Green in Dublin
on 19 July 1493 against the 8th Earl of Kildare who strongly supported
Warbeck, continuing to aid his brother in his campaign against the
Geraldines thru 1495. He last appears in record as a defendant in a
July 1511 suit concerning the manors of Ashley and Weston (in
Northamptonshire) brought by Thomas Babington of Dethick (father of the
husband of his late niece Elizabeth Ormond). Whether he married and/or
left issue is not known.

Cheers, ---------Brad

Gjest

Re: Children of John Butler, 6th Earl of Ormond:Thoughts

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 jun 2006 21:22:02

Good Afternoon All,
For those who are interested, and while it appears there were some
behind the scenes planning, when:

In 1515, Thomas Butler, 7th Earl of Ormonde, died he was seized of the
lands of Rush, Turvey, Balscadden and part of Lusk, these were given to
William fitzWilliam who interestingly enough was the 2nd husband of
Joan Ormond(Butler) daughter of John Ormond of Allfreton and Joan
Chatworth. What is interesting is that Joan Ormonde was married 1st to
Thomas Dynham who did not die until a few years after the death of
Thomas Butler. On the surface this would almost make it seem as if this
marriage and dowry were planned in advance. It also would appear that
Thomas butler was quite accomodating to his great neice. But then again
William FitzWilliam was descended on his mothers side from Henry I
Beauclerc and Maud"the Empress" Queen of England from Hamelin
Plantegent, their 5th son, but then the Ormonds were too.
Best Regards as Always,
Emmett L. Butler





butlergrt@aol.com wrote:
Good Morning Brad:
I was unaware of the books you had written about by T. Blake Butler,
but there had always been an oral tradition in my family handed down
from father to son as far back as I have been able to ascertain that
the legend went: We were from the House of Ormonde, that we lost our
lands and titles during the War of the Roses and some of our family
were/was? be-headed because we chose the wrong side. The vision of
someone being beheaded made a marked impression on me as a small child,
horrifying then!!
The crest of John is still passed down thru the generations as it will
to one of my two sons before I die. Whether or not this is valid I know
not!!!!!!!!!! We descend from Deacon Richard Butler of Hartford who
came from the Braintree area, Essex allegedly, although there is a
hundred of Braintree in Shropshire that was also a heavy Butler area.

According to a Distant cousin(Very, but same line) who had paid a
geneaologist in Great Britian and said that Richards father was a
Stephen and his father a John but nothing before that and no proof that
I have seen. Further this Geneaologist said that our line came to the
Essex area in the early 15th century from Ireland so there is some
coincidental (as it may be) validaition(general) which would be during
the time of the War of the Roses. Lord Dunboyne(deceased) and I
disagree, as he says "there is no connection with this family To any
family of Ireland, including the Lanesbourough Butlers", boy was he
wrong, but I have seen his data, while a nice starting point, is
filled with many inconsistancies and errors. To Many to point out!! In
fact until Piers the 8th Earl, nearly all Ormonde Butlers were born in
England, including other families of nobility in Ireland except
indigenous Irish nobility, as a law had been passed, if I remember
right-can't put my hands on it off the top of the hat, to keep the two
differring nobles lines from inter-marrying. Ormonde Butlers were
Norman-Saxon

Thomas the 7th Earl was also known as the woolen earl and Essex was a
heavy linen/textile county, Thomas also had the manor of Beaulieu at
Borham, Essex, given him by Henry VII, not far from Braintree also
known as Walkfares. he and his older brothers also held the manor at
what is known I believe as Foul island, a rather barren place in Essex,
so any family could well have stayed there and it would make sense as
far as family tradition was concerned.

I had known of what you had wrtten thru other sources but it is nice to
see others have found similiar things, the Butlers married lots, had
lots of wives and mistresses and lots of children, legitimate and not,
the Calander or Ormonde Deeds mentions many of these but it is a hard
and dry read thru the volumes. There is much there that can be gleaned
that typical folks doing family studies are not aware of than what you
read at on-line sites. All the Butlers, except those that just took the
name, are related, maternally, thru inter-marriage and direct descent.

Technically what is not well known, is that even tho Piers the 8th was
recognized as the legitimate heir churchwise, his parents had been
betrothed in the old tradition, after he had the title firmly secured,
he got a papal dispensation legitimizing his two older brothers and
technically their descendants could indeed make claim to the earldom of
Ormonde, if there are any left, the same as Thomas the 7th did with
James his nephew. By the way James his nephew and his mother the grand
daughter of the king of Thomond, helped him regain his fathers lands in
Ireland and he was recognized by the nobles either thru Irish tradition
or subjugation as the Earl of Ormonde, he was not recognized due to
political reasons as I believe not only being then the head of the
powerful Butler clan in Ireland and discontent English nobles but a
unifier as a descendant of an Irish King and the Butlers to a degree
thru James 1st E. of Ormonde, James- son of John the 6th, was the
gggggrandson of King Edward the I of England, James I married K.
Edwards I grandaughter, and indirectly thru his grandfather James the
4th E of Ormonde thru his marriage to the Beauchamps thru the
Plantagenets. It was a time when there were many claimants to the
throne-some better than others, and he was as close as some and further
than others but could well have been a force to reckon with, either way
He was a dangerous person to have alive including any other family
member that could not be controlled, why I believe some took the name
Ormond and Butter both aka Butler.
It is also believed that his older brother james the 5th E. of Ormonde
had at least 1 son
Anyway some little history and thoughts.
Best Regards as Always,
Emmett L. Butler

Brad Verity wrote:
An interesting series of books at the FHL Library in Salt Lake City by
T. Blake Butler on the Butler family of Ireland, Earls of Ormond, etc.,
that appear to have been printed privately about 1962, shed some light
on the very confusing branches of the large family, offshooting from
many younger sons and illegitimate sons.

Most of the information below was taken from the ninth Volume of the
series: 'The First To Seventh Earl of Ormond'.

JOHN BUTLER (who also used 'Ormond' as a last name) was born 1423-25,
the second son and third child of James Butler, 4th Earl of Ormond and
Joan Beauchamp, daughter of the formidable widow Joan, Lady
Abergavenny. His elder brother James (future 5th Earl of Ormond), born
in 1420, was raised in the household of the infant king Henry VI, and
John may have been raised at court as well. The Butlers remained
steadfast Lancastrians and loyal to Henry VI throughout the Wars of the
Roses.

As a second son, John followed a military career, and arrangements for
his marriage were perhaps delayed due to his serving in France in the
1440s, and to his being a prisoner there from 1449-51. His father the
4th Earl died in 1452, and John received some manors in Somerset in
1455.

Now in his 30s and still unmarried, the political tensions of the 1450s
greatly affected John and his elder brother the 5th Earl, with both
fighting for Henry VI at the battle of Towton. The 5th Earl was
beheaded some weeks after the battle and John succeeded his childless
elder brother as 6th Earl of Ormond, but was attainted in the November
Parliament that year when all the English lands of the Butlers were
forfeited. Earl John had already gone to Ireland, where he styled
himself Earl of Ormond and lord of Tipperary until the Irish Parliament
attainted him in October 1462, and the Butler Irish lands forfeited.

It was during his stay in Ireland from 1461 until about 1465 (when he
fled to Portugal), that Earl John took up with Reynalda, daughter of
Turlogh "The Brown" O'Brien, King of Thomond, who had died in 1460 the
year before John's arrival. During the early 1460s she bore him at
least two sons, and at some later point bore him a third, before she
was married off to Earl John's kinsman Richard Butler of Glan, co.
Waterford (the younger son of Earl John's first cousin Piers Butler of
Cahir Castle). By her husband, she had further issue.

After the death (murder) of Henry VI, John made peace with Edward IV,
who recognized him as Earl of Ormond in 1474. His attainder was
annulled in 1475, and all the lands in England and Ireland restored.
Earl John left on a pilgrimage in 1476, was in Rome in the spring and
died in the Holy Land on 14 October 1476.

Before his death Earl John had settled on Reynalda an annuity out of
the manor of Killinaule co. Tipperary, and she survived her husband
Richard Butler of Glan, as well as two of her sons by Earl John. After
her husband's death, Reynalda became abbess of Killone, an Augustinian
nunnery founded in 1190 by her ancestor Donal Mor O'Brien, King of
Thomond. She made her will there, and it was proved on 20 May 1510.
She mentions her grants made to her by John late Earl of Ormond and by
her husband, and leaves a bequest to her son (by Richard) Thomas
Butler, clerk. She asked to be buried in the Franciscan friary of
Ennis, also founded by her family, and their chief burial place.

Issue of John Butler, 6th Earl of Ormond and Reynalda O'Brien:

1) Sir JAMES "The Black" ORMOND, born about 1462-65, was a minor when
his father died in 1476, and was placed under the guardianship of his
father's younger brother Thomas who succeeded as 7th Earl of Ormond.
Apparently there was a move to legitimate young James in 1480, but Earl
Thomas was able to protest it, and thus keep the extensive Ormond
inheritance. Young James was placed by his uncle at the English court
where he became an expert in the use of arms. He was groomed for a
legal career and entered as a bencher of Lincoln's Inn 24 June 1486.
After the death of Sir James Butler of Callan in April 1487, James
Ormond was appointed by his uncle Earl Thomas as his attorney and
deputy of the Ormond lands in Ireland, an appointment James was said to
have obtained with a lawyer's dexterity. This led to a fatal feud with
Piers Butler, the son and heir of Sir James Butler of Callan, who
viewed the deputyship of the Ormond lands as his hereditary right, and
grew troubled by the growing power and influence of Sir James "The
Black" Ormond in Ireland.

Married about 1489, Amice Poynings, daughter of Robert Poynings of
Maidstone, Kent and Elizabeth Paston, and sister of Sir Edward Poynings
who was appointed deputy of Ireland in 1494. She seems to have died
without issue before 1492 when Sir James Ormond was betrothed to a
daughter of the Earl of Desmond. The only source for the Desmond
betrothal, however, is a statement made by James's archrival Sir Piers
Butler and there is no record of such a marriage or of the Earl of
Desmond even having such a daughter.

Sir James made a good career for himself in Ireland in the 1490s, and
for his military efforts received a grant of the manors and lands in
counties Meath, Tipperary and Kilkenny in 1491, renewed in 1494. He
was appointed Lord Treasurer of Ireland in 1492. He took a mistress
named Rose Barry, and on 17 July 1497, while travelling between
Kilkenny and Dromore to visit her, he encountered his cousin Sir Piers
Butler in the open fields, and in the fight that ensued he was killed.
Sir Piers wrote to Earl Thomas a few weeks later on 7 September his
version of the event, and stated that Sir James had kept him out of his
lands, imprisoned him for a long time, and had vowed after the Earl of
Desmond had secured Sir Piers's release that he would slay Sir Piers
whenever he met him. Whatever was the actual truth, Sir Piers received
a pardon for all crimes committed by him in Ireland on 28 February
1498. He finally received from Earl Thomas the coveted post of deputy
of the Ormond Irish lands in July 1505, and succeeded him as 8th Earl
of Ormond in 1515.

2) JOHN ORMOND of Alfreton, Derbyshire, second son, born 1462-65. The
Butlers of Ormond held lands in Derbyshire as early as 1406, and John
Ormond apparently was groomed to wield local influence. In 1485 and a
marriage was arranged for him that year with Joan Chaworth, heiress of
Alfreton manor and he had a commission to hold inquests in Derbyshire
and Nottinghamshire 19 February 1487. He was selected to be made a
Knight of the Bath at the marriage of Prince Arthur, but paid a fine to
release himself from that honor in July 1501.

He married, 1485, Joan Chaworth, born about 1463, only daughter of Sir
William Chaworth of Wiverton. On the death of her childless cousin Sir
Thomas Chaworth in 1483, Joan was heiress to the manors of Medbourne
(Leicestershire), Marnham (Nottinghamshire) and Alfreton. Sir Thomas
Chaworth had been married to John Ormond's first cousin Margaret Talbot
(daughter of the 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury and Elizabeth Butler, sister of
the 5th, 6th and 7th Earls of Ormond). It was likely through the
influence of his Talbot relations that John Ormond's marriage to the
Chaworth heiress was secured.

John Ormond died 5 October 1503, and his wife Joan died 29 August 1507.
They are buried in St. Martin church, Alfreton. Issue, three
daughters and co-heiresses:

2A) JOAN ORMOND married 1st, Thomas Dynham (d. 1519), of Eythorpe,
Buckinghamshire, illegitimate son of John, 7th Lord Dinham; married
2nd, William Fitzwilliam (d. at Milton 9 August 1534) of Gains Park,
Essex and Milton, Northamptonshire, son of John Fitzwilliam of Greens
Norton and Ellen Villiers.

2B) ANNE ORMOND married Sir William Mering of Mering, Nottinghamshire,
and died without issue.

2C) ELIZABETH ORMOND married 1498, Sir Anthony Babington (b. by 1476,
died at Kingston-on-Soar, Nottinghamshire 23 August 1536) of Dethick,
Derbyshire, son and heir of Thomas Babington of Dethick and Edith
Fitzherbert, and died November 1505, leaving issue, two sons.

3) EDWARD ORMOND, born after 1465?, youngest son. He accompanied his
brother Sir James "The Black" Ormond to Ireland in December 1491 and
appears to have joined Perkin Warbeck's rebellion in 1492, for he was
in Edinburgh in the spring of that year in connection with it. He
apparently switched sides, received a general pardon in May 1493, and
joined his brother Sir James in the affray at Oxmanton Green in Dublin
on 19 July 1493 against the 8th Earl of Kildare who strongly supported
Warbeck, continuing to aid his brother in his campaign against the
Geraldines thru 1495. He last appears in record as a defendant in a
July 1511 suit concerning the manors of Ashley and Weston (in
Northamptonshire) brought by Thomas Babington of Dethick (father of the
husband of his late niece Elizabeth Ormond). Whether he married and/or
left issue is not known.

Cheers, ---------Brad

Brad Verity

Re: Children of John Butler, 6th Earl of Ormond:Thoughts

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 21 jun 2006 17:41:13

Dear Emmet,

Many thanks for all of your detailed further observations - they add to
the big picture of the medieval Butlers and are very helpful.

Cheers,

---Brad

Gjest

Re: Children of John Butler, 6th Earl of Ormond:Thoughts

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 jun 2006 02:07:51

Good Evening All,
I had written a rather lengthy article this morning but it seemed to
disappear into nether-land so I will try to give a condensed version.
I see that it has already been seen that some have discovered that the
FitzWilliams did not purchase the manor at Milton Marham until 1502 so
all sources of pedigrees before that would need to be corrected if they
list as I have seen that they were from Milton prior to 1502. he paid
1200 marks for it. Northamptonshire County Council Records and Estate
papers.
Sir William FitzWilliam's family was well established at
Sprat/Sprotborough in the south of York when he entered the City of
London and made his fortune as a merchant and wool stapler (whatever
that may be). He was later made 1st Baronet was courtier-treasurer and
High Chamberlain to Cardinal Wolsely who made him a member of HenryVIII
council. Uk Archives

Starting with this Sir William FitzWilliam Knt, Baronet
mar. 1st
Anne Hawes
Son #1 Sir William FitzWilliam b.c. ?- d.1576
mar.
wife ?
son: Sir William FitzWilliam b. 1526 - d. 1599 Lord Deputy of Ireland
occasional Lord Justice of Ireland between 1560-1594
mar.
Anne (Agnes) Sidney
son:
Sir William FitzWilliam b. ?- d. 1618
mar,
wife?
son:Sir William FitzWilliam 1st Baron FitzWilliam thru to Earls
FitzWilliam
Mar. 2nd from above beginning
Mildred Sackville b. ?- d. 1534
dau.
Mary FitzWilliam
mar.
John Shelly

NOTE: The FitzWilliams, Earls FitzWilliams of England allegedly have no
connection to the Viscount FitzWilliams of Ireland and yet it is as you
will remember in an earlier post that Thomas Butler on his death (1515)
gave Rush, Turvey, Balscadden and part of land in Lusk to William
FitzWilliam on his death who later married his greatniece Joan Ormond.
These manors are in County Dublin which are the holdings of the
Viscounts FitzWlliams and there are not as I am aware of any recording
of them receiving this from the 7th E of Ormonde.

Perhaps there are others who can offer better answers to this than I.
The other part of the earlier post I will offer as a seperate Post.

Best as Always,
Emmett L. Butler
Brad Verity wrote:
Dear Emmet,

Many thanks for all of your detailed further observations - they add to
the big picture of the medieval Butlers and are very helpful.

Cheers,

---Brad

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»