"In Portugal, illegitimacy was not regarded as a material obstacle.
King John I. who was himself illegitimate, in a letter, dated 1416, to
Sir John Pelham, then a person of great eminence in the court of Henry
V. of England, desires him "to shew the ***Lady Beatrice his
daughter*** (being deprived of her husband the Earl of Arundel) the
same favour and affection he had before shewed to her, which he should
always gratefully acknowledge."
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... pher+brome
Is this evidence in re. Beatrice Fettiplace any good?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
John Brandon
Re: Is this evidence in re. Beatrice Fettiplace any good?
Oh, never mind.
http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN0 ... fettiplace
As Blanche Devereux said, "Bits and pieces ..."
http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN0 ... fettiplace
As Blanche Devereux said, "Bits and pieces ..."
-
Gjest
Re: Is this evidence in re. Beatrice Fettiplace any good?
I would say that illegitimacy in Portugal was a material obstacle but
not one that could not be removed by the King.
But that's not the most important point. Bea Fettiplace was not the
widow of the Earl of Arundel. If my memory doesn't fail me, Beatrice
(Arundel) married II Gilbert, Lord Talbot.
Beatrice Fettiplace that was referred as "daughter to Alphonsius king
of Portingall" could have been a descendant of king Afonso of Portugal
through his bastard son Afonso de Sousa Chichorro. This is far from
certain but just the best guess to explain why she used the arms of
king Afonso in the first quarter like other descents of Afonso de Sousa
Chichorro.
Regards,
Francisco
John Brandon escreveu:
not one that could not be removed by the King.
But that's not the most important point. Bea Fettiplace was not the
widow of the Earl of Arundel. If my memory doesn't fail me, Beatrice
(Arundel) married II Gilbert, Lord Talbot.
Beatrice Fettiplace that was referred as "daughter to Alphonsius king
of Portingall" could have been a descendant of king Afonso of Portugal
through his bastard son Afonso de Sousa Chichorro. This is far from
certain but just the best guess to explain why she used the arms of
king Afonso in the first quarter like other descents of Afonso de Sousa
Chichorro.
Regards,
Francisco
John Brandon escreveu:
"In Portugal, illegitimacy was not regarded as a material obstacle.
King John I. who was himself illegitimate, in a letter, dated 1416, to
Sir John Pelham, then a person of great eminence in the court of Henry
V. of England, desires him "to shew the ***Lady Beatrice his
daughter*** (being deprived of her husband the Earl of Arundel) the
same favour and affection he had before shewed to her, which he should
always gratefully acknowledge."
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... pher+brome
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Is this evidence in re. Beatrice Fettiplace any good?
In article <1150320969.260936.181210@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com wrote:
The two Beatrices' two husbands each are often confused. There's been
a fair amount of discussion here about them, a few years back. But I
think Planche had it right, in his article on Beatrice back in 1860.
One Beatrice, bastard of Joao I, married first Thomas, Earl of Arundel,
and second John Holand, Duke of Exeter; she d. 23 October 1439.
The other Beatrice, apparently a Sousa descendant of Alfonso III,
married first Gilbert, Lord Talbot (d. 1419), and secondly Sir Thomas
Fettiplace (by whom she had descendants, including Thomas Dudley,
governor of Massachusetts). Gilbert Talbot's brother and heir John was
created Earl of Shrewsbury, and this second Beatrice was in one
visitation erroneously called countess of Shrewsbury.
Leo's genealogics calls Gilbert Talbot's wife Beatrice Pinto, and does
not identify her with the Fettiplace wife, though matching up the
husbands is clear from a collation of the various visitations and the
known heraldic remains.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm
francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com wrote:
John Brandon escreveu:
"In Portugal, illegitimacy was not regarded as a material obstacle.
King John I. who was himself illegitimate, in a letter, dated 1416, to
Sir John Pelham, then a person of great eminence in the court of Henry
V. of England, desires him "to shew the ***Lady Beatrice his
daughter*** (being deprived of her husband the Earl of Arundel) the
same favour and affection he had before shewed to her, which he should
always gratefully acknowledge."
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... PA205&vq=h
ugh&dq=%22christopher+brome
I would say that illegitimacy in Portugal was a material obstacle but
not one that could not be removed by the King.
But that's not the most important point. Bea Fettiplace was not the
widow of the Earl of Arundel. If my memory doesn't fail me, Beatrice
(Arundel) married II Gilbert, Lord Talbot.
Beatrice Fettiplace that was referred as "daughter to Alphonsius king
of Portingall" could have been a descendant of king Afonso of Portugal
through his bastard son Afonso de Sousa Chichorro. This is far from
certain but just the best guess to explain why she used the arms of
king Afonso in the first quarter like other descents of Afonso de Sousa
Chichorro.
Regards,
Francisco
The two Beatrices' two husbands each are often confused. There's been
a fair amount of discussion here about them, a few years back. But I
think Planche had it right, in his article on Beatrice back in 1860.
One Beatrice, bastard of Joao I, married first Thomas, Earl of Arundel,
and second John Holand, Duke of Exeter; she d. 23 October 1439.
The other Beatrice, apparently a Sousa descendant of Alfonso III,
married first Gilbert, Lord Talbot (d. 1419), and secondly Sir Thomas
Fettiplace (by whom she had descendants, including Thomas Dudley,
governor of Massachusetts). Gilbert Talbot's brother and heir John was
created Earl of Shrewsbury, and this second Beatrice was in one
visitation erroneously called countess of Shrewsbury.
Leo's genealogics calls Gilbert Talbot's wife Beatrice Pinto, and does
not identify her with the Fettiplace wife, though matching up the
husbands is clear from a collation of the various visitations and the
known heraldic remains.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Is this evidence in re. Beatrice Fettiplace any good?
In article <044c01c69024$7c682420$0300a8c0@Toshiba>,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:
Yes; the Burke's or CP write-up is based on the 1860 Planche article,
which mentions the Pinto possibility but seems to lean toward Sousa. I
drafted in 2002 a discussion of the extant relevant heraldry (largely
from Planche) and visitation references, following a thread on her in
sgm, but never really edited it as a real paper. It is at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... iplace.pdf
The upshot is that the convergence of the heraldry and the garbled
visitation references seem to favor her being a descendant of Affonso
III in the Sousa line. Remember Chico and others posted a fair amount
on this.
She is one of a fair-sized clutch of Iberian gateway women marrying into
English noble families in the period 1370-1420 (including the daughters
of Pedro the Cruel, the other Beatrice, Sancha de Ayala, etc.). It
would be interesting to have a short prosopography of this cohort.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:
Dear Nat,
When I entered Beatrix Pinto, I used the 1938 edition of Burke's Peerage
(Page 2236) where she is named Beatrix of the illustrious house of Pinto. As
later Burke's have made corrections, I looked at the 1999 edition, page
2604, and there it is slightly different.
Gilbert Talbot married twice, each time after the number is a question mark,
b y the first wife it has (certainly betrothed to), but" the second is
Beatrix , of Portugal, possibly a member of the prominent Pinto family but
possibly also of a line descended illegitimately from Alfonso III of
Portugal". It doesn't say anything about Beatrix marrying again, but as a
second wife, this is quite to be expected.
Apologies for not having followed properly this whole line. Probably you
have already looked at CP? Volume XII/1 pages 618/619 also maintains that
Gilbert was only engaged to Joan of Gloucester. "He married about 1415,
Beatrice, a Portuguese lady, perhaps of the family of Pinto (footnote *D*,
huge and refers to her seal) This footnote also spells out how heraldic
indications align her with the Pinto family and that she may be a daughter
or granddaughter of Lope Dias de Souza grandson of an illegitimate son of
Alfonso III. The coat of arms is described as _gules five crescents in
saltire argent_
Hope this helps.
Yes; the Burke's or CP write-up is based on the 1860 Planche article,
which mentions the Pinto possibility but seems to lean toward Sousa. I
drafted in 2002 a discussion of the extant relevant heraldry (largely
from Planche) and visitation references, following a thread on her in
sgm, but never really edited it as a real paper. It is at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... iplace.pdf
The upshot is that the convergence of the heraldry and the garbled
visitation references seem to favor her being a descendant of Affonso
III in the Sousa line. Remember Chico and others posted a fair amount
on this.
She is one of a fair-sized clutch of Iberian gateway women marrying into
English noble families in the period 1370-1420 (including the daughters
of Pedro the Cruel, the other Beatrice, Sancha de Ayala, etc.). It
would be interesting to have a short prosopography of this cohort.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Is this evidence in re. Beatrice Fettiplace any good?
Dear Nat,
When I entered Beatrix Pinto, I used the 1938 edition of Burke's Peerage
(Page 2236) where she is named Beatrix of the illustrious house of Pinto. As
later Burke's have made corrections, I looked at the 1999 edition, page
2604, and there it is slightly different.
Gilbert Talbot married twice, each time after the number is a question mark,
b y the first wife it has (certainly betrothed to), but" the second is
Beatrix , of Portugal, possibly a member of the prominent Pinto family but
possibly also of a line descended illegitimately from Alfonso III of
Portugal". It doesn't say anything about Beatrix marrying again, but as a
second wife, this is quite to be expected.
Apologies for not having followed properly this whole line. Probably you
have already looked at CP? Volume XII/1 pages 618/619 also maintains that
Gilbert was only engaged to Joan of Gloucester. "He married about 1415,
Beatrice, a Portuguese lady, perhaps of the family of Pinto (footnote *D*,
huge and refers to her seal) This footnote also spells out how heraldic
indications align her with the Pinto family and that she may be a daughter
or granddaughter of Lope Dias de Souza grandson of an illegitimate son of
Alfonso III. The coat of arms is described as _gules five crescents in
saltire argent_
Hope this helps.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: Is this evidence in re. Beatrice Fettiplace any good?
When I entered Beatrix Pinto, I used the 1938 edition of Burke's Peerage
(Page 2236) where she is named Beatrix of the illustrious house of Pinto. As
later Burke's have made corrections, I looked at the 1999 edition, page
2604, and there it is slightly different.
Gilbert Talbot married twice, each time after the number is a question mark,
b y the first wife it has (certainly betrothed to), but" the second is
Beatrix , of Portugal, possibly a member of the prominent Pinto family but
possibly also of a line descended illegitimately from Alfonso III of
Portugal". It doesn't say anything about Beatrix marrying again, but as a
second wife, this is quite to be expected.
Apologies for not having followed properly this whole line. Probably you
have already looked at CP? Volume XII/1 pages 618/619 also maintains that
Gilbert was only engaged to Joan of Gloucester. "He married about 1415,
Beatrice, a Portuguese lady, perhaps of the family of Pinto (footnote *D*,
huge and refers to her seal) This footnote also spells out how heraldic
indications align her with the Pinto family and that she may be a daughter
or granddaughter of Lope Dias de Souza grandson of an illegitimate son of
Alfonso III. The coat of arms is described as _gules five crescents in
saltire argent_
Hope this helps.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: Is this evidence in re. Beatrice Fettiplace any good?
In article <1150320969.260936.181210@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com wrote:
John Brandon escreveu:
"In Portugal, illegitimacy was not regarded as a material obstacle.
King John I. who was himself illegitimate, in a letter, dated 1416, to
Sir John Pelham, then a person of great eminence in the court of Henry
V. of England, desires him "to shew the ***Lady Beatrice his
daughter*** (being deprived of her husband the Earl of Arundel) the
same favour and affection he had before shewed to her, which he should
always gratefully acknowledge."
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... PA205&vq=h
ugh&dq=%22christopher+brome
I would say that illegitimacy in Portugal was a material obstacle but
not one that could not be removed by the King.
But that's not the most important point. Bea Fettiplace was not the
widow of the Earl of Arundel. If my memory doesn't fail me, Beatrice
(Arundel) married II Gilbert, Lord Talbot.
Beatrice Fettiplace that was referred as "daughter to Alphonsius king
of Portingall" could have been a descendant of king Afonso of Portugal
through his bastard son Afonso de Sousa Chichorro. This is far from
certain but just the best guess to explain why she used the arms of
king Afonso in the first quarter like other descents of Afonso de Sousa
Chichorro.
Regards,
Francisco
The two Beatrices' two husbands each are often confused. There's been
a fair amount of discussion here about them, a few years back. But I
think Planche had it right, in his article on Beatrice back in 1860.
One Beatrice, bastard of Joao I, married first Thomas, Earl of Arundel,
and second John Holand, Duke of Exeter; she d. 23 October 1439.
The other Beatrice, apparently a Sousa descendant of Alfonso III,
married first Gilbert, Lord Talbot (d. 1419), and secondly Sir Thomas
Fettiplace (by whom she had descendants, including Thomas Dudley,
governor of Massachusetts). Gilbert Talbot's brother and heir John was
created Earl of Shrewsbury, and this second Beatrice was in one
visitation erroneously called countess of Shrewsbury.
Leo's genealogics calls Gilbert Talbot's wife Beatrice Pinto, and does
not identify her with the Fettiplace wife, though matching up the
husbands is clear from a collation of the various visitations and the
known heraldic remains.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm