Will the real wife of John De GREY please stand up?

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mep33

Will the real wife of John De GREY please stand up?

Legg inn av mep33 » 19 jun 2006 22:45:34

Have read recently that the wife of John De GREY is now considered to
be Maud de Verdun.

According to the article below, John de GREY in 1311/12 settled on
himself for life the manors of Hemimgford Turberville & Yelling with
remainder to his younger son Roger in tail with contingent remainder
to John son of Ralph BASSET of Drayton & Ralph brother of the said
John.[ fn.25 Cal. Close, 1323-7 pp. 76/77.]

Originally, John de GREY had 2 wives, []1 Anne FERRERS, & [2] Maud
BASSET, daughter of Ralph BASSET of Drayton.

Why would John DE GREY leave the contingent remainder to John & Ralph
BASSET if he were married to Maud de VERDUN?

Could someone please help me with this. Am I confusing something here?


The tenant under Aubrey de Vere in 1086 was Ralf son of Osmund, who was
also tenant in chief of another hide in Hemingford Abbots (q.v.) which
is entered as waste. (fn. 12) Ralf son of Osmund was succeeded by his
son Payn de Hemingford (fn. 13) who endowed the Priory of St. Melan at
Hatfield Broadoak (co. Essex) with tithes from Hemingford and Yelling
and was owing the service of a knight in 1166. (fn. 14) He died
probably shortly after this date, when Nichola, daughter of his son
William, was granted in marriage by Henry II (d. 1189) to William
Ruffus, the King's servant. (fn. 15) William Ruffus and Nichola had
three daughters, namely, Emma, who married Bartholomew de Legh, Alice
who married Ralph de Turberville (fn. 16) (d. before 1238) and Isabel
who married Berengar le Moyne. There were several settlements as to
Hemingford and Yelling among the co-heirs, (fn. 17) but Ralph de
Turberville and Alice, from whom the manor took the name of Hemingford
Turberville, held it for a time. By 1242-3, however, Emma de Legh
held in Hemingford and Yelling three fees which probably represented
the whole property. (fn. 18) Her daughter and heir Nichola de Legh had
married Roger de Cauz, (fn. 19) and their daughter Emma (fn. 20)
married firstly John de Segrave, who died about 1230, when her marriage
was granted to her father-in-law Stephen de Segrave. (fn. 21) She
married secondly John de Grey, and was probably dead before 1256, when
the manor was settled with other lands on her second husband and their
son Reginald. (fn. 22) John de Grey died in 1266 and was succeeded by
Reginald his son, who was summoned to Parliament as Lord Grey [of
Wilton]. In 1286 he proved his descent from Ralf son of Osmund and
maintained his claim to view of frankpledge in the manor. (fn. 23) He
died in 1308 and was succeeded by his son John, (fn. 24) who in
1311-12 settled the manors of Hemingford Turberville and Yelling on
himself for life with remainder to his younger son Roger in tail with
contingent remainder to John son of Ralph Basset of Drayton and Ralph
brother of the said John. (fn. 25) He died in 1323, his son Henry being
his heir, but Hemingford and other lands passed under the settlement of
1311-12 to his younger son Roger, (fn. 26) who in 1351 became Lord
Grey of Ruthin. Roger, died seised of the manor of Hemingford Grey in
1353 and was succeeded by his eldest surviving son Sir Reginald de Grey
(fn. 27) (d. 1388), who settled the manor on his wife Eleanor (d.
1396). His son Reginald, as heir general of John de Hastings last Earl
of Pembroke through his grandmother Elizabeth daughter of Sir John de
Hastings, Lord of Abergavenny, (fn. 28) styled himself Lord Hastings.
He died in 1440 and was succeeded by his grandson Edmund, son of John
de Grey, who in 1465 was created Earl of Kent and died in 1490

From: 'Parishes: Hemingford Grey', A History of the County of
Huntingdonshire: Volume 2 (1932), pp. 309-14. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=42505. Date
accessed: 19 June 2006.

Gjest

Re: Will the real wife of John De GREY please stand up?

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 jun 2006 23:51:21

Because his daughter Joan married Ralph Basset, 2nd Lord Basset of
Drayton. See Doug Richardson's PA3, p. 764. Evidently in 1285 Maud
de Verdun was an heiress to her brother Humphrey de Verdun, clerk.

Martin

mep33 wrote:
Have read recently that the wife of John De GREY is now considered to
be Maud de Verdun.

According to the article below, John de GREY in 1311/12 settled on
himself for life the manors of Hemimgford Turberville & Yelling with
remainder to his younger son Roger in tail with contingent remainder
to John son of Ralph BASSET of Drayton & Ralph brother of the said
John.[ fn.25 Cal. Close, 1323-7 pp. 76/77.]

Originally, John de GREY had 2 wives, []1 Anne FERRERS, & [2] Maud
BASSET, daughter of Ralph BASSET of Drayton.

Why would John DE GREY leave the contingent remainder to John & Ralph
BASSET if he were married to Maud de VERDUN?

Could someone please help me with this. Am I confusing something here?


The tenant under Aubrey de Vere in 1086 was Ralf son of Osmund, who was
also tenant in chief of another hide in Hemingford Abbots (q.v.) which
is entered as waste. (fn. 12) Ralf son of Osmund was succeeded by his
son Payn de Hemingford (fn. 13) who endowed the Priory of St. Melan at
Hatfield Broadoak (co. Essex) with tithes from Hemingford and Yelling
and was owing the service of a knight in 1166. (fn. 14) He died
probably shortly after this date, when Nichola, daughter of his son
William, was granted in marriage by Henry II (d. 1189) to William
Ruffus, the King's servant. (fn. 15) William Ruffus and Nichola had
three daughters, namely, Emma, who married Bartholomew de Legh, Alice
who married Ralph de Turberville (fn. 16) (d. before 1238) and Isabel
who married Berengar le Moyne. There were several settlements as to
Hemingford and Yelling among the co-heirs, (fn. 17) but Ralph de
Turberville and Alice, from whom the manor took the name of Hemingford
Turberville, held it for a time. By 1242-3, however, Emma de Legh
held in Hemingford and Yelling three fees which probably represented
the whole property. (fn. 18) Her daughter and heir Nichola de Legh had
married Roger de Cauz, (fn. 19) and their daughter Emma (fn. 20)
married firstly John de Segrave, who died about 1230, when her marriage
was granted to her father-in-law Stephen de Segrave. (fn. 21) She
married secondly John de Grey, and was probably dead before 1256, when
the manor was settled with other lands on her second husband and their
son Reginald. (fn. 22) John de Grey died in 1266 and was succeeded by
Reginald his son, who was summoned to Parliament as Lord Grey [of
Wilton]. In 1286 he proved his descent from Ralf son of Osmund and
maintained his claim to view of frankpledge in the manor. (fn. 23) He
died in 1308 and was succeeded by his son John, (fn. 24) who in
1311-12 settled the manors of Hemingford Turberville and Yelling on
himself for life with remainder to his younger son Roger in tail with
contingent remainder to John son of Ralph Basset of Drayton and Ralph
brother of the said John. (fn. 25) He died in 1323, his son Henry being
his heir, but Hemingford and other lands passed under the settlement of
1311-12 to his younger son Roger, (fn. 26) who in 1351 became Lord
Grey of Ruthin. Roger, died seised of the manor of Hemingford Grey in
1353 and was succeeded by his eldest surviving son Sir Reginald de Grey
(fn. 27) (d. 1388), who settled the manor on his wife Eleanor (d.
1396). His son Reginald, as heir general of John de Hastings last Earl
of Pembroke through his grandmother Elizabeth daughter of Sir John de
Hastings, Lord of Abergavenny, (fn. 28) styled himself Lord Hastings.
He died in 1440 and was succeeded by his grandson Edmund, son of John
de Grey, who in 1465 was created Earl of Kent and died in 1490

From: 'Parishes: Hemingford Grey', A History of the County of
Huntingdonshire: Volume 2 (1932), pp. 309-14. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=42505. Date
accessed: 19 June 2006.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Will the real wife of John De GREY please stand up?

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 20 jun 2006 16:04:27

Dear Mep33 ~

The source which states that John de Grey, 2nd Lord Grey of Wilton
(died 1323) married (1st) Anne de Ferrers and (2nd) Maud Basset is the
faulty and unreliable Grey pedigree in the 1619 Visitation of
Leicestershire. It reads as follows:

"Joh'es Gray de Wilton filius Reginaldi ob. 16 E. 3, [1] = Anna
fil. D'ni Ferrers de Groby ux. 1, [2] = Matilda filia Rad'i D'ni
Basset de Blore ux. 2." [Reference: Lennard & Vincent, Vis. of
Leicester 1619 (H.S.P. 2) (1870): 74-75].

That John de Grey's sole wife was Maud de Verdun is proven by several
pieces of evidence. First, in 1276-7, Eleanor de Bohun, widow of John
de Verdun, settled lands in Debden, Essex on John de Grey, his wife,
Maud, and the heirs of Maud. This property was evidently intended as
Maud's maritagium, Maud being Eleanor de Bohun's own daughter.
Research indicates that this property had served as Eleanor de
Bohun's maritagium in the previous generation [Reference: Hagger,
Fortunes of a Norman Fam. (2001): 212]. The marriage of John and Maud
was apparently arranged when they were young children, as we know from
other records that John de Grey was born about 1268, he being aged 40
in 1308.

That Maud de Verdun was the mother of both of John de Grey's known
sons, Henry and Roger, is indicated by the fact that following John de
Grey's death in 1323, Henry and Roger fought over property rights in
Debden, Essex [Reference: Index of Placita de Banco 1327-1328 1 (PRO
Lists and Indexes 32) (1910): 143]. In later years, two of John and
Maud de Grey's grandchildren intermarried with the members of Bohun
family. Due to the closeness of kinship, dispensations had to be
obtained in both cases to allow the marriages to stand [see Papal
Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 349, 380, 398]. The degrees of kinship stated
in the dispensations indicate that Maud de Grey's mother, Eleanor de
Bohun, was the daughter of Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and
Essex (died 1275)].

That John de Grey had only one wife, not two, is indicated by more than
one record. First, there is a grant dated 1292-1293 to John de Grey
and his wife, Maud, of a release, indented, of land in Debden, Essex in
exchange for other land there [Reference: PRO Document, DL 25/1917
(abstract of document available online at
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp). Second, in
1310 John de Grey founded a collegiate church at Ruthin, Denbighshire.
In his charter of this date, he named his wife, Maud, and his parents,
Reynold and Maud de Grey [Reference: Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum
6(3) (1830): 1345-1346]. Third, in 1320 a chantry was established in
John de Grey's chapel at Thurleigh, Bedfordshire. The chantry was set
up for the welfare of the souls of various members of the Grey family,
including John de Grey himself; his wife, Maud [de Verdun]; his
parents, Reynold de Grey, 1st Lord Grey of Wilton, and his wife, Maud
[de Longchamp]; and his grandfather, John de Grey [Reference: Nicholas
Bennett, ed., The Registers of Bishop Henry Burghersh, 1320-1342
(Lincoln Record Soc. 90) (2003): 103-104]. For your interest, I've
copied the documents pertaining to the foundation of this chantry
below.

I should note that it is quite certain that Maud de Verdun's mother,
Eleanor, was a member of the Bohun family. Eleanor's surviving seal
displays the Verdun arms, aliong with her own Bohun arms, as indicated
below:

Seal of Eleanor de Verdun dated 1275-A shield of arms: per pale,
dex., fretty [VERDUN]; sin., a bend cotised between six lioncels
rampant [BOHUN] (each dimidiated). Suspended by a strap on a tree of
five branches. Between two cinquefoil roses. Within a carved rosette
of six cusped points) [Reference: Birch, Cat. of Seals in the British
Museum 3 (1894): 621].

Further particulars regarding the Grey family of Wilton, including a
review of the evidence for the identification of John de Grey's wife,
Maud de Verdun, can be found in my two books, Plantagenet Ancestry
(2004) and Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Document #1:

"1990. [fo 294r] Ordination, by Hugh prior and convent of Caldwell and
by John de Grey, lord of Dyffryn Clwyd, and Roger his son, of a chantry
in the chapel of the said John in his manor of Thurleigh, for the souls
of the said John, Matilda his wife, John his grandfather, Reginald his
father and Matilda his mother. The chantry is to be served by a canon
of the said priory or by another suitable chaplain. The priory is to
provide a missal, bread and wine, and candles; the said John and Roger
are to maintain the chapel, vestments, altar cloths, chalice and other
ornaments. John and Roger are also to provide for the chaplain a
chamber, where he can keep his harness while he is celebrating and
where he may sleep if by reason of sudden infirmity or bad weather he
needs to remain overnight, together with stabling and fodder for his
horse. The priory is bound by all its lands in its manors of Colesden
and Bromham, and John and Roger are bound in the sum of 50 marks, to
observe the terms of this ordination. Witnesses: William Inge kt;
Henry Spigurnel kt.; John de Pabenham kt.; John Cunquest kt.; John de
Morteyn kt.; Ralph son of Ralph son of Richard kt.; John Morice kt.;
Stephen le Creuker; William Bretevill; Henry de Legh; Robert de
Flaumvill; Roger le Mareschal; John son of William de Legh; Thomas de
Mordone, and others. Caldwell, 9 June 1320. Ratified by the bishop at
Meppershall, 1 July 1323 [Reference: The Registers of Bishop Henry
Burghersh, 1320-1342, edited by Nicholas Bennett (Lincoln Record Soc.
90) (2003): 103-104].

Document #2:

"1993. Ordination, by Hugh prior and convent of Caldwell, of a chantry
at altar of St. Peter in conventual church of Caldwell, for the souls
of Roger de Cauz. of John father of Reginald de Grey, of the said
Reginald de Grey and Matilda his wife, and of John de Grey their son
and Matilda his wife. The chantry is to be served by a canon of the
priory to by some other suitable chaplain, who is to celebrate mass on
Wednesday of each week for the souls aforesaid. The priory is bound in
its manor called Hermeter in Milton Ernest to observe the terms of this
ordination. Witnesses: Henry Spygurnel kt.; John Conquest kt.; Ralph
son of Ralph son of Richard kt.; Henry de la Legh; Stephen Creuker;
William Passelewe de Bromham; William de Brettevill, and others.
Caldwell, 9 June 1320. Ratified by the bishop at Meppershall, 1 July
1323." [Reference: The Registers of Bishop Henry Burghersh,
1320-1342, edited by Nicholas Bennett (Lincoln Record Soc. 90) (2003):
104].

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