Weird question

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Leo van de Pas

Weird question

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 14 jun 2006 11:00:02

On the Camden Roll, circa 1280, all kinds of people are mentioned and some I really wonder who they were, for instance

King of Griffony

Duc de Venise

Would anyone have an idea who these two were?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Gjest

Re: Weird question

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 jun 2006 11:32:48

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
On the Camden Roll, circa 1280, all kinds of people are mentioned and some I really wonder who they were, for instance

King of Griffony

Duc de Venise

The Doge (Dux) of Venice, presumably

Would anyone have an idea who these two were?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Matt Tompkins

Re: Weird question

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 14 jun 2006 11:35:15

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
On the Camden Roll, circa 1280, all kinds of people are mentioned and some I really wonder who they were, for instance

King of Griffony

Duc de Venise

Would anyone have an idea who these two were?


Dear Leo,

in the medieval period Greeks were sometimes called Griffons, so this
must be the King of Greece. Exactly who that might have been in 1280,
I'm not sure, but it may not have been a real person - the arms
ascribed to him in the Roll (Azure, a griffon segreant or) are so
appropriate they look mythical.

Could the Duc de Venise be the Doge of Venice (Venise is French for
Venice, and I have an idea doge was sometimes translated as duke)? The
arms given in the Roll (Gules, a castle argent) haven't ever been the
civic arms of Venice itself, so far as I'm aware, but maybe they were
the family arms of an individual doge.

It might be worth posting the question on rec-heraldry.

Regards,

Matt Tompkins

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Weird question

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 14 jun 2006 17:16:59

In article <03ef01c68f90$97d921d0$0300a8c0@Toshiba>,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:

On the Camden Roll, circa 1280, all kinds of people are mentioned and some I
really wonder who they were, for instance

King of Griffony

Duc de Venise

Would anyone have an idea who these two were?

I expect the Venetian is the doge, though the arms (de gules od un
chastel d'argent) must be personal arms of that particular doge as it is
not the lion of Saint Mark. The doges in 1280 were Jacopo Contarini and
then Giovanni Dandolo. Reviewing the list of doges in the later 13th c.
(Capelli's Cronologia, p. 346) and looking up their arms might reveal a
match.

'Le rey de Griffonie' is a stumper, though. Arms are 'de azure od un
griffun d'or', and I have no idea who or what a gold griffon on blue
would be for.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Gjest

Re: Weird question

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 jun 2006 18:46:35

None of the doges posted by Nat had such arms.
You can see their arms (just before my ggggfather's Piero Gradenigo)
here:
http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Re ... nise_2.htm

But please note that the Grand Arms of Venice (XVIIIth century) do have
a quarter that goes with that description and belongs to the town of
Feltre.
http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Re ... Venise.htm

Francisco




"Leo van de Pas" escreveu:
On the Camden Roll, circa 1280, all kinds of people are mentioned and some I really wonder who they were, for instance

King of Griffony

Duc de Venise

Would anyone have an idea who these two were?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

CE Wood

Re: Weird question

Legg inn av CE Wood » 14 jun 2006 20:47:02

I find the below interesting. It is from "Knight of Mystery" Adventure
by William Dymock:

"Met up with our party employer, Simon Halset Valmar, and were told our
mission which was to follow a certain knight, Sir Harold of Mulvania,
and find out just what he's up to....He told us that Sir Harold would
be easily recognised by his device, a gold griffon rampant on a blue
background."

But, more seriously, from The Gryphon in Heraldry at
http://www.gryphonpages.com/heraldry/

"(There is also another commonly used term called proper, which simply
denotes the charge's natural color. A Griffin proper would be a gold
Gryphon.) Thus we see that the arms of Read family has two distinct
tinctures, Azure a Griffin rampant Or....If we were to transpose Read
family arms into layman's terms, then it would be: On a blue
background, there is a golden griffin standing up on one hind leg."

"A couchant (lying down on all fours with an erect head) Gryphon is
portrayed on the seal of Richard de Redvers, Earl of Exeter, and dated
back to 1162, is the earliest example of the Gryphon's use as a charge
or at least a symbol. (Heraldry itself is presumed to have begun in the
mid-Twelfth Century.) In fact, the Gryphon may have been used by the
Redvers (Reviers, Rivers) family before that. It is said that another
Richard de Redvers, who died in 1107, had the arms granted Gules a
Griffin segreant Or. (Note the extreme similarity to the arms of Read,
above. The only difference is in the color of the background. This was
a common and most confusing occurrence in early heraldry.)"

CE Wood

francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com wrote:
None of the doges posted by Nat had such arms.
You can see their arms (just before my ggggfather's Piero Gradenigo)
here:
http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Re ... nise_2.htm

But please note that the Grand Arms of Venice (XVIIIth century) do have
a quarter that goes with that description and belongs to the town of
Feltre.
http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Re ... Venise.htm

Francisco




"Leo van de Pas" escreveu:
On the Camden Roll, circa 1280, all kinds of people are mentioned and some I really wonder who they were, for instance

King of Griffony

Duc de Venise

Would anyone have an idea who these two were?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

CE Wood

Re: Weird question

Legg inn av CE Wood » 15 jun 2006 00:37:32

Further to my earlier post, another site which also has jpgs
(http://www.heraldry.ws/index.html), the described arms are attributed
to "Read [Dunboyne Co. Meath]."

CE Wood


Matt Tompkins wrote:
"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
On the Camden Roll, circa 1280, all kinds of people are mentioned and some I really wonder who they were, for instance

King of Griffony

Duc de Venise

Would anyone have an idea who these two were?


Dear Leo,

in the medieval period Greeks were sometimes called Griffons, so this
must be the King of Greece. Exactly who that might have been in 1280,
I'm not sure, but it may not have been a real person - the arms
ascribed to him in the Roll (Azure, a griffon segreant or) are so
appropriate they look mythical.

Could the Duc de Venise be the Doge of Venice (Venise is French for
Venice, and I have an idea doge was sometimes translated as duke)? The
arms given in the Roll (Gules, a castle argent) haven't ever been the
civic arms of Venice itself, so far as I'm aware, but maybe they were
the family arms of an individual doge.

It might be worth posting the question on rec-heraldry.

Regards,

Matt Tompkins

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